Sea Guard Current State and Hopeful Changes

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  • Evaenarion wrote:

    well...the experience with 9th age proves you wrong. Besides its not just coming up. You also have to price it and then test it.
    Shooting cap...and ? You can still shoot like hell. HbE are sopposed to be a "shield" elves. Not arrow elves.
    Whether they are or not is for another discussion. This is about Sea Guard and my view on the situation.
    16 (spears as base cost) + 2 bow + 2 extra stuff ontop. as said 20ppm.
    done. now playtest it and be happy that you can now use seaguard.

    shoot "like hell" is also very exaggerated. "shoot like hell" here means QG and 3 bolt throwers, thats it and then your shooting is maxed out. HBE shooting ist not even the best shooting. all other shooting options HBE offers are outshot in damage per point significantly.

    last but not least, shooty countercharge is supposed to be a valid competitive playstyle for HBE.
  • Evaenarion wrote:

    HbE are supposed to be a "shield" elves. Not arrow elves.
    I also think it's an outrage that Queen's Guard can't take shields!!!!!! :thumbdown:

    Evaenarion wrote:

    2) SPEAR + BOW: give spear elves possibility to buy bows, name changes into Sea Guard, 0-2 units per army, max.unit size 30, counts towards Queens Bows as well as Core of course.That´s it. Incredibly easy, also very easy to balance.
    + 2 points more expensive, than regular spears (18 pts per model), min unit size 15 for 300 pts.
    I would support this.
    Although I wouldn't mind keeping SiER for an extra 1 ppm.
    This forum need polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Playing/painting: SA, DE & HbE ..
  • KittenHugz wrote:

    So essentially the main suggestion is down to removing the special rules from Sea Guard, being tanky mid range archers is enough of a benefit without tacking on special rules.

    This may be a topic for another thread, but what do you think should happen to the Fleet Officer?
    Heavy armor is a trap for seaguard. Anything that does not let seaguard move fast and shoot well is a trap. All extra stuff will cost a bit and again weight them down plus kill the shooting category cap. It promotes castling and marines in heavy armor may not work in lore aswell. Their shooting have no outstanding features to make them work as armored archers and beside that it steps on the toes of archers.
  • Evaenarion wrote:

    We do not need another shooting unit in core with just bows that is being made playable (attempts) by adding bunch of complicated, and unfortunately, pretty useless rules. We also do not have time and work power to come up with other more specified shooting option (like mentioned, shorter ranger, higher strength shooting etc). Also, constantly improving shooting parts of our army is consistently pushing us towards gunlines with counter charge / avoidance. It is my firm believe this is not a play style HbE players would want. Although it has been, and always will be, very powerful (to the point of utterly boring to the enemy) approach.

    3 ways how to deal with the guard

    1) REMOVE IT: it has caused enough trouble and ate up enough of everybody´s time already! There are many other issues in our book we should look into. Model-wise whatever. They still are usable as speareleves. I think almost everyone has them as spears with bows on their backs anyway.

    2) SPEAR + BOW: give spear elves possibility to buy bows, name changes into Sea Guard, 0-2 units per army, max.unit size 30, counts towards Queens Bows as well as Core of course.
    That´s it. Incredibly easy, also very easy to balance.
    + 2 points more expensive, than regular spears (18 pts per model), min unit size 15 for 300 pts.
    So...you will get 20 archers for 350, 20 Spears for 240 and 20 Sea Guard for 390
    Shifting base cost, or per model cost, would then be peace of cake for Balancing or RT board and can happen during the smallest of updates based on overall situation.

    3) ELITE DEFENSIVE CORE: pretty much where we are now.

    So...IMO it is either variant 1 or 2. The alternative currently used variant 3 has repeatedly led to dead ends, incredible amount of pages on the forum and quiet a lot of poison. Useless. Absolutely. Waste of time and effort.
    This is the perfect analysis and offered solution for Sea Guard.
    I hope someone writing the rules is reading this and implements it.

    I'd just like to expand the Option 2, to have Sea Guard as either a Spears upgrade or a Queens Guard upgrade. Rules for them- nothing extra, just something different then the main unit. Maybe some sinergy with the Fleet Officer. And to keep the cost as close as possible to the original unit cost.
  • Noldor wrote:

    I thought about loosing Def 5 and getting old profile back. Make them light troops while having scoring + getting Dev-Charge (Bowshot). Steady Aim and Cover Volley could stay or at least cover volley can be dropped.

    Dev-Charge (Bowshot) could be explored for all light troops.

    Can also imagine making them Adv 6/March 12 then.
    light troops was suggested before and people were be afraid of "avoidance" seaguard with S3 bows.
    (regardless of the fact you exchange your S4 high aim shooting for pathetic bows)
  • I typed in the main hbe discussion threat so won't repeat here but to summarise ;
    Compare SG to Clan Marksmen and see how a proper multi role unit should be. They cost 23ppm but I'd be surprised if hbe players complained about having CM instead of SG at 23ppm.

    Again CM are for dorks and this is not about nerfing them but pointing out why SG is a lost cause.