Wildhorns debate

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  • I usually use them. In fact if Im writing as competitive a list as I can, they're my go to for core. Two units of 25, one with shields one with paired weapons, both with full command (and maybe magic banners and throwing weapons depending on what Im doing). Both ambush.

    Generally they are my prime objective takers and warmachine hunters. If an opportunity presents itself they will flank/rear charge an enemy, but usually my opponents deploy/manoeuvre such that my ambushers dont get those golden chances - which is in itself an impact that they have while they're off the board. The changes to make hunting call optional only heightens the pressure they can place on opponents movement by delaying their entry at times.

    Only issue I have with them is that all our infantry is pretty similar, and theyre between longhorns and mongrels in kind of a no mans land. Outside of ambushing, I dont see them as a competitive choice as mongrels do their job basically the same if they're in ld bubble, and longhorns are better while still being relatively cheap in small numbers. In future Id like there to be a greater difference between the three infantry - wildhorns becoming more elite core (maybe just s4) and longhorns becoming something very different to what they are now.
    Probably the Least Useless Player in the World - International Herminard Poll 2018
  • I use 2 units, 25 and 15 strong, both ambush.
    I am limited to 40 models that I own and I don't feel like buying more.

    Unit of 15 with Musician and throwing weapons and extra hand weapons.
    Unit of 25 with full command and Banner of the Wild Herd + Blood Horn totem on the champ. Also, ambushing Soothsayer Adept with Druidism included, tooled for combat with shammy stick.

    The small unit is expendable, the big unit is now so I try to enter the battle as close to or within the reach of the BSB/General that are comming from the front to form sort of "L" formation towards the enemy.

    I like the base cost, I like the options for weapons, I don't think they need any other option more.
    Pack Tactics and Ambush, that cost 12 points pre wound (with extra hand weapon) for model that has Offensive WS 5, hits with 2 attacks, Def. 4 and T4, that can have re-roll to hit is a steal.
  • I have used them in every list so far. Both as small ambushing units, "large" ambushing units and big mainline block. Ambushing units are good for scoring and taking out war machines, but are somewhat underwhelming otherwise. They can quite easily be charged off the field by a monster or broken by a chariot charge.

    As a big block I find them good at being steadfast, but not much else. The exception is the one round you pop the banner. It's very frustrating doing 10+ hits, only to end up inflicting a couple of wounds. S3 and no AP is about as weak as it gets.

    I'd grade them 3 out of 5.
  • Last weekend I played a battle vs WDG. I took a unit of 32 wildhorns with strong magic support, banner of the wild herd and bsb. In the end they have not been fighting (I played too safe) and I regret it, cause after the battle we rolled some dice and this unit with 8:5 magic phase wiped out a block of wrath warriors with great weapons killing 18 of them while losing 12 bodies. If you have a proper set of spells they are really dangerous.
    Now I want to give'em a try again.
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  • Kolata wrote:

    Last weekend I played a battle vs WDG. I took a unit of 32 wildhorns with strong magic support, banner of the wild herd and bsb. In the end they have not been fighting (I played too safe) and I regret it, cause after the battle we rolled some dice and this unit with 8:5 magic phase wiped out a block of wrath warriors with great weapons killing 18 of them while losing 12 bodies. If you have a proper set of spells they are really dangerous.
    Now I want to give'em a try again.
    Isn't that the normal story of if you need good magic support to make them viable, that magic works even better on something else?
    Probably the Least Useless Player in the World - International Herminard Poll 2018
  • The wildhorn non-ambushing version is much weaker compared to mongrels, both in the offensive setup (wilhorns with paired and mongrels with spears) and in the defensive one (both with shields). The extra ld point that wildhorn have is not enough since ld 7 is not a reliable ld level, so also wildhorn need to stay in the ld bubble as mongrels. There is no reason to choose normal wildhorn instead of normal mongrels.
    The ambushing version is good, both in a big block, and in a small block. The only weakness os that wildhorns really suffer a lot from low ld, and it's quite easy to make them panicking. Even in a 25 wildhorns block, one needs to kill only 7 of them to make them panicking with ld 7 and eventually make them flee of the board. For this reason I think that atm the only real viable way to play them is in a 15 man units, since it's a very cheap unit that can hunt WMs and score objectives very easily.
    Two improvements are needed imo: 1) a very small buff to non ambushing wildhorns (0-1 halberds only if not ambushing), 2) something that makes big ambushing gors slightly more reliable against panic (rerol first panic?)
  • I use 2 units of 25 with Ambush, Paired Weapons, Banner of the Wild Herd and a different totem on each one (for different jobs). Normally one Black Wing and one Blooded Horn.

    I wouldn't trade them for any other core choice in the world, they are incredible. I use them to answer certain opponents and appear right next to them via ambush. Black Wing normally counters elven-esque elites, and Blooded Horn fights Dwarven-esque elites.

