Bring back the old magic spells to 2.0

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  • Seems like the project isn't going to go down that path for the reasons put in the OP and more (magic supporting the background as the BGT means it, for example). However, I'm sure there are others who were fond of the old paths like you. Why not start a homebrew document? The discussion would revolve less about "do you think it's a good idea" and more about "what would it look like in the 2.0 rules".
  • Izomov wrote:

    I'm all for bringing back fully fledged army specific paths, that would be cool as hell.
    I'm of two minds about this.

    On one hand, it would be great to have army specific paths again. I loved the old ogre path and the old ID path. They were very flavorful and really helped sell the identity of those armies.

    On the other hand, there is the very real concern that they would make magic very flat. Why bother taking shamanism or druidism if the racial path specifically fills the needs of your army. I know that during v1.1, I ONLY ever took the Path of the Forge on my ID. They had access to other paths, but why bother? Path of the Forge had everything I could want for my army.

    I think that the current magic setup is almost perfect. Each path has something specific they do (and you get to choose the spells you want, so you can base your army around what your wizards are going to do). If I take alchemy, it is because I want to have an answer to armor (or want to boost my armor, or maybe want to play with flammability), and thus don't need to fill the rest of my army with anti-armor tools if I don't want to. If I take pyromancy, it is because I want to be able to deal with lots of small, low armor units, and thus don't need to fill the rest of my army with tools specifically to deal with those types of units. Plus, with hereditary spells, no matter what you choose for your magic path, you always have something that is specific to your army (while some of those spells could use some work, there is no denying that the flavor is there).

    The problem is path access. Some armies don't necessarily have the tools to deal with certain types of units through magic. KoE doesn't really have access to a tool for dealing with lots of small, unarmored targets. Their light shooting isn't fantastic, and they don't have pyromancy to deal with it through magic. I think that if each army got access to one more path across the board, it would help magic choice quite a bit.
  • I want racial magic paths back too. WE don't even have to have two, like we used to. But there's so much stuff in there I sorely miss. Including the plague lore. But then, there's all the stuff that was just very necessary for us to have a chance in close combat. Death Frenzy is super flavourful and gives us enough attacks to make a difference. Lowering enemy toughness means our S3 attacks can actualyl be threatening. Same for poison. Now, we just don't have anything like that.
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  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    The spell isn't really all that scary either.
    For some armies, sure it's potentially dangerous but it won't use a template so if we go with something like Area Attack(3) that's potentially just 9 models hit, which isn't a big deal even for in2 models as they're only suffering 6 wounds from the spell.

    For things like Ogre Deathstars it would be problematic, but that's a Deathstar which is an inherently risky way to play the game.
    It would be a problem for all monstrous infantry units which generally have low Agility (think Trolls, Ogres, etc) and rank up in 3s. A unit of 3 or 6 could be completely wiped out.

    I'm not a fan of the old spells like this. In WFB it was a legitimate tactic to 6 dice Dwellers with your wizard in a cheap archer unit hoping for a miscast. Even if you don't miscast, it's very difficult for your opponent to stop if cast.

    Spells like these are devastating to some armies and laughable to others.

    lawgnome wrote:

    KoE doesn't really have access to a tool for dealing with lots of small, unarmored targets. Their light shooting isn't fantastic, and they don't have pyromancy to deal with it through magic.
    Really? This is news to me.

    Our cheap(ish) 15 man archer units + Braziers + light cover for 180 points don't deal with unarmoured targets? Yea, they aren't a top unit, but they're more than capable of forcing panic tests on chaff units each turn (2.5 wounds a turn at long range vs Res3). Their biggest problem in the list is they're too static for a Cavalry army.

    Brigands are loved by many. 175 points for 10 skirmishing, Q2F, 3+ to hit, longbowmen with scout. They achieve 2.5 wounds at long range which is the same as longbowmen but can't have flaming arrows for those pesky Fortitude saves.

