Vampiric protection: when is it too much?

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  • Vampiric protection: when is it too much?

    I'm an elf player so I'm used to t3 Lords, casters, generals, everything. So I look for 2+/4++ as essential. But a Vampire is base t5... But but, if it dies you have crumble. I know with dwarf Lords they're hardy enough that there comes a point where doubling down on protection becomes a poor return for your poonts; I'm wondering if it's the sMe with vampires.
    For example, a lamia lord. You could take 2+ armour and a ward/regen, or destiny call and distracting. And you could back this up with the red thirst sword. But you might be better off saving the points and simply getting a mundane gw, for example. Or an exciting weapon enchantment.

    But I dont have the in game xp to know at what point it's 'safe' to stop investing in defense.

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  • supermercado08 wrote:

    Destiny, Night's Crown and Sword of True Thirst on my Lord! And I still manage to get her killed in the first round of combat a lot :(
    Night's crown looks really strong, but this is clearly a maximum defence set up. Do you think it is points well invested?

    What sort of things kill her first round of combat? One shotting this seems like a mean feat for anything without MW/stomps, and even then she's not exactly defenceless. Was this just bad luck or are there some serious badasses out there that can do that fairly reliably?
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  • ferny wrote:

    supermercado08 wrote:

    Destiny, Night's Crown and Sword of True Thirst on my Lord! And I still manage to get her killed in the first round of combat a lot :(
    Night's crown looks really strong, but this is clearly a maximum defence set up. Do you think it is points well invested?
    What sort of things kill her first round of combat? One shotting this seems like a mean feat for anything without MW/stomps, and even then she's not exactly defenceless. Was this just bad luck or are there some serious badasses out there that can do that fairly reliably?
    Kadim titan WAS 1 shotting her until I put in the Night's Crown. Lord on a Great Bull 1 shots her because the guy I play usually has a multiwound weapon on him so he just needs to sneak in 2 hits with EVERYTHING going into her. I run her in a Barrow GW unit so I have MAX defense on her since the unit doesn't need help killing, she's there for Stubborn and True Thirst allows me to constantly raise the champion back if i need it. Since most units don't chew through 30-40 BG in 1 round, they aim at my general a lot to start the crumble fest. And one time I tried to 1v1 a Greater Demon without the Night's Crown. I lost.... With the Night's crown I probably would have survived a bit longer. So I find the Night's Crown worth it in a unit that doesn't need the offense.
  • It is true that if you are running your vamp in a unit, even with just a 4++, there is very few players who will even allocate attacks at your vamp. Its almost always the right choice to target the unit and try to get enough combat res to crumble the unit. In that case 100pts is acceptable for defensive items.

    However if you want your vampire running around blending everyone circa 8th edition, then there is generally no diminishing returns. The vampire even with only mundane weapons can put out the hurt, double so with BotD. The build that won my local tournament is BotD Count on a horse with the legend of the black king and the eternity gem, Which makes him a 1+,4++ immune to multi wounds, then with Botd and weapon master all the weapons, and you just run around murdering everything as no one has brought a counter to that guy.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • Dwarven Holds Kings have something very important Vampires don't have: Shieldbearers (and Thrones).

    Those extra two wounds go a loooooong way.

    That said, a 4+ Ward and Distracting is pretty good defense. I've run Lamia vampires with that as their defensive kit and been happy with the outcomes. Just remember to use that March 12 to run away from Dwarf Kings and other things that are nastier than she is. (One of my fonder T9A memories is the surprise my opponent experienced when they vanguard-marched their dwarven deathbrick right up into the face of my skeleton block with my general... and she promptly left the unit and headed off to a different section of the battlefield. The skeletons ground off some dwarves, the cavalry arrived, deathbrick got squashed, everyone died happily ever after)

    (I remember it fondly not least because it was like my third T9A game ever :) )

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  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Dwarven Holds Kings have something very important Vampires don't have: Shieldbearers (and Thrones).

    Those extra two wounds go a loooooong way.

    That said, a 4+ Ward and Distracting is pretty good defense. I've run Lamia vampires with that as their defensive kit and been happy with the outcomes. Just remember to use that March 12 to run away from Dwarf Kings and other things that are nastier than she is. (One of my fonder T9A memories is the surprise my opponent experienced when they vanguard-marched their dwarven deathbrick right up into the face of my skeleton block with my general... and she promptly left the unit and headed off to a different section of the battlefield. The skeletons ground off some dwarves, the cavalry arrived, deathbrick got squashed, everyone died happily ever after)

    (I remember it fondly not least because it was like my third T9A game ever :) )
    Im guilty of having my general pop smoke when I see bad news coming.

    "Haha bye Felicia"
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.


