Taking Input on New Character Idea - Troubadour

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  • 8 + crown. Everyone else has to deal with it that way. We have enough special treatments and ways to bend the rules. Our leadership should function pretty similar to WDG.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Klexe wrote:

    Raughri wrote:

    I'm not a fan of armies that can take a mage as a general, without suffering a proper leadership penalty.
    Which is way all wizard armies have Ld 8 and normal have Ld 9
    But currently KoE has Ld 7 /9
    As only army over all 9th age.

    The reasoning from Frederick was: "she is a girl that's why" (no joke)

    If Damsel gets access to Ld 8 it is viable but like you said worse then a fighter.

    Also themed armies can be possible.

    A witch taking over KoE aka Morgana?
    I don't care what other armies can do.

    Leadership 8 isn't a proper leadership penalty, it is a slight leadership penalty.

    A prelate isn't a wizard.

    I don't mind, when they come to the themed armies, there being an option to take a better leadership damsel, who is evil, at the expense of losing the grail oath from the army, or something like that.
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    Live in London or the South East? Fancy a weekend in the big smoke? Come and take part in our two day singles tournament in Bromley on 26-27 May, 2018.

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/
  • Kratos wrote:

    discipline 8 is what our knights have. Is not enough.

    If you want a damsel general with dis 8 you already can do that woth crown of autocrazy. No one does because 8 is not enough
    That why I hope for next hotfix for an item for Damsel Ld 8 with option of crown for Ld 9 as every other army


    Raughri

    As I don't care for fluff and only wrote it because some other do like it I fully disagree with your sentence there.

    First of all why should we the only army with only Ld 7 without an option for Ld 8?

    For me EoS battle shrine or prelate are wizards.
    I don't care what they are called. They do stuff in the magic phase and you can play 2 of them and have a decent magic phase together with many bound spells.
    Too close to home; too lightly guarded!

  • Klexe wrote:

    The reasoning from Frederick was: "she is a girl that's why" (no joke)

    Duke Niemar wrote:

    Frederick sounds a bit sexist.
    Exactly my thoughts, if this is true! I'm not sure if Damsels should be LD8 or not but for the official line from the project to be "she's a girl, so she can't lead" is frankly a disgusting position and unacceptable in this day and age.

    @Frederick - Please can you clear this up ASAP?
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • I get it Klexe, you are always looking at other armies and comparing. That is fine. I don't do that. So your argument about how X army can do Y, is never going to resonate with me.

    You are the master of external balance, I am the conduit of internal balance! :thumbsup:

    It is like the Emperor and Yoda (one the master of outer space and the other the master of inner space)*.

    *Hat tip to the film Human Traffic
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    Live in London or the South East? Fancy a weekend in the big smoke? Come and take part in our two day singles tournament in Bromley on 26-27 May, 2018.

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/
  • Come on now i seriously doubt that a grown man with life experience would use “she’s just a girl” as a reason. Guys do not exaggerate or mislead Or you will be taken less seriously in the future.

    Now, if he meant that in the fluff, she’s simply not a military commander, but just a magic student, then I understand his point of view.

    HOWEVER, I’ve said it in another forum, a hot girl will inspire me more than any dude can. So yeah the last thing I want to do is look pitiful or deafeated in front of her. So in terms of fluff her inspirating presence should add +2 to discipline to other units even if hers remains 7/8
  • Exactly we don't know his intention all in all it could be a joke. Don't forget we are Germans.

    But currently since over a year I want the same treatment as other armies.

    When the old master wizard vanished and only 1 wizard entry was left all armies had Ld 8 while KoE as only one has Ld 7
    Eos too and goblins but these have orcs and prelates.

    I can see the problem with peasants Ld 8+ wizard bunker. That is why I asked for unicorn Ld 8 since a long time.

    The most offical answer I got was:

    Because she is a girl


    Dont forget the talk was like 3 sentences before he sweep the floor with me
    Too close to home; too lightly guarded!