    My Blooded Horn ones are especially bloodthirsty, they can often tolerate even being flanked and engaged in the front by elite troops/monstrous infantry and still fight ALL of them off. Most recent example was 4 Thunder Hulks in the flank and 50 Vermin Guard in the front with BSB. 25 Wildhorns with no characters butchered them all. And in that same tournament I had 3 Goblin cowboys (one in the front, one in the rear, one in the flank) charge them only to have 2 executed and the third broke and ran.
  • Mirdhynn wrote:

    How do you manage the low ld ? with an ambush BSB ?
    Ideas vary, but most range from a speedy BSB/Crown of Horns/General getting close enough to them. Like a minotaur General in a unit of Minotaurs with the Banner of Speed for example.

    Other times it is using the Wildhorns and another unit in a pincer formation; with the wildhorns in the back and another combat block in the front. The one in the front normally contains someone who makes passing the tests easier, so they will easily be in range. I generally don't ambush my characters.

    My wildhorns are easily one of the most moaned-about thing in anyone's list locally :P.
  • I use two minimum size units of Wildhorns with Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, and Musicians, ambushing.

    They aren't fighty enough to handle anything stronger than peasants in combat, their throwing weapons are made irrelevant by enemy Resilience, Armor values, and clever positioning, and their inconsistent Discipline means they'll just run right back off of the board 1/3 of the time.

    They're Core filler, nothing else. Maybe if you're lucky your opponent will just ignore them and the nonexistent threat they pose, and let you have an advantage on Breakthrough while he murders the rest of your army.
  • Deino wrote:

    I use two minimum size units of Wildhorns with Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, and Musicians, ambushing.

    They aren't fighty enough to handle anything stronger than peasants in combat, their throwing weapons are made irrelevant by enemy Resilience, Armor values, and clever positioning, and their inconsistent Discipline means they'll just run right back off of the board 1/3 of the time.

    They're Core filler, nothing else. Maybe if you're lucky your opponent will just ignore them and the nonexistent threat they pose, and let you have an advantage on Breakthrough while he murders the rest of your army.
    Well, this was EXACTLY my experience as well. Still, I'm thinking that I am doing something wrong... and my enemies usually react smart in most of the cases against ambushing units...

    Last game, I tried 20 Longhorns with BSB to join my wildhorns. It didn't go well, neither. But I think my problem was that the rest of my army was slowed down very well by my enemy (very mobile SE army) and I could not impose threats from front and back at the same time. And I guess timing is a very crucial point when you put a lot of points in ambush.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by teclis2000 ().

  • I've had quite the same results as previous posters.

    I tend to run either minimum sized units in ambush with paired weapons and latest tested out 20-25 with shields. I've dropped throwing weapons a long time ago as they just don't do enough. In my experience they have more impact on the game when they are off the table rather than on. Once they arrive I've not managed to get great results. Their main purpose is to score in most of the time. I don't see myself taking a big unit (30+) of them but that's more of a preference in a playstyle. I almost always take the units but that's because there are no better alternatives. I don't like core chariots as they don't score and mongrels as said are too unreliable when ambushing.

    This being said I don't view them as bad. Neither I think they need any significant buffs. I really dislike the halberd addition that has been thrown in the air couple of times here as that would just render longhorns obsolete. They have their uses but I guess they are a bit of the cyclopses of the core section as you need to know exactly what to do with wildhorns in order to get the most out of them.

    I've not yet played BH in the latest patch but I feel the change in hunting call can be huge for them as you get more control out of which turn you want the units to arrive.
  • 1)I used them in lot of set ups
    2) I have 70 of them painted so I want them to work :D
    3)
    15 ambushers with PW an TW - they are good only for scenario or warmachine hunting, sometimes they can join fight later in game

    Ambushing horde - interesting concept, but it is very problematic with low LD to run them alone

    Fighty horde - propable most interesting choice as we can help them with magic and so on and then they are quite good

    Ambushing shield block - quite interesting in fact, but LD is still problem

    Shield block - not as much interesting as fighty option

    Two big block - you dont have enough magic dices :)

    4)
    They should be better, because there is one big nerf which is not said by anyone - base size. 25mm base size have big impact on maneuvering and all infantry units with this handicap should get some love for that... Mongrels have similar dmg output which is problem...

    Possible ideas:
    - 1AP in basic version
    - some "warpaints" - customizable upgrade similar to SA totems on saurians
    - cheaper :)
  • I've also been seduced by the call of 20 ambushing longhorns. Thats a total trap choice. They just get eaten by flamethrowers.

    Regarding wildhorns- I generally ambush 2x20 ahw, khorne totem, beast banner or

    2x16 throwing weapons, khorne

    In my most recent lists I've been running 30 fc, khorne, beasts, ahw as a bunker for my characters.

