Druidism Attribute Probably Way Too Good

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  • Druidism Attribute Probably Way Too Good

    So it seems everyone is bringing monsters and characters with druidism. The attribute can easily give 1-2 wounds back every magic phase guaranteed. Sometimes these wounds are on high resilience, high armor save and ward save characters or monsters. These wounds are often 100-150+ points a piece (by the end of the battle could easily be 1000+ points back just from attributes) And that's just the attribute, druidism spells are really good as well. It's really hard to damage a lot of these single models. Druidism makes killing them for a lot of armies impossible. Taking shooting or magic that can't do 3+ wounds a shooting phase to these monsters/characters is just not worth it. The strategy of a wound here and a wound there to kill them is gone. They will just be healed up and your investment in shooting/magic was wasted. The druidism player won't even have wasted anything since they are just attributes. This becomes problematic as well because these characters and monsters can block line of sight to squishy targets, which forces shots that end up doing nothing that is not easy to counter. The undead have a ton of disadvantages and low stat lines for the price to be able to heal easily, the rest of these armies do not.

    I often feel like I am playing 40K now in 9th age with these models that are near unkillable with druidism.
  • I’m not going to get into the VC part of your post because it weakens your argument and will just turn this into a VC power level flame war.

    Just focusing on the Druidism element, one key thing to remember is the range of the attribute, 12”. What you describe below of monsters screening squishy units means your opponents entire army is likely in a 18-24” box. This gives you a huge advantage as an opponent as you can predict your opponents movement phase.

    Very few armies with access to Druidism can take multiple sources of drudism spells without exorbitant cost (sylvans with matriarchs, SA with skink shamans, BH with multiple low level soothsayers).

    There’s no doubt it’s a powerful mechanic, but you sacrifice movement flexibility and magic damage output (missiles and offensive buffs) in exchange.

    -Vesp
  • Vespacian wrote:

    I’m not going to get into the VC part of your post because it weakens your argument and will just turn this into a VC power level flame war.

    Just focusing on the Druidism element, one key thing to remember is the range of the attribute, 12”. What you describe below of monsters screening squishy units means your opponents entire army is likely in a 18-24” box. This gives you a huge advantage as an opponent as you can predict your opponents movement phase.

    Very few armies with access to Druidism can take multiple sources of drudism spells without exorbitant cost (sylvans with matriarchs, SA with skink shamans, BH with multiple low level soothsayers).

    There’s no doubt it’s a powerful mechanic, but you sacrifice movement flexibility and magic damage output (missiles and offensive buffs) in exchange.

    -Vesp
    All it takes is one master with 4 spells plus oaken for 5 spells to get 1-2 attributes off every phase and even 3 if the opponent rolls bad for dispel sometimes. You only need to really cast 3 druidism spells a phase for this benefit. SE, KoE, BH, HE, SA all can do monster/character mash with druidism.

    You never have to have a box. Your monster and characters only need to move in the box when they are damaged to heal them. Then you just move a different undamaged monster and character back out on the flanks etc. Or just move your mage or other units around. It is not limiting at all because all the models are single models and can move easily. Sometimes the mage is also a single hard to kill model. There is very little sacrificing of movement or having to play in a box with these armies.
  • Or just take binding scrolls. It can be used on the attribute, and suddenly they can't heal at all outside summer growth.
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  • It not only works well but can make 2000+ points of the best most dangerous units virtually unkillable when you combine it with high resilience, armor and ward saves. 12" is not short. You can move the mage or the monster/character and it's a 24" diameter circle near the middle of the table where you can have these unkillable things that can threaten way larger area. Druidism has very few limitations, it's probably the most taken path right now.
  • TheEvilOne wrote:

    It not only works well but can make 2000+ points of the best most dangerous units virtually unkillable when you combine it with high resilience, armor and ward saves
    We are talking about 1/2 model regenerating a wound every turn, it's obviously good, but it doesn't make anything unkillable, if you then consider that you need to pay 500+ point for the mage and the some other for a good bunker that can bring the mage near the heath of things (because 12" is short if you want to be safe)... As i said is good, but not anything over the top.

    TheEvilOne wrote:

    Druidism has very few limitations, it's probably the most taken path right now.
    In my opinion Druidism is full of limitations, for example the fact that if i don't bring monsters/big model the path is suboptimal or the limited range of the spells.
    I can say that druidism is definitely not the most taken path by the Sylvan Elves, i can't say about other armies with access to it.
  • @TheEvilOne
    I think this is an over-reaction to Druidism. The Path (and it’s Attribute) is fine in a competitive environment.

