Duel Alteration

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  • Duel Alteration

    13.D Duels
    13.D.a Issuing a Duel
    Characters and Champions Engaged in a Combat may issue a Duel at step 4 3 of the Round of Combat Sequence (seesection 13.C “Round of Combat Sequence”, page 48), the Active Player may nominate one of their Characters orChampions and Issue a Duel, provided that there is at least one enemy Champion or Character able to accept it(this enemy model’s unit must be in base contact with the challenging model’s unit and there must be no currently ongoingDuel in this combat; see below).
    If no Duel was issued, the Reactive Player may nominate one of their Characters orChampions and issue a Duel.


    13.D.b Accepting or Refusing a Duel
    If a Duel was issued, the opposing player may now choose one of their own Characters or Champions Engaged in thesame Combat to accept the Duel and fight the Character or Champion that issued the Duel. The model that acceptsthe Duel must be in a unit that is in base contact with the model that issued the Duel, or its unit.

    If a Duel isn’t accepted it is said to be refused. The player issuing the Duel now nominates one of their opponent’sCharacters models, which could have Accepted the Duel, if there is any (note that Champions cannot be nominated). Thismodel’s Discipline is set to 0 and it (and its unit) cannot use the Character model’s StubbornUniversal Rule (if it has it) untilthe end of the Player Turn in which the combat ends (or until the Character Accepts or Issues a Duel). Additionally, itcannot make any Melee Attacks during this Round of Combat, loses Rally Around the Flagand, if it’s a Battle StandardBearer, doesn’t add +1 to its side’s Combat Score during this Round of Combat.


    13.D.c Fighting a Duel
    If the Duel was accepted, the model that Issued the Duel and the model that Accepted the Duel count as being inbase contact with each other (even if their bases are not physically touching each other) and must allocate all theirClose Combat Attacks towards each other. Melee Attacks made towards a unit as a whole (such as Breath Attacks,Impact Hits, Grind Attacks, Stomp Attacks) can only be distributed function normally with one hit always being allocated onto the opposing duellist. Melee Attacks made atspecific models (such as all models in base contact) are unaffected and work as normal. No other model can allocateattacks towards either of these models and but attacks/hits from Melee Attacks can never be distributed onto a modelthat is fighting a Duel. If one of the models is killed in the Melee Phase before the other model had a chance to make all its Melee Attacks (it’s a common situation with Characters with more than one Agility value, such as a rider andits mount or a model with Stomp Attacks), any of the attacks not yet carried out can and must be directed at thekilled model, as if it was still alive and in base contact, in order to get an Overkill bonus.

    If at the end of the round one of the models is killed, Breaks or if the combat ends for any reason (including combat being divided throughSplitting Combat), the Duel is considered to be over at the end of the Phase. If neither model is killed before the nextRound of Combat, the Duel continues.
    No Duel can be issued in the same combat until one of the models is killed.


    13.D.d Overkill
    During a Duel, any excess Health Point losses caused count towards the Combat Score, up to a maximum of +3 5.

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    Summary of changes:
    • Duels are Issued before characters and models Make Way
      This is to give more of a benefit to clever tactical movement and require the defensive player to have their model already in a position to fight
    • The Character/Champion wishing to accept the duel must be in base contact with the issuers unit
      This is in combination with the above order change so the attacker is more able to benefit from clever tactical movement and requires the defensive player to have their model already in a position to fight, it also prevents attackers from declaring challenges they know the enemy will be forced to decline just to make the enemy lose whatever benefits that model provided
    • Attacks distributed to the unit function normally
      This is mostly to prevent duels being used to deny attacks from model types that would ordinarily be able to inflict them on the unit, eg. Impact Hits from a Chariot
      It also means you can hit the enemy duellist with your own special attacks eg. Impact hits from a Chariot
    • The Overkill bonus is boosted slightly
      This is to give more of a benefit to fighting in a duel with a mount to offset how you'll probably do less overall damage, it also means the more powerful opponents lose less combat ability while fighting in a duel and encourages them to actively participate in them
    Additional thoughts:
    • It might be worth giving a bonus amount of Victory Points to models who win Duels as a means to getting players to want to declare them
    • There might be an issue with models like Ogres who have a single stomp attack who can stomp an enemy duellist
    • Steadfast still exists to allow ranked units the ability to not easily break when faced with an especially dangerous unranked opponent
    • Beast type models may potentially be disallowed from issuing/accepting Duels as they're not intelligent enough to understand the concept
    • Especially hard to hurt opponents may need de-powering on a case by case basis
    • Maybe we let anything considered a Monster or Gigantic in size to be allowed to ignore issued Duels
    Your own thoughts and comments are welcome!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by theunwantedbeing ().

