Wildhorns debate

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  • I took a unit of 40 to a 1 day tournament and came 3rd.

    I think BH biggest problems are very much not wildhorns.
    I would point at the meta first, and perhaps some points costs second.
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  • While I agree that Wild Horns are not the only or probably even the major problem concerning Beast Herds. That is what this discussion is focusing on. What / If there is anything wrong with Wild Horns and what to do to fix them?

    The fundamental problem is.....Wild Horns are Str 3 with primal fury and no AP. Mongrels are Str 3 with primal fury and 1 AP for cheaper. So there is a loss of individual identity on Wild Horns. And we feel that having Toughness 4 is not really enough of a differentiation to give them a unique role in the army. They both can have the same number of attacks with PW and Spears. Wild Horns do get a bump in Offensive weapon skill. But again, are they truly different enough to say that they do different things?

    This is the fundamental question.
  • To my recollection, I've never seen a big block of mongrels do well at a UK event.
    There were some lists kicking around with big blocks of wildhorns that have done ok (one of these was in 1.3, but wildhorns weren't really any different then. Certainly they didn't meaningfully differ from mongrels any more than now.

    But if this is the only problem then surely it is just a pricing thing? Not a reason for a design change.


    That said, I think a fair statement is that I would never take a big block of wildhorns without the banner.
    But then I don't need to, right?
    New rules:
    (1) I will do my best to answer your criticisms, particularly of RT, but don't forget to thank one of the unsung heros who hold this project together: rules clarity team, lectors, website admin, background etc...
    (2) If you tag me and I don't answer you, its because I'm busy, sorry :( . If you still want an answer ~4 days later then tag me again and I will try to do better :)
  • See; its all meta ;) :P
    New rules:
    (1) I will do my best to answer your criticisms, particularly of RT, but don't forget to thank one of the unsung heros who hold this project together: rules clarity team, lectors, website admin, background etc...
    (2) If you tag me and I don't answer you, its because I'm busy, sorry :( . If you still want an answer ~4 days later then tag me again and I will try to do better :)
  • Giladis wrote:

    cmccracken86 wrote:

    I know everyone in the management team keeps coming saying they are great... they are a steal. If so then why do the vast majority of major tournament players run 15 man darts and that is it. If they are such a steal why do I see no 40 man bricks? I am not asking this to be snarky. I am asking to force some intellectual honesty. If no one is doing it at the upper tournament level, and don't give me these one off instances because I read the tournament army lists and the vast majority do not, then something is wrong with the unit. Unless your design idea is for them to be small dart MMU style force. If so then come out and say that is the design and then that is it.
    My immediate response to this is the way scenarios work. In a game it more often beneficial to have two medium sized units over one large even though a larger one would be a viable combat block.
    I am quite certain we would once again see 40+ strong Wildhorn units if overwhelming majority of tournament games would be ex Pitched Battles. Because in that environment size often trumped more units.
    While this is true and quite realistic as medium size > small or big in general warfare as well, I think the game would benefit more if large units where just a little more expensive than medium units, OR, if some kind of general rule for small/medum/large units were added. :)
  • I want to throw out this idea here, because it impacts Wildhorns the most. What if the change was something subtle in Primal Fury?

    Instead of Primal Fury just allowing rerolls to hit, it also sets the models AP to 1 unless they already have AP from something else. For instance, Mongrels with Spears don't gain the AP because they have AP1 from the spears, but Wildhorns could get the AP1 if they don't have the banner active, or a spell on them, still needing to pass the Primal Fury test.

    I get that this affects more than just Wildhorns, but the list is small and situational;
    1. Soothsayer without Carvings/other AP boost weapon
    2. Mongrels without Spears
    3. Wildhorns
    4. Gargoyles if they get stuck
    I'm very curious what people see wrong with this (beyond Mongrels getting it). Is it something that could be discussed further?
  • New

    clorens wrote:

    It has already been said that the brutal armies do not receive ap
    I get that, I'm looking for discussion since AP 1 seems to be a softer landing point. It is a situational AP because it's based on getting PF, and can't already have any AP.

