No more copyright paranoia

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The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

  • No more copyright paranoia

    I think it's better for both the game and community if the team stops worrying about getting a C&D from Games Workshop. Ever since 1.2 the game has lost it's flavour and the early 2.0 version of WotDG showed us the consequence of caving in to the fear. And if GW wanted to bring us down, they would've already done it. But they know they can only thank themselves for it and the biggest legal team supporter, Tom Kirby, is gone after his position as GW's CEO has become untenable due to his destructive behavior (hostile towards employees, neglecting Fantasy). And most wargamers outside of the tourney scene and forums will always see T9A as the legacy edition of WHFB. And by trying to move away every time it will only alienate more wargamers.

    The fear for a copyright strike from a company that isn't interested in doing it is nothing but a mind killer.
  • Even if what you claim is right, and I believe it isn't, which right do we have to use their IP?

    As a project, it is way healtier to develop own bg than stealing bg from someone. And, on top of that, people has the WHF bg already. If you want to call bestigors the longhorns, do it.

    But, indeed, GW killed old good WHF bg, developed a sucessor and expanded it. It is their decision, and it has to be respected.

    On top of that, we gain a new bg, so we can choose which one we can use. And since it is T9A bg, T9A armies have to adapt to that bg, but if you want a Khorne Warriors of Chaos army, youcan have it.
  • Even if GW wouldn't send a CD letter the Project has no intention to partake in illegal activities or create our products in a manner that would give third parties power over it,

    :)

    Background Team

    Rules Team

    Conceptual Design

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- :BH: :DL: :DE: :DH: :EoS: :HE: :ID: :KoE: :OK: :O&G: :SA: :SE_bw: :VS: :UD_bw: :VC: :WDG:
  • Lionhammer wrote:

    I think it's better for both the game and community if the team stops worrying about getting a C&D from Games Workshop.
    Agreed. Which is why T9A is developing it's own background - so GW have no basis to issue a C&D.

    Lionhammer wrote:

    most wargamers outside of the tourney scene and forums will always see T9A as the legacy edition of WHFB.
    T9A has taken on the mantle of Fantasy mass battle wargaming. This doesn't mean that it is WHFB

    Lionhammer wrote:

    The fear for a copyright strike from a company that isn't interested in doing it
    Isn't CURRENTLY interested in doing so. GW could change their mind tomorrow or next week or next month and then T9A would be screwed if they used WFB background.

    Your argument is essentially the same as "it's ok to steal if you don't get caught."
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Games Workshop wrote:


    A Wealth of Creativity

    Games Workshop has been developing games and sculpting miniatures for over 30 years. A great number of Games Workshop artists, writers and other creative professionals have contributed to producing the unique universes that are enjoyed by our fans all over the world. From Stormcast Eternals and Skullreapers to Eldar and Space Marines, Games Workshop has created iconic characters and worlds for them to inhabit.
    As the creator, Games Workshop owns a number of rights collectively referred to as intellectual property (IP) rights. These include:
    • Copyrights – This is the exclusive right to produce copies of our creations. It covers our miniatures, artwork, books, logos, website images and text, contents of White Dwarf etc. It not only covers exact copies but also anything which copies a significant part, typically the most important and unique features.
    • Trademarks – These are marks (names, logos, icons, symbols and so on) which identify a product as being produced by Games Workshop or by an official licensee. Our trademarks include Games Workshop, Warhammer, Warhammer Age of Sigmar, Warhammer 40,000, 40K, Citadel, Space Marine, Stormcast Eternal, and the Aquila (double headed eagle) but there are many more. Please see here for more information.


    (...)

    • Please do not contact us asking for specific permissions. We do not give express permissions except in respect of licences (see ‘Licensing’ below) but as long as you’re celebrating the hobby in accordance with this policy, we are unlikely to object to your use of our intellectual property.

    StormRider Games
    StormRider Facebook
    _____________Report your battle results using mobile app: T9A Magic Flux!
  • And 'celebrating the hobby' conditions according to GW DO INCLUDE:
    • No professional distribution. Please do not professionally distribute (whether free of charge or for payment) anything you have produced which contains our IP.
    Which means if Project was using GW Copyright it would be breaching GW's definition of 'celebrating the hobby' as the materials are distributed through download page in a professional way...
    StormRider Games
    StormRider Facebook
    _____________Report your battle results using mobile app: T9A Magic Flux!
  • I'm not sure what it is you are advocating here @Lionhammer? The decisions that are being taken on game direction are not dictated by old or pre-existing systems. Sure, we may have been concerned with them some time ago, but what we are doing now really has nothing to do with GW. Why are we still talking about them?
  • I will just quote myself from another thread:


    Konrad von Richtmark wrote:

    If you like the Old World so much, why not play in the Old World using the T9A rules? Pretty much every unit that has existed in any of the couple last editions of WFB has a corresponding unit in T9A, with rules that (with very few exceptions) make the units work similarly to the corresponding ones. Something that will almost inevitably be the case as long as T9A has the objective of letting people use their existing model collections. A unit entry meant to let people use their models of elves with two-handed axes isn't suddenly going to get rules that make it a unit that puts out a large number of low-strength attacks ideal for mowing down masses of flimsy enemies.
    Sunna is not with the big battalions, but with the ones whose parts move with the best coordination.
  • Lionhammer wrote:

    I think it's better for both the game and community if the team stops worrying about getting a C&D from Games Workshop. Ever since 1.2 the game has lost it's flavour and the early 2.0 version of WotDG showed us the consequence of caving in to the fear. And if GW wanted to bring us down, they would've already done it. But they know they can only thank themselves for it and the biggest legal team supporter, Tom Kirby, is gone after his position as GW's CEO has become untenable due to his destructive behavior (hostile towards employees, neglecting Fantasy). And most wargamers outside of the tourney scene and forums will always see T9A as the legacy edition of WHFB. And by trying to move away every time it will only alienate more wargamers.