    ‘everyone is bringing monsters and characters with Druidism
    ‘the most taken path right now’
    This is a load of nonsense, most people simply are not taking it (at tournaments, I assume you mean). Even when they do... so what?

    To clarify one thing you said: Fountain of Youth can only heal 1 wound max on a model in one turn... you can’t heal more than 1 wound per turn, on the same model with it.

    As for it’s game impact? That heal/raise has to matter. It doesn’t, a lot of the time. Eg healing 1 wound on a Monster doesn’t matter when its getting smashed 4+ wounds a turn, or run down.
    And it’s range means your wizard has to stay quite close to its target, so theres counter play there for the opponent.

    My issue with it, is ressurecting Champions, to continually challenge out a character. Thats all.
  • I find with Druidism you have extremely limited options and impact in early magic phases, combined with the Path being almost entirely reactive it requires a powerful attribute to even be worthwile.

    Yes the attribute is strong in certain builds but requires a specific kind of list and very tight positioning to take advantage of. Even when all is said and done whatever your trying to keep healthy can still just die in 1 turn depending on the situation.

    The spells themselves in Druidism are a mixed bag to say the least:

    Oaken Throne is a bit of a mess in my opinion. It gives an opponent two chances of stopping a spells effect if you need the boosted version of a spell and has many overly complex rules interactions and exceptions.

    Healing Waters is solid in some armies and weak in others. It depends on the army's/list's access Aegis/Regeneration saves. But 12" range makes it tricky to use.

    Master of Earth is next to useless and may only see play if a secondary wizard with magic missile support is available for redundancy.

    Entwining Roots is again a mixed bag with limited range that depends on match ups and often requires Oaken Throne to be up to have any meaningful effect.

    Summer Growth is a truly great spell, but like the attribute it is completely reactive and has little effect early game. On top of which no other spell is like it, so when it's effect is truly important it's easy for the opponent to stop It (redundant spells are key to the 2.0 magic phase)

    Stone Skin is a great buff boosted or not with its main limitation being 12" range again.

    Spirits in the Woods is a highly conditional spell that lacks redundancy and often requires Oaken Throne to be used effectively. Giving the opposing player 2 chances to stop It when it truly matters.

    The 12" range spells do have the ability to be cast out of certain terrain features but this require a combination of a favorable board set up, deployment zone, pre-planning, and positioning to be used effectively. All of these elements are rarely in place for a given game.

    Nearly all the spells are designed to keep your models alive and It makes the path super defensive, with Healing Waters, Entwining Roots, and Stone Skin being somewhat redundant with one another in many cases. The current trend for magic is often having a mix of magic missiles for early-mid game with a pair of potent buffs/hexes for key combats. Druidism doesn't provide that mix without a secondary wizard, requiring a steep investment in the magic phase and diluting the effect of the attribute.

    In conclusion, people don't take Druidism for the spells, they are pretty mediocre. It's taken purely for the attribute, any nerfs to that would also require major overhauls for the other spells to make them more valuable.

    Hope this helps,
    Cheers!
  • 2Cats1Tuna wrote:

    @TheEvilOne
    I think this is an over-reaction to Druidism. The Path (and it’s Attribute) is fine in a competitive environment.

    ‘everyone is bringing monsters and characters with Druidism
    ‘the most taken path right now’
    This is a load of nonsense, most people simply are not taking it (at tournaments, I assume you mean). Even when they do... so what?

    To clarify one thing you said: Fountain of Youth can only heal 1 wound max on a model in one turn... you can’t heal more than 1 wound per turn, on the same model with it.

    As for it’s game impact? That heal/raise has to matter. It doesn’t, a lot of the time. Eg healing 1 wound on a Monster doesn’t matter when its getting smashed 4+ wounds a turn, or run down.
    And it’s range means your wizard has to stay quite close to its target, so theres counter play there for the opponent.

    My issue with it, is ressurecting Champions, to continually challenge out a character. Thats all.
    I think he also means summer growth as well which is max 2 per turn :).
    But it really shows @TheEvilOne's inexperience in the game.