    Currently our big "advantage" is Ambush with up 60% able to do so. I don't know if you've tried for as much Ambush as possible, but I have and my best list for it got to 45%. My main opponents are DH, VS and SE. While each presents a different issue, Wildhorns seem to be the weak point, even when 25 strong, full command, in Ambush, I know meta, I haven't played against the OnG, WotDG, VC, EoS, HE, or KoE yet. Now, I don't say this because of lack of support for these guys, but the support is what gets targeted and killed or rendered inept as fast as possible.

    So I come to Wildhorns, they are the ones to benefit, not consistently, but enough to make them at least threatening, where right now the concern is just to hit anything else first. I would honestly love devastating charge (+1 Attack if not under the effect of a spell), because more dice, but that creates an issue with balance against low Res, low armor.

    Edit: I'm not saying they are bad, just looking for something small.
  • New

    Champion with totem = champion dies in the first round of combact = wasting 15 points.
    This point opens another angle through which looking at the wildhorn issue. It seems to me that the biggest concern about increasing wildhorns' power is that they can become too strong too easily with just a few magic buffs. I think that this assumption comes from the experience that BH opponents had when the totems were realy strong back in 1.something. Instead, currently BH are able to cast 1 or 2 spells per turn as every other army.
    Furthermore, do you really think that I would focus on casting my spells on my wildhorn block instead that on my minotaurs/longhorns/gortach? Really? That's a further reason why mongrels are widely used as cheap combact block and wildohorn are not: mongrels are useful also without buffs (cheap, good ap, spears, steadfast OR cheap, parry, steadfast) while wildhorns are not.
  • New

    I know that special rules seem to be in disfavor right now but what about:

    Devastating Charge (Thrown Weapon): A unit with this ability is able to make a thrown weapon attack while charging.

    Since the army/unit in question is geared towards combat, would this maybe tip some of those earlier calculations in this thread slightly?

    Also very American Indian vibe is what I see from this army minus the cavalry of course.

    If this interests the community maybe the thrown weapon option can be given for free if it isn't already standard equipment.

    Just going outside the box here and seeing if this might work for you guys.
  • New

    Randdogs wrote:

    I know that special rules seem to be in disfavor right now but what about:

    Devastating Charge (Thrown Weapon): A unit with this ability is able to make a thrown weapon attack while charging.

    Since the army/unit in question is geared towards combat, would this maybe tip some of those earlier calculations in this thread slightly?

    Also very American Indian vibe is what I see from this army minus the cavalry of course.

    If this interests the community maybe the thrown weapon option can be given for free if it isn't already standard equipment.

    Just going outside the box here and seeing if this might work for you guys.
    I was thinking about this a long time ago, but someone told me there already is an army that has this as their special rule.
    Thats why I never voiced the idea.... You get thumbs up from me, thats for sure ;)

    Now that I think about it... Is there actually an army that does this ? I dont know every army out there, but I have never seen anyone using this.

    Btw @Kolata thanks again for responding....ah...wait... you didnt....for like Xth time now... right.
    Not sure if being forcefully ingored or not. If you hate my guts, be open with me and at least let me know so I am aware dude.

    ***

    Since there are still people who believe the unit can be made more relevant purely by points adjustments (which it clearly not, whenever the question of "How many big Wildhorns Blocks are played where u at" comes, everyone either jukes the answer, or says none.... this should already tell you something), then how about Starting them with Paired weapons / Throwing axes. OR reducing the cost of both from 2ppm to 1ppm.
    Starting them with PW would be an interesting choice as you would save up on 80 points per block of 40 and that is not a negligable sum.
    Efficiency vs Cost speaking, this would put them on par with Mongrels (which is kinda sad, all things considered), since you would not be overpaying. At the same time you would not look at WoDG Barbarians who are S4 for 11 points each with envy and hatred, not the marks... ok sh*tty pun I know :P
    Herdstone member. For the Great Beast God !
  • New

    Randdogs wrote:



    Devastating Charge (Thrown Weapon): A unit with this ability is able to make a thrown weapon attack while charging.
    I like this idea, but I know it will get shot down! Would it be an impact it at the units S or how else would you do it?

    The only way I can think of fixing Gor, (apart from giving them S4 which I would love), is to give them 2 attacks if they pass primal fury.

    LD is still a downside, you are getting MAX 10 extra attacks if10 wide, still limited at S3 or S3 if banner. Gives them a bit more chance to do some damage before dying.