Sam's optimum build

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  • Sam's optimum build

    This isnt me; just making an observation, identifying a problem and looking for solutions.

    Reading a recent thread in which a poster was venting their frustration that their old list doesnt work, and they are quiting. Ive seen similar posts before, and im sure for every angry quits there are 5 silent ones.

    A common thread of these posts are that their old maxxed out list doesnt work, because its not maxxed anymore. And there are no maxxed alternatives to swtich to, so to an old school whfb, everything is worse. The shift to trimming off the overpowered to achieve balance is a subtle but significant one.

    To use a DnD comparison, my old super powered, min-maxxed paladin isnt super awesome, and now you want me to play for flavour? Boo...

    Now dont get me wrong, im a fan of balance- to me its the greatest accomplishment of this team. Hurrahs all round.

    But the problem is, can we afford to lose people who dont quite understand the subtle difference? Is the solution just education?
  • I think that if you are a player that need obviously superpowered elements, and have interest neither in fine tuning lists nor "play for flavour" as you say, T9A is probably not the best game for you.
    Can we afford to lose these players? Well, I would answer by another question: now that T9A has reached that level of balance (and been advertised with this quality since the beginning), can we afford not to maintain it? I think the damage would be far worse if we went that way. You can't have your cake and eat it. There are some aspects where the game just needs to make a choice and roll with it, accepting that it won't be favored by everyone. Considering there are other games on the market that already cater to the type of players you describe, I think it's a good thing that T9A went this way. It creates the opportunity for anyone to play the kind of game they enjoy.
  • I think this game is currently still not balanced. Their are still choices in army books that will never get played due to other options being so much better (bad internal balance) and then their are some builds that down right ridiculous to play against. So far with the new update I'm 6-0 with all of my games ending by turn 3 or 4 with my opponents simply giving up, and basically telling me my army is garbage and im awful. I have never went 6-0 in anything I have ever done competitively! The closest thing I ever did was 4-0 and that was back in the tail end of 8th edition and that "feat" all revolved around luck. What I'm doing now is simply obliterating my opponents and stomping all of their dreams into the dirt. Seriously I'm taking any sense of balance or fun out of T9A, and it is making me want to stop playing due to how boring it is to win so hard.

    Honestly people just need to sit down and really think on what the design team is trying to secretly tell you what they want you to do with your army, and then build your army to that as hard as possible.
  • sam585 wrote:

    I think this game is currently still not balanced. Their are still choices in army books that will never get played due to other options being so much better (bad internal balance) and then their are some builds that down right ridiculous to play against. So far with the new update I'm 6-0 with all of my games ending by turn 3 or 4 with my opponents simply giving up, and basically telling me my army is garbage and im awful. I have never went 6-0 in anything I have ever done competitively! The closest thing I ever did was 4-0 and that was back in the tail end of 8th edition and that "feat" all revolved around luck. What I'm doing now is simply obliterating my opponents and stomping all of their dreams into the dirt. Seriously I'm taking any sense of balance or fun out of T9A, and it is making me want to stop playing due to how boring it is to win so hard.

    Honestly people just need to sit down and really think on what the design team is trying to secretly tell you what they want you to do with your army, and then build your army to that as hard as possible.
    which army are you using? What list? Not that i pretend to know much about anything but i cant think of a concept so strong that nothing could stand against it. Genuinely intrigued
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    sam585 wrote:

    I think this game is currently still not balanced. Their are still choices in army books that will never get played due to other options being so much better (bad internal balance) and then their are some builds that down right ridiculous to play against. So far with the new update I'm 6-0 with all of my games ending by turn 3 or 4 with my opponents simply giving up, and basically telling me my army is garbage and im awful. I have never went 6-0 in anything I have ever done competitively! The closest thing I ever did was 4-0 and that was back in the tail end of 8th edition and that "feat" all revolved around luck. What I'm doing now is simply obliterating my opponents and stomping all of their dreams into the dirt. Seriously I'm taking any sense of balance or fun out of T9A, and it is making me want to stop playing due to how boring it is to win so hard.

    Honestly people just need to sit down and really think on what the design team is trying to secretly tell you what they want you to do with your army, and then build your army to that as hard as possible.
    which army are you using? What list? Not that i pretend to know much about anything but i cant think of a concept so strong that nothing could stand against it. Genuinely intrigued
    Basically just the same thing I have always ran ID with immortal star+overlord+wizard master.

    Taking x2 flamethrowers to demolish anything that is ranked up.