  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Come on now i seriously doubt that a grown man with life experience would use “she’s just a girl” as a reason. Guys do not exaggerate or mislead Or you will be taken less seriously in the future.
    Which is why I asked for clarification on this. I'm hoping that the comments are being taken out of context or otherwise. I'm more than happy for @Frederick to clarify and explain the reason for LD7 Damsels.

    Marcos24 wrote:

    HOWEVER, I’ve said it in another forum, a hot girl will inspire me more than any dude can. So yeah the last thing I want to do is look pitiful or deafeated in front of her. So in terms of fluff her inspirating presence should add +2 to discipline to other units even if hers remains 7/8
    Not only that but a Damsel is a representative of the lady of the lake. So Knights have 2 reasons to be inspired by a damsel's presence.

    Having said all that, I don't want them to be come more expensive, which they will be with LD8 (peasants can and will benefit, even if knights can't) so I have mixed feelings about this. I'd much rather keep LD7 and the current cost even if I understand the reasons for moving to LD8.

    If we really must add something to make her more fluffy in inspiring the knights, make her give battle focus to her unit. That rule would be fluffy as her inspiring the knights to great deeds (or show off for her benefit). I might cry when I see the cost of this though! :P
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • some old ideas

    Digger wrote:

    Blissfull greetings to all you Noble Knights!

    This i must share with thee
    Although the odds speak against it, i see a possibilty
    For i have searched all the lands
    For the written wisdoms by your hands

    There are ideas aplenty as you will see
    Here gathered those on how Bards could be.
    perhaps add your proposals please feel free.

    So hand us your thoughts, what say ye?


    And perhaps, one day, we will be filled with glee
    As this gets past both the ABC AND RT!



    There are scores of Bards, troubadours, minstrels and other fancy musician models out there.
    Maybe you'd like to share one of your own?

    Possible ways to implement a Bard, Jester or Troubadour:
    - as character - A Hero Choice.
    upside: it could buy upgrades like normal human beings,
    downside: unlikely to be implemented in the near future. There is no lack of heroes in KoE armybook.

    - As upgrade for a Musician
    upside: fluffy. each knightly unit could have the option.
    downside: cannot be targeted like a character.

    - As upgrade for a Champion model
    upside: can be targeted like anyone else.
    downside: a champion and a jester dont usually go well together.

    - As 4th command Model
    upside: you could start a whole band in each unit
    downside: another command model to split attacks to, gets too messy.

    - As Rare choice
    upside: there's a cry out for more rare options. This could be one of them
    downside: Rare Options don't usually join other units. We don't need a second reliquaery



    Next few posts: A summary of all ideas made lately.

    Digger wrote:

    Proposals:

    By Voltek-

    Hero- Bard
    M: 4 WS: 4 BS: 3 S: 4 T: 4 W: 2 I: 4 A: 2 LD: 7
    Light Armor
    Options for a Mount
    Options for a Vow (wouldnt come with Oath of Fealty would have to pay points to be a Knight Bard, but wouldn't be insignificant either)
    Songs of Legend: The Bard can play 1 song choosing at the start of each
    turn, the songs effects remain in play until the next turn.
    Tale of Discord: Target enemy unit within 9" suffer -1 to their LD if they have been charged, in addition lose Parry and the Spears lethal Strike ability
    Armor of God: Target unit cancels any incoming Divine attacks (making them mundane attacks) in addition may reroll 1's on Ward Saves from any ranged attacks.
    The Last Charge: Target Unit may reroll failed Charge Rolls.
    Tales of Heroism: Target Character gains +1 Attack and +1 WS in Challenges


    by Echoctrl

    echoctrl wrote:

    Troubadours in Hero Section
    Valourous Ballads: At the start of each turn, you may declare
    which song the Troubadour is singing. The effects of that song
    last until the start of your next turn – you may then
    have the Troubadour continue singing the same song, or choose
    another. Any unit joined by a Troubadour can only receive the benefits of one song at any time. A Troubadour can only sing one song at once, and will cease singing immediately if he flees or is slain.