  • Thoughts on proposed changes:

    • Duels are Issued before characters and models Make Way
      I think that this is a brilliant solution. But, it still doesn't resolve the problem of 5 wide spears challenging a dragon since the champ can sit in the middle and the dragon can't avoid him. But it does work if the dragon makes a flank or rear charge and that is probably a good trade off (nothing is free). I can see that there are still issues with chariots since they do not posses the mobility to easily get flank or rear charges and the majority of their power is through the impact hits But then again its only bad against a deep unit which would historically be bad anyway.
    • The Character/Champion wishing to accept the duel must be in base contact with the issuers unit
      See above
    • Attacks distributed to the unit function normally
      This is potentially the nail in the coffin of this proposal. Because with this addition it doesn't matter if I position my dragon straight in your front, even if you issue a duel and I will still pulp the unit. In fact if you do issue a duel with your champion you will get 0 attacks at me whilst I will get +3/5 overkill as well as a stomp onto the unit, Hence there is now a 0% chance of issuing or accepting challenges that you are likely to lose. I honestly think that this needs to be restricted to exclusively impact hits at a minimum or more probably just removed altogether. The positioning rules from above reward tactical play for both the attacker and the defender. With the right positioning you can avoid or force a challenge bait. But with this rule none of it matters. And honestly even in the case of the chariot you are rewarded for getting to the sides or flank but you are also more effective at units that are wide enough to avoid a champion. But note that the unit needs to be at least 8 wide for a 50mm base to avoid a 20mm champion
    • The Overkill bonus is boosted slightly
      I also think that this is an unnecessary change. With the first two rules in place you have the options to avoid being challenged baited. If anything, given the above rules I would almost say that the reverse needs to happen and overkill should removed or reduced. It was required before as you could always be challenged and then you could win the challenge but lose the combat and be run down. But now that there are so many more options for avoiding the challenge you don't need to further punish the loser of a challenge. If anything I would replace overkill with some combination of the following:
      "The losers becomes shaken"
      "The winners receive 200 vp's"

    #freekillerinstinct
  • It's true that changing when the duels are issued doesn't solve all the issues with the various unit types, hence the other changes.

    The attack distribution effects not being limited to those in the duels is a required fix for things like Chariots, so it's extended to all the other special attacks because it's nice and simple to just group everything together in a general core rule and any issues can be dealt with on a case by case basis.

    The overkill buff is specifically there to make sure you can't suck a hero into a fight too easily that they cannot win (or can only fail).
    At the moment it's +4 combat res from being charged and duelled, whereas a unit will beat that by 1 when charging and you auto-lose.
    Up it to +5 and now you need a magic banner +1 to simply guarantee a draw.

    duxbuse wrote:

    Thoughts on proposed changes:
    • The Overkill bonus is boosted slightly
      I also think that this is an unnecessary change.
      If anything, given the above rules I would almost say that the reverse needs to happen and overkill should removed or reduced.
      I would replace overkill with some combination of the following:
      "The losers becomes shaken"
      "The winners receive 200 vp's


    I agree it's not completely necessary given the other tweaks.
    Lowering Overkill just brings the balance back towards the unit champion, but with a bigger luck element since those effects are quite random and that's really not the direction T9A has been taking

    Shaken is an interesting idea but I'm not sure it really benefits the winner of the duel in a meaningful way.

    Extra VP is potentially abusable, and would probably stop players from bothering with them (especially if it's anything remotely near +200vp) as that encourages character spam to win duels.


    The point of the change to the duel mechanic is mostly to completely remove its current use as simply a way to deny damage to the unit.
    Anything that falls in an abusive position would need to be dealt with on a case by case basis.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    The attack distribution effects not being limited to those in the duels is a required fix for things like Chariots, so it's extended to all the other special attacks because it's nice and simple to just group everything together in a general core rule and any issues can be dealt with on a case by case basis.
    Ok but with your rules any character with these special attacks will never be dueled. Cause no foot slogger can stand up to a charging chariot, or ridden monster. In short I foresee that all of these exceptions will prove to be problematic. But I do think that given some tactical placement of champions you should be allowed to bait a challenge and potentially reduce incoming damage. I just don't think you should be able to do it any time you get a champion.
    If this change were to be implemented it would skew the game to solo characters who would tend to invalidate infantry blocks. Which I think is the wrong direction.

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    The overkill buff is specifically there to make sure you can't suck a hero into a fight too easily that they cannot win (or can only fail).
    At the moment it's +4 combat res from being charged and duelled, whereas a unit will beat that by 1 when charging and you auto-lose.
    Up it to +5 and now you need a magic banner +1 to simply guarantee a draw.
    I think that there is a two part answer here.
    Challenges are duel of honor, everyone agrees to let them fight mano el mano, and if you decline you are a coward and punished. Even though tactically it may be unwise to accept a challenge your pride is on the line. This means that you should be able to "suck a hero into a fight". I think that this is a critical part of game play. However like I have said above it is currently very easy to do so. I think with the proposed timing changes meaning you need to be positioned correctly adds enough of a hurdle that you can be rewarded for good play.
    But I think that this problem is also solved by making the losing side shaken. That means if my spear men charge a greater demon, challenge bait, I then win with static res, but since my champion lost the challenge I become shaken which means I am unable to pursue the demon if I win. It is also of note that there is a very low chance of the demon even fleeing from combat any way. Also they only ever get one chance to do that, I think its only fair that a unit of spearmen have a chance to have an impact before being horribly slaughtered.
    I think that it is also important to realize why I take this point of view, cause I overall gamewide think that units are to "killy". Ranks and banners are often completely out weighed from 10-15+ kills. I think that static combat res is important and should give you a chance.