    Chaotic Neutral


  • Excellent question. Imho it's a delicate balance because you want to protect your vampire from being killed outright and there are a lot of characters and units out there that pose a threat to do just that. The other side of the coin is that your vampire can die without being targeted in combat if your opponent wins combat by enough. Therefore, there is definitely an element of offensive output actually boosting survivability. The more combat res the vampire adds, the better.

    I'd say ultimately it depends on what role the vampire is taking on. If you are doing a Lamia vampire with the OS/DS boosted barrow guard with great weapons/halberds then what damage the vampire does isn't as important so I'd invest highly in defense. However, take the same barrow guard unit equipped with sword and board and all of a sudden you might want a vampire that can kill 5+ models a turn.
  • duxbuse wrote:

    Extraordinary Legionnaire wrote:

    However, take the same barrow guard unit equipped with sword and board and all of a sudden you might want a vampire that can kill 5+ models a turn.
    Or a new list.
    Ha! But ive seen lists that take advantage of the parry, extra point or armor, combined with stubborn to create a very durable unit but still played in line formation to put out a respectable amount of damage - then the characters in the unit do the heavy lifting. Dont forget shields are cheaper option so you can afford more bodies in the unit or more points in other hammers. So whilst I'm not advocating for shield as the best option, I believe it can be viable.
  • Extraordinary Legionnaire wrote:

    duxbuse wrote:

    Extraordinary Legionnaire wrote:

    However, take the same barrow guard unit equipped with sword and board and all of a sudden you might want a vampire that can kill 5+ models a turn.
    Or a new list.
    Ha! But ive seen lists that take advantage of the parry, extra point or armor, combined with stubborn to create a very durable unit but still played in line formation to put out a respectable amount of damage - then the characters in the unit do the heavy lifting. Dont forget shields are cheaper option so you can afford more bodies in the unit or more points in other hammers. So whilst I'm not advocating for shield as the best option, I believe it can be viable.
    6's are still killing blows so, sword and board is kinda sorta maybe viable.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.


    Chaotic Neutral


  • Extraordinary Legionnaire wrote:

    duxbuse wrote:

    Extraordinary Legionnaire wrote:

    However, take the same barrow guard unit equipped with sword and board and all of a sudden you might want a vampire that can kill 5+ models a turn.
    Or a new list.
    Ha! But ive seen lists that take advantage of the parry, extra point or armor, combined with stubborn to create a very durable unit but still played in line formation to put out a respectable amount of damage - then the characters in the unit do the heavy lifting. Dont forget shields are cheaper option so you can afford more bodies in the unit or more points in other hammers. So whilst I'm not advocating for shield as the best option, I believe it can be viable.
    I'm always taking BG with Shields. In a big unit with Banner of Zagvozd (and maybe a Vampire with True Thirst) I've always found their offensive more than sufficient (overkill even). Worst case scenario in 99% of cases is that they don't give up their points and that I at least didn't pay for expensive weapon options
  • I'm roughly planning a lamia with big brick of barrow guard AND big brick of skellington spears, with a view to putting her in the skellies more often than not (bg seem solid solo, no?)

    I kinda feel 4+4++ distracting is the most efficient load out. Feels strange not maximising armour, coming from an elven background, but seems OK here.

    Thanks for the comments I think you've given me the confidence to try out. Might even play the HERETIC card ;)
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  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    6's are still killing blows so, sword and board is kinda sorta maybe viable.
    So 24 guard in line formation with no banner you get 2 lethal strikes per turn. If you put a character in there, you have access to the hypnotic pendant. So barrow guard with shields would only be good as the second unit, cause the first unit has the pendant and hence already has parry.

    24 barrow guard with command and shields still costs 481 points

    Presuming you already have a unit (31) with say halberds and the banner = 801 points

    So I started writing a post trying to prove why it wouldn't work but figured out a list that might actually work.

    THE LIST OF DOOM
    #freekillerinstinct
  • ferny wrote:

    I'm roughly planning a lamia with big brick of barrow guard AND big brick of skellington spears, with a view to putting her in the skellies more often than not (bg seem solid solo, no?)

    I kinda feel 4+4++ distracting is the most efficient load out. Feels strange not maximising armour, coming from an elven background, but seems OK here.

    Thanks for the comments I think you've given me the confidence to try out. Might even play the HERETIC card ;)
    The general rule I've found is that no point investment is too high if the vampire is the general. Since the result of losing the model is essentially an auto-lose you need to not lose that model. Oftentimes your additional points in protections let you feel safe enough to put your vampire in some combats that you may not otherwise put them in. with models that aren't your general it gets a bit trickier. Also, I would generally say Night's Crown is not the most efficient way to spend points on protections on a T5 model.

    As for the Lamnia vampire, the armour of destiny is usually a pretty good build. It isn't invincible so I would recommend that you have a secondary block of skellies your vampire can run to if something really scary looks like it's coming.