     Trobar Battle-hymn: The Troubadour adds +D3 combat resolution to any close combat he is in.

     The Lady's Canso: While he sings this song, the Ward save from the Blessing is increased to a 4+ against hits in close combat for the Troubadour and models in the unit the Troubadour is joined to.

     The Anthem of Occitan: A Troubadour and any unit he has joined are Stubborn.


    Troubadour: Not a Leader, Beloved, The Blessing, Musician, The Lance, Oath of Fealty

    M WS BS S T W I A LD
    4 4 3 4 4 2 4 2 8

    Heavy Armor, Shield, Lance, Barding, Mounts Protection
    And by Taki

    Taki wrote:

    M 4 WS 4 BS4 S4 T4 i4 W2 A2 Ld8

    Special Rules: Counts as a Musician, units auto pass swift reform tests with this model in the unit
    Choose one of the following

    Knight Troubador gains Oath of Fealty, Heavy armor, choice of standard knightly weapons and vows, blessing

    Traveling Minstrel Insignificant, light armor, blessing(for the Lady loves art), and serf weapon options
    Choose one of the following upgrades

    Fool in motley (travelling minstrel only) units that include this model are immune to fear

    Poet (Knight Troubador only) units that include this model ignore divine attacks

    Lutist units that include this model may reroll panic tests and failed rally tests

    Bard units that include this model gain an addition 25 VP for capturing standards

    Dan wrote:

    have him choose a tune at the beginning of each turn to confer a benefit to the unit he's with.

    Song of Tribulations: Until the start of the player's next turn, the unit may re-roll any failed ward saves.
    Song of Heroism: Unit gains +4 Initiative when charging for the rest of the turn.
    Song of Action: Unit gains +2 movement for the remainder of the turn.

    Caledoriv wrote:

    I'm quoting myself for this:
    Caledoriv wrote:
    KoE have a quite limited choice of units. Some customizing for the units would grant them more variety and some more versatility.

    Here's a proposition of what I'd change regarding this matter:
    As for the problems of the knight units:
    1) Depend on the charge
    2) Charge gets dimished by Parry
    3) Knights can get slaughtered by higher initiative models before they strike

    These are the problems I'd tackle with the often proposed Bard:
    - Knight Champions can be upgraded to become bards (for 25 points).
    On any turn the unit charges, the bard may sing one of the following songs that affect every model in the unit (mounts are not affected):
    1) Song of Valour: The minimal charge range of the unit is increased to 7".
    2) Song of the Dragonslayer: Enemy models may not use Parry against attacks made by affected parts of models.
    3) Song of Righteousness: Affected parts of Models gain +2 Initiative to a maximum of 5.

    In my opinion, these buffs are not overpowered, but deal with some issues our knights have:
    1) Even with the minimum charge range of 4", it is possible to fail a charge. This esentially ensures our knights can charge infantry units without fearing to fail this important dice roll.
    2) Units with Parry are usually quite large. This way our charge stays powerful against such units - because outside the charge our units aren't that powerful and will simple get stuck in parrying units.
    3) Elves and other elite troops can attack before our knights and thus reduce our offensive output on the charge. With this change, knights strike at the same time as core elves, while elite elves are still faster.
    Regarding the point cost, I'm thinking of something like 20 to 30 points, which leads to a total cost of ~60 points for the champion model alone.

    I have the impression new units are no option at this moment in time. Therefore, I believe an upgrade for a command group model is the way to go (at least for now).

    Kratos wrote:

    I think it would be too late even for upgrade to command group option.

    The ignore Parry thing has been requested several times, but always denied. So not sure if we should ask it again.