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Shaken is an interesting idea but I'm not sure it really benefits the winner of the duel in a meaningful way.
    I think its an elegant solution. But it should also be shaken until the end of combat. Let me explain:
    Fluff: You have just seen your champion, the strongest man in your unit obliterated that would be unnerving.
    Tactically: In subsequent rounds of combat the +1/-1 to hit can be massively impact full, and it means even if you win combat you are unable to peruse the enemy. If anything this may be to impactful hahaha.

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    Extra VP is potentially abusable, and would probably stop players from bothering with them (especially if it's anything remotely near +200vp) as that encourages character spam to win duels.
    The thing about this is that character spam means multiple weaker characters. So if some one takes a more power full character that will actually win duels versus the weaker characters, he can challenge his way through a few characters completely negating that character spam tactic. Also against units with only a champion they are still able to decline with no detriment. In short I do not see room for abuse with character spam. If anything it will cause character to be built as more assassin / anti character but less capacity for blending, which further equalizes the balance to infantry units. As an assassin will be able to get through 2/3 wounds through armour or aegis but only 2/3 hence the unit around him will be more influencing in the outcome of combat.


    In short I do think that the challenge mechanic does need to be revisited and there are many forms it could take. Currently it is used to nullify dragons and other ridden monsters this is quite frustrating, but i think that the positional changes can remove the sense of frustrating because the player had opportunities to avoid it.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    How exactly do they invalidate infantry blocks?
    Infantry tend to be slow, but strong numerically. Strong characters that can murder 10+ dudes per turn with little counter play makes them an unattractive choice. I would rather cavalry or monsters etc which have better mobility and will still turn to paper against strong characters. I for see only slaves and zombies remaining as viable infantry. Elite infantry will be worse than other elite choices against these strong characters.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • duxbuse wrote:

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    How exactly do they invalidate infantry blocks?
    Infantry tend to be slow, but strong numerically. Strong characters that can murder 10+ dudes per turn with little counter play makes them an unattractive choice.
    We'll just have to agree that we have different views on the problem.

    Steadfast exists to solve the issue of strong units winning combats against numerically superior troops.
    The Duel Mechanic is not there for that purpose, hence my proposed changes.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    We'll just have to agree that we have different views on the problem.

    Steadfast exists to solve the issue of strong units winning combats against numerically superior troops.
    The Duel Mechanic is not there for that purpose, hence my proposed changes.
    I think perhaps you may have missed my point.
    I do like steadfast and think it is great. And given all of your proposed changes it will still be relevant. But only for units that cost less than 10ppm. Elite infantry, that are 20+ppm are often in 24 or less man units. If a hero can then still kill a good chunk of them whilst still being protected in a duel it will obviously make people not want to take elite infantry.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • I guess what I'm trying to say is that a unit of elite(probably with GW) guys are supposed to be able to deal with monsters/ridden monsters. Against regular monsters you will eventually get through their wound pool but you will probably take a few casualties on the way. However a ridden monster has many times the killing power. A horde / unit in line formation is around 24 models a ridden taurasaur or rock auroch with out reducing damage through a duel will completely blow through that unit. With the current duel mechanics there is some counter play as you can limit the single turn damage and give your self a chance to respond. In a way it is the counter to characters being hyper powerful. Cannons are currently a counter but only a few races have that option. What does a player do if they cant take cannons, just chaff and redirect a potentially flying monster? Everything needs to have counter play options currently champions are the counter play to all in hyper characters. Because whilst chaffing with a unit of zombies is also a good option and relying on steadfast any unit that can maintain steadfast against such a killy character is also slow and immobile meaning that the character can most definitely out maneuver the unit. Where as champions are much more accessible and much more mobile.

    The balance of these things hangs on a knifes edge, they are either near useless or unstoppable as is the way of force concentration.

    I'm on board with removing the immersion breaking rule of the hyper character on dragon being stuck killing one guy, but then what do I do when it can just choose fights and kill everything and I didn't bring cannons?
    #freekillerinstinct
  • Post 7 again.

    As for how to deal with certain threats.
    You're in the same situation as any other powerful and expensive unit, you have to chip away at them over several turns being prepared to sit them in combat with a steadfast block to buy time or just throw chaff at them to get them to either sit in place or be left out in the open for as long as possible.
    10 bowmen can knock a wound off even the toughest things in a single game, more powerful ranged abilities can do more as can higher amounts of shooting.
    Similar deal with magic, although it varies based on the lores you're using. Buffing the unit the monster fights or debuffing the thing can help.
    Combat is a case of getting whatever you have that can hurt it into combat with it, which can be done in a variety of ways some of which require sacrificing units.

    If you have cannons you can use them of course, but not every army has that easy mode available and then there's a chance he'll just shrug it off if he has an Aegis save and you've got to deal with him the more long winded and difficult way.

    The topic of how to deal with certain characters or units really requires it's own thread.