    TheEvilOne wrote:

    These wounds are often 100-150+ points a piece (by the end of the battle could easily be 1000+ points back just from attributes)
    Actually it's not. It can only be quantified when it is down to 1 wound and turn 5 or 6 (depending on who started and assuming you play a full 6 turns) where it valued - other turns it cant' be quantifiable as it's not a factor.
    :HE: Beware of the panda....with big guns
  • You know when people start making personal attacks. They really want to hold onto thier OP mechanic for thier army. It also highly encourages Herohammer with monsters or other single models like chariots. I am not a big fan of these Herohammer single model armies. Some people like it though. This game should be about blocks of units to me.

    1. A lot of these single characters/monsters only take an average of 1 wound a round of combat or less because of so much defense (res/armor/ward) so healing a wound every turn is huge. You can have a 500 point character with 3 wounds just saved at full health over 3 turns. So that's 500 points plus the unit you kill so could easily be 1000 point swing with just the attribute. Especially because it's guaranteed to get one spell through.

    2. Many of these models every wound can determine on whether you charge or not for odds of success. And also to determine odds of success over many rounds of combat. Druidism really skews these. Druidism attribute can affect all your planning and movements.

    3. It also makes shooting at these models pointless because you only average ~1 wound a turn at them which will also be cancelled by attribute. Most armies take shooting to help against single target but if they don't have cannons than it's just not worth it because they just heal.

    Every wound counts and when each one is worth 100+ points then it adds up to over 1000 free points some battles just with the attribute.. It's simple math. Each wound matters in a lot of decisions and effects so much of the game. Do I charge treemen with 4 wounds left knowing that every turn it gets one more? Huge difference than just a treeman with 4 wounds left. It really impacts the game.

    The post was edited 5 times, last by TheEvilOne ().

  • I don't think that the attribute is too strong. I play Empire and WotDG, so there is no personal interest in keeping it. I've played against it many times, and although annoying sometimes, I think it is a fair, thematic, and fun for the owning player to heal his models.

    The attribute states that a model may only be affected by it once per phase. That means at best they are only healing one wound every player turn, per model they need to heal. Sure, if they successfully get the attribute off, if they are within the pretty limited 12" range, and if you haven't been doing any wounds to it on your player turn, they might be able to bring something back from the brink of death. Seems like a lot of "ifs" to me.

    To turn this question slightly, what would your proposed solution be?
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  • TheEvilOne wrote:

    You know when people start making personal attacks. They really want to hold onto thier OP mechanic for thier army. It also highly encourages Herohammer with monsters or other single models like chariots. I am not a big fan of these Herohammer single model armies. Some people like it though. This game should be about blocks of units to me.

    1. A lot of these single characters/monsters only take an average of 1 wound a round of combat or less because of so much defense (res/armor/ward) so healing a wound every turn is huge. You can have a 500 point character with 3 wounds just saved at full health over 3 turns. So that's 500 points plus the unit you kill so could easily be 1000 point swing with just the attribute. Especially because it's guaranteed to get one spell through.

    2. Many of these models every wound can determine on whether you charge or not for odds of success. And also to determine odds of success over many rounds of combat. Druidism really skews these. Druidism attribute can affect all your planning and movements.

    3. It also makes shooting at these models pointless because you only average ~1 wound a turn at them which will also be cancelled by attribute. Most armies take shooting to help against single target but if they don't have cannons than it's just not worth it because they just heal.

    Every wound counts and when each one is worth 100+ points then it adds up to over 1000 free points some battles just with the attribute.. It's simple math. Each wound matters in a lot of decisions and effects so much of the game. Do I charge treemen with 4 wounds left knowing that every turn it gets one more? Huge difference than just a treeman with 4 wounds left. It really impacts the game.
    Re "personal attack": ummm I don't know where you get this and from what I've said it's true and it shows
    Re point 1: from what source? From light arms shooting yes probably true - hence light arms. From heavier shooting most definitely not.
    Re point 2: True as are many other factors and with other path of magic what's your point?
    Re point 3: so cannon into a monster isn't an issue? I've killed a Steam Tank on full health on the turn of my charge - how would the path attribute help in this instance?

    I think you need to play more games first and check your factors before you start making such bold and general statements.

    Edit: One thing I would like to point out is if it's is as good (or broken / overpowered) as you say it is; why haven't this lore been used in every army available to it? Or rather why isn't it as popular if it's as strong as you say it is? Tournament data suggest otherwise?