    The fear for a copyright strike from a company that isn't interested in doing it is nothing but a mind killer.
    Sorry to be so direct, but it is easier to say that when it is not your a.s which risk to be kicked :D
    If I was one of the initiators of the project, I would take every thing possible to protect me (and my family) from bankruptcy due to a legal conflict with GW
  • I, too, expect my uninformed opinion to be taken seriously.

    In order to make this post constructive, I’m pretty fed up/tired of seeing the same bloody threads month after month:

    • IP whining
    • Why are you changing so much/so quickly
    • The anti-chaff lobby
    Please can the forum moderators create three threads, somewhere, to specifically discuss the above and lock/delete any new threads created on the same subjects.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • Mirdhynn wrote:

    Sorry to be so direct, but it is easier to say that when it is not your a.s which risk to be kicked
    If I was one of the initiators of the project, I would take every thing possible to protect me (and my family) from bankruptcy due to a legal conflict with GW
    Not only that.

    The number of donated working hours by our staff is breath taking. It would be more than just bad project management if we would allow all of that to be depended from any third party, no matter who.
  • On top of good reasons already mentioned, it should be remembered there are setting background reasons for it all, beyond safety considerations and legal posturing.

    Please consider that Warhammer as a historically based classic fantasy setting was brilliantly crafted over 30 years of development by many talented hands and learned minds. Yet even as the pinnacle of historically based fantasy to date, it fell short of its own excellent model in several areas. It never delivered a Cathay army list, and missed a no-brainer opportunity to add human kingdoms into the Southlands based on historical realms, to name but two misses.

    A Warhammer legacy project set in the Warhammer world (at lawyer's risk) could invent e.g. whole Southland realms where none existed before on the Warhammer map, simply on the basis of history with an over-the-top Warhammer twist. But chances are it might end up chafing. After all, Warhammer Fantasy remains Games Workshop's prodigy, and the setting will continue on in computer games if nothing else and, who knows, might even get revived by GW one day, so where would all the big legacy inventions fit into the living material?

    T9A, being Warhammer's spiritual successor, can instead work with much the same model of historically based fantasy which Warhammer did (and it's a great benchmark, with much work already done, even for purposes of consciously deviating from Warhammer and giving background aspects one's own twist) and add inventions to the map which doesn't chafe. The Ninth Age can go farther, much farther, with the historically based fantasy which Warhammer operated on. And while some inventions such as Terracotta Army and Disciples of Lughar can be seamlessly reverse-engineered back into Warhammer Fantasy, other things like Kegiz Gavem (compare Karak Zorn) and Avras simply cannot without chafing. These concepts are all things spawned so far by the Ninth Age (official - yet - or not):


    By Watchful Studios: Terracotta army


    By Helblindi: Disciple of Lughar - Daemonically possessed fanatic berzerker on fire - reverse-engineered into K'daai Cultist


    Slave Orc Heads


    Kegiz Gavem brainstorming.


    Avras, by a T9A artist.

    To name but a few from the top of my head - check out the Homebrew army book section for some more things, all done in the spirit of Warhammer, often covering gaps in the original Warhammer world now that we're having a fresh start, a new chance to build on what came before, much as Warhammer built on Tolkien.

    Much of what is being crafted here can easily fit into the Old World, but much of it will chafe. Especially if Games Workshop proper resurrected the Old World in the future.

    Call the Ninth Age setting and game a Warhammer clone or a parallell Warhammer dimension if you will: The end result is that the ingenious and beloved model of the world's thus-far richest fantasy smörgåsbord setting is carried over into and continued in a living setting which aims to go further than Warhammer Fantasy did. And Warhammer Fantasy was the king of historically based fantasy.

    You'd usually find me willing to snark at modern Intellectual Property mania (I can share curses over Google Image stock photo plague and Kirby's decision to axe WHFB if you like), but even so I find T9A's position to be sensible, even if the lawyers-speak interest me nil. And just as importantly, the creative side of this legacy project would not benefit in the long run from being faithfully tied to the Warhammer Fantasy setting.

    Background-wise, tying T9A to the Old World would run a strong risk of it growing stale over time, by necessity of adhering closely to the inherited material. Better cut loose and set sail for brave horizons under one's own ensign.

    And while we're watching this background grow ever richer and more immersive, waiting for it to capture our imagination and run away with it wholesale just like Warhammer did, just do what most of us still does: Play T9A with Warhammer fantasy firmly in your head.

    The post was edited 10 times, last by Karak Norn Clansman ().