    There's also mounted yeomen. 130 gets you 5 with towing weapons and the manoeuvrability to get into short range with the serf rule. 10 points gets them a 4+ AS instead of a 6+ to give them some staying power. They're less effective than archers (1.67 wounds a turn at short range vs Res3) but cheaper and more manoeuvrable.

    And for larger or tougher units of unarmoured targets, a unit of 5 aspirants to the face tends to do it. 5 of them in one rank output 10, Str5 attacks and 5, Str4 attacks on the charge all with Off3. That's 5.83 wounds against Res3 leaving the enemy that's left (if any) to take a test on -6.83.

    lawgnome wrote:

    The problem is path access. Some armies don't necessarily have the tools to deal with certain types of units through magic.
    I agree with you here. Some armies don't have all the tools they need within their magic paths.

    Having said that, if you gave KoE Pyromancy I'm not sure many people would take it. It's more important to get combat buffs (Divination), Healing (Druidism) or whatever Shamanism does. All of these paths have damage spells that can assist with the clearing of unarmoured/lightly armoured chaff and most cavalry isn't capable of reliably breaking units without magical support in the form of buffs or hexes.

    We do have the manoeuvrability to take advantage of Pyromancy's aura spells but I don't feel they compliment the knights enough. Others might disagree though.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • lawgnome wrote:

    I never see much in the way of shooting outside of trebs when I against KoE. It was the first example I could think of.

    There are probably better examples of path access being too limited. Maybe WDG would have been a better example?
    True - mainly because a small knight unit can keep up and take out the lightly armoured chaff units and offer more in the later turns.

    I know that some armies don't get the same mileage out of magic due because the synergies don't stack up and that could be fixed by tweaking spells. I thought the team were mega against path access changes, for background reasons?
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Sir_Sully wrote:

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    The spell isn't really all that scary either.
    It would be a problem for all monstrous infantry units which generally have low Agility (think Trolls, Ogres, etc) and rank up in 3s. A unit of 3 or 6 could be completely wiped out.
    Could be, but its unlikely even with Trolls.
    If you've got a unit of 6 you don't need to deploy them so they will all be hit either.

    Sir_Sully wrote:

    In WFB it was a legitimate tactic to 6 dice Dwellers with your wizard in a cheap archer unit hoping for a miscast.
    :huh: that's not a thing in this game.
  • theunwantedbeing wrote:

    If you've got a unit of 6 you don't need to deploy them so they will all be hit either.
    If you've got a unit of 6 it makes sense to deploy them 3 by 2. But you are correct, I don't have to do this. It doesn't change my opinion of these sorts of spells. They are too powerful for one spell.

    theunwantedbeing wrote:

    that's not a thing in this game.
    Yea, there are wizard bunkers and sometimes people think a spell is worth miscasting on. How many of T9A spells are realistically capable of clearing out 2/3rds of a unit? And 9 is more of a medium sized unit for Monstrous infantry.

    Additionally, Miscasts do not result in irresistible force in T9A. So although you get a large number for the dispeller to try to get to and it's often very difficult or impossible to dispel the spell, it's not always impossible to dispel it - especially now you can miscast on any triple.

    Taking out the devastating spells has resulted in magic becoming more tactical - generally you can't just cast a spell that takes out half or more of an enemy unit, by ignoring the unit's toughness, armour and special saves that have all be bought and paid for.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • lawgnome wrote:

    Izomov wrote:

    I'm all for bringing back fully fledged army specific paths, that would be cool as hell.
    I'm of two minds about this.
    On one hand, it would be great to have army specific paths again. I loved the old ogre path and the old ID path. They were very flavorful and really helped sell the identity of those armies.

    On the other hand, there is the very real concern that they would make magic very flat. Why bother taking shamanism or druidism if the racial path specifically fills the needs of your army. I know that during v1.1, I ONLY ever took the Path of the Forge on my ID. They had access to other paths, but why bother? Path of the Forge had everything I could want for my army.
    I did have the thought recently that perhaps the number of hereditaries could go up. Like 2 per army or something?

    I would love to see some more of the creative army-specific spells back.