    Don't get me wrong - it's a good path with lots of monsters and good characters but what armies with access to this path actually brings it / good with it?
    BH - yes
    HE - no
    KoE - 50/50
    SA - maybe but other paths are better imo.
    SE - no

    don't think I've missed any other armies?
    :HE: Beware of the panda....with big guns

    The post was edited 2 times, last by pk-ng ().

  • Well l belive as a Player which loves Monster Mash Cowboy builds that the prob lem is not the 400+ Master but the 115-180 point skinkpriest which gets his Points back in one Casting which Keeps/ brings a Model at 1 or 2 wounds.

    But let us see if 204 will solve that matter or not.
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  • If you assign a points value to the spell effect with the statement that healing a wound on a 500pt monster with 5 wounds is worth 100pts, does that mean if I cast a magic missile at that same monster and inflict 3 wounds I just got a "free" 300pt advantage?

    Magic dice are a limited resource, usually you can only cast 1-2 spells in a typical magic phase and we already pay points for our wizards to gain access to this phase. We get the payout for spending our points on these models when we successfully cast spells to alter the board state. Druidism spell effects are primed around defense and are somewhat weaker when compared to the effects of other paths, in return it has a more powerful attribute to compensate. In other paths you get your points worth when you cast spells that increase your offensive potential resulting in more kills or wounds caused, or by inflicting damage via spells on units, or even using movement spells to create a favorable situation for yourself either saving a unit from destruction or wiping out a unit you otherwise couldn't have by flanking it.

    I get that it's easy to extrapolate that regaining wounds = points. But each time the Druidism player is casting spells for that effect he isn't blowing up units with fire balls, getting extra veil tokens, making units flammable, etc etc.

    1. Cheers!
  • TheEvilOne wrote:

    So it seems everyone is bringing monsters and characters with druidism. The attribute can easily give 1-2 wounds back every magic phase guaranteed. Sometimes these wounds are on high resilience, high armor save and ward save characters or monsters. These wounds are often 100-150+ points a piece (by the end of the battle could easily be 1000+ points back just from attributes)

    Vespacian wrote:

    Just focusing on the Druidism element, one key thing to remember is the range of the attribute, 12”.
    @Vespacian is spot on here. The wizard has to keep up with the monster / character so kill the wizard. They can't cast spells if they are dead.

    Throw into that, each model can only recover 1 wound per phase with this spell. Over the battle that's a maximum of 6 wounds. If you're doing 2-3 wounds a turn you'll kill the monster or character.

    It is clearly a powerful mechanic, but I don't agree that it's overpowered.

    With the KoE example, you have to invest a minimum of 1395 points and can easily max your character allowance of 1800 for this tactic. That's a minimum of about 30% of the army's points for this tactic. You should be able to take advantage elsewhere.

    Also Hippo Dukes are vurnruble to cannons and the like - with just 4 wounds, they can be one shotted off the board.

    2Cats1Tuna wrote:

    My issue with it, is ressurecting Champions, to continually challenge out a character. Thats all.
    Agreed on this. Once a champion is dead he should stay dead - just like characters.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • The wizard can be on a large mount or be a monster and regain wounds. That was one of the points of the post. I actually really like the lore and think it’s balanced for Sylvan Elves. Other races are able to leverage it better.

    The Druidism attribute heavily promotes monster mash, and herohammer. There is no question about that. (Three flying monsters with a caster on one with Druidism definitely hard counters some lists.)

    I think the point is: 9th age feels like it is pulling farther away from rank and file. Everything in this game hoses infantry. I would love to see armies with 3-6 big blocks of infantry as the base :)
  • In my meta, Druidism is a rather rare lore. It seems to work really well with certain BH lists. But in those cases, the scary spells is not the Attribute but the buff spells. I am sure that SA can build some effective lists around Druidism as well, but those are not popular in my meta.

    I usually play SE and have very unrestricted and cheap access to Druidsm. And I almost never take it. I just doesn't work well with the army. The buff spells are not very useful because they target a single unit, which doesn't synergize well with multiple small units. On top of that, SE have to spread out to be effective, which does not synergize at all with the short range of Druidism spells.

    Druidism is fine for very specific lists, where multiple Treefathers can benefit from healing wounds occasionally. But I find Shamanism to be a much more versatile and effective lore for SE. Debuffing the opponent is much more powerful than buffing own units in a MSU scenario.