    Why do I pick these over other choices? Chariot units suck, i don't own dogs, i don't own enough ungor & none have spears (gave all my spear arms away). However, I m considering a big block of spear ungor.

    How do you use gor- backline harrassers, static rez for my opponent.

    I think they need to be ld8 if we want to keep pretending ambush is a good rule & I unironically think they should be s4. Back in 8th I used to say 'Gor are awsome because of t4, ws4' (I also used to and still say t4 is only valuBle on gor). But the game environment was much different. Ambush was non exsistant & 8th revolved arround big blocks of guys. CoC gave stubborn, beastbanner was expensive but was a perminant s4 & marks were perminant*. They may have been a point too expensive but these factors coalesced to make the unit function reliably.

    With 9th we have no way to reliBly and sustainably support this unit. Totems are unreliable, expensive (to cast); beastbanner is just for one player turn; 9th is focused on MM/SU wich spreads magic support thin and ambush strands them outside of a support bubble**. Additionally, being s3 with no AP makes them a weak combat threat. Being able to rr to hit is useless if you wound on a 5 or have to deal with armor.

    Finally, throwing weapons are totally useless and masturbatory. Theres really nothing like throwing 40 dice for an average of 3 wounds.

    If I were designing a unit that could pop in and shoot, i would make a speacial bm throwing weapon(if they stayed s3) "tomahawk- 12", can't double tap, +1s +1 ap when throwing these" and a rule for the unit "Bulls-eye!- unit has +1 to hit with throwing weapons and ignores forests when determining LoS and cover."

    There i fixed the unit.




    *in the end times

    **i don't really like ambushing characters because it makes them too vulnerable & imo, artificially inflates the costs of ambushing core. I also usually need my characters to be on the board for t1
  • I only use them in units of 15 to ambush, since they are practically not used outside the ambush, since as a block they are weak in combat, the ones that usually wear them are because they do not have ungors.

    they should be the central pillar of the army and only serve to fill basics, outside the ambush should be a unit that works

    the longhorns with s6 I do not think they were eclipsed by wildhorns

    and with much magic any unit is good, it is a lame unit that without magic does not work and you could use that magic for more useful things

    another option instead of giving them a unit s4, would be giving them halberds or retouching the banner so that s4 all turns
  • Used them almost in every game for a long time.
    Block with banner and support.

    As a block they do not perform to expectations, they dont grind, they dont do damage to anything that has any armor whatsoever.
    Once banner runs out and your opponent denies any buffing from spells the S3 cant do anything tangible and is more of a wet fart and a joke to most of enemies I´ve faced.

    I tried ambush instead.
    Due to the stat line, their presence is so weak that for examle my dwarven opponent didnt really give a damm about them, and when the charged his backline he dropped a loathstone, auto reformed and murdered them all. So fun.

    People try to push them as glorified axe throwers and yet these guys have effective range of 8", cannot march and shoot, and hit on 5+ with S3. If the 5+ to hit already shaves off 60% of your shots, then that S3 pretty much reduces any real threat to anything but zombies, goblins and most rudimentary of units, but you can be damn sure that now that you are nice and close you will get murderificated soon enough.

    Also for people who are oh so scared of them being S4 and making Longhorns obsolete.
    You know Nothing John Snow.

    The two units full fill completely different roles, sadly Wildhorns dont really hold up their end of bargain.
    The other thing is the unit price would go slightly up, to about 15/16 points max. I have already spoken about this in another thread, but a unit of WoDG Barbarians has S4 as well, cost 11 points AND can take on actual equipment like spears, throwing weapons and Great weapons.
    THIS would make Longhorns obsolete, but we are not discussing S4 Wildhorns with Great weapons no.
    Not even with halberds.
    Treat them the same as Barbarians. S4 AP0.
    Makes both Paired Weapon and Shield options still relevant, and you can get that AP with Rending banner. But with S4 from the get go then can finally be relied up to do the job. Resilience 4 is not so rare as people like to pretend, actualy if we put all the Elves into a single category, other than EoS and Equitaine you dont see it that much around. And those have good armor saves to make up for it.

    Wildhonrs have idnetity crisis, and just because people can shoe horn them into a certain role it doesnt make them great for that role.
    If they were to be throwing specialists they would have the option for Light Infantry/Fleet Flight or whats the name of the rule and effectie dice roll of 4+ To Hit.
    If they are to be a reliable Troops choice with Mongrels getting ever so better with each update, they need something to allow them to be a threat, otherwise they will be just a wet tissue paper that only serves as a pseudo roadblock for anyone really dedicated to blast them away in a single turn due to CR.

    They are at a point where cost changes dont solve anything anymore, The price is artifically bumped up by Primal Instict, but it doesnt matter you can maybe re-roll your hits when those punches feel more like little kids pillow fight than an angry Beastmen beating the living shjt out of you.
    Herdstone member. For the Great Beast God !