    I got a draft ready for Bard as character option. But will have to wait after ETC probably, and need loooots of tuning.

    This was my first idea:



    Selo's should be changed to:

    +1 movement, +1 initative, Unit attacks as if they were weilding Paired Weapons. Or something else probably.

    BTW love that:

    3. supportive (as he throws insults and rocks, his unit gains distracting, while the enemy unit gains -1 ws and hatred)

    And will try to squeeze it in somehow xD

    tulmir wrote:

    What do you think about these songs? I like more fluffy songs:

    Song of Valour: If unit charges to an enemy with Undead or Otherworldly special rule, adds 2" to his charge roll (offense)
    Song of Shine: Enemy attacks with one less rank if it base to base with the unit (defense)
    Song of Order: Unit may ignore dangerous terrains (movement phase+defense)

    Marcos24 wrote:

    Song of Faith: Re-roll failed ward saves
    Song of Fury: +2 initiative in first round of combat in which unit has charged

    Manteuffel wrote:

    Wonderful, really needed in some way. If adding a unit is an issue, I see a couple of options:

    1. make a paladin option, but then paladin cannot take lance or great weapon.
    2. make an option for the Sacred Reliqary.

    I would not mind see something like the following:

    Song of Lancelot: reroll 1s on hits.
    Song of Galahad: reroll 1s on armor saves.
    Song of Percival: opponents reroll 6s on wounds.

    Each it not too powerful, so should not be too expensive. Alternatively, put them all together into one ability and raise cost.

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  • Wouldn't it be too good if on Cavalry? However looking at the other stuff I had in mind with a Close Combat only Blessing, maybe not. Of course, do the horses get inspired by the song?

    March to Bastogne (00 pts)
    Models in the Troubadour's unit that are not mounted gain +2 to March Rate. Models in the Troubadour’s unit that are mounted must reroll failed rolls for Charge Range.


    So you think Parry is cheaper than Distracting?

    Army Design Team

    :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
  • echoctrl wrote:

    Wouldn't it be too good if on Cavalry? However looking at the other stuff I had in mind with a Close Combat only Blessing, maybe not. Of course, do the horses get inspired by the song?

    March to Bastogne (00 pts)
    Models in the Troubadour's unit that are not mounted gain +2 to March Rate. Models in the Troubadour’s unit that are mounted must reroll failed rolls for Charge Range.


    So you think Parry is cheaper than Distracting?
    Parry would be quite useless only vs ws 5+.

    I would go +2DWS as it is same as parry EXPECT trash OWs2 hit us on 5+.

    Distracting is too good.


    Wouldn't it be too good if on Cavalry? However looking at the other stuff I had in mind with a Close Combat only Blessing, maybe not. Of course, do the horses get inspired by the song?

    dont get this sentence


    Bastogne is decent now. But i would make it +1 Move and +2 March perhaps?
    See no real reason to play him inside a example Forlorn unit.
    Too close to home; too lightly guarded!

  • insignificant Troubadour, really? I thought we are talking about adding something for cavalry units in a cavalry army? Why I need to pay extra tax to make one of my character cavalry?

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  • @tulmir, you don't have to pay a tax. He can join a Knight unit even as Insignificant. Insignificant characters can join units without insignificant.

    This is the actual rule.

    20.A.15 InsignificantUnits consisting entirely of models with Insignificant do not cause Panic Tests.on friendly units without Insignificant.Only Insignificant Characters can join units with Insignificant R&F models.


    The Damsel is also Insignificant.

    Not having Oath of Fealty means he is not a Lord entitled to land and so is not sworn to fealty. It doesn't mean he is not a noble. You can narrate that the model is or isn't a noble depending on your preference.

    Army Design Team

    :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
  • It is not about to join or not; it is about the background/fluff of the character/hero. He can not be insignificant as a knightly character. He should have at least oath of fealty in order to be an actual Troubadour. It is better for foot units also if he has fealty

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