    Taking flaming on flintlocks to maximize their shooting potential for a turn (since flamethrowers can make you flammable).

    Immortals are 29 strong+hordes for max hatred potential and to assure good usage from turn 2 battle focus.

    4 chaff units in total (wolves, wolf khan, and x2 flamethrowers)

    And finally the really ridiculous combo of occultism+15" march banner. Turn 1 I walk up and delete/devestate something with the grave calls. Last game I played I basically won turn 1 with nuking a chariot (the only thing that could of messed up my battle plan) and killing a master beast shaman with powered up marked for doom. At the end of all 6 games the best strategy I could come up with (for my opponents) is just castle/ do not engage. But how is that fun or fair for them?

    Now I bet empire/vc/and dreadelves could be an issue depending on their build, I can't just muscle through some of their units.
    But my local players lizardman, ogres, beast herd, demons, and high elves just simply were not up to task, and I don't know why.

    I'm not the greatest player by any means, I make plenty of small mistakes, but since 204 it has not mattered. And my group has not magically got worst at the game I had a pretty much 50/50 chance of beating my regular opponents, but, nothing like how it is now.

    It honestly is probably an issue with:
    Flamethrowers in general.
    Flamethrower pricing for Infernal Dwarfs.
    Battle focus and hatred for Chaos Dwarfs.
    Being able to march a d.star 15" on turn 1 and have occultism magic.
    Occultism in general is crazy strong once you get around short ranges.
  • Thanks for taking the time to run through that. I havent played against infernal dwarfs much in 2.04, just once infact, but i had the same feeling that there was very little i could do to win the game. I could have run away and scored some points but thats not how i roll! I feel the same against the good guy dwarfs to be fair, no chance of a win, barring great luck and the only viable sane tactic is to hide and try not to bleed points but thats no fun!

    Hopefully someone in your gaming group finds a way to give you more of a game, winning every game is nearly as boring as losing every game (no experience of that in t9a but i sure did get tired of 20-0ing everyone in 8th ed!)
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • sam585 wrote:

    And finally the really ridiculous combo of occultism+15" march banner.
    On this, I have felt for a long time that the 15 inch march banner needs to go. It is a massive crutch and causes silly stuff like what you listed (rush forward at speeds the unit should not be capable of and blast stuff with spells that should be balanced by low range), and is a janky brainless way of winning on objectives at the last second.

    It also restricts designs (I am dead serious) because of its sheer existence. And makes infantry units basically medium cavalry level speed for a single turn.

    It's also a very one-sided item. Some armies see less use for it, while others that have lower movement basically get a rocket strapped to their backs. Banner of Speed is much more balanced, as it gives everyone the same boost to all units equally.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Tyranno ().

  • sam585 wrote:

    Now I bet empire/vc/and dreadelves could be an issue depending on their build, I can't just muscle through some of their units.
    But my local players lizardman, ogres, beast herd, demons, and high elves just simply were not up to task, and I don't know why.

    YungPabby wrote:

    you should post the full list. I would be shocked if it was as OP as you say.
    He said it is OP in his meta. When I read was reading his post I immediately thought "my empire can beat your list", ...and then he said that emprie probably could, lol.


    On a side note: Very interesting to see there are meta out there that are different from mine. Elves and Humans forever here in Edmonton. ...I am exaggerating because since T9A launched we've seen more players with different armies being used.
  • @sam585 do you Play on Universal battle? I am sure many participicants of the soon Shifting Tides tourney would like to Test their lists and Skills vs. yours. At least I would like.
    I contribute to :

    TA / ACS / PT / Content

    Translation / United Nation DE

    The work of TA and where to report your lists. An app to report your games.
  • Damo wrote:

    But the problem is, can we afford to lose people who dont quite understand the subtle difference? Is the solution just education?
    Yes, we can afford to lose people with that mindset, its generally not appropriate for a competitive game.

    Its best to build something that is the best thing for like 20% of its potential audience, than to make something that no one hates but also no one loves.


    sam585 wrote:

    I think this game is currently still not balanced. Their are still choices in army books that will never get played due to other options being so much better (bad internal balance) and then their are some builds that down right ridiculous to play against. So far with the new update I'm 6-0 with all of my games ending by turn 3 or 4 with my opponents simply giving up, and basically telling me my army is garbage and im awful. I have never went 6-0 in anything I have ever done competitively! The closest thing I ever did was 4-0 and that was back in the tail end of 8th edition and that "feat" all revolved around luck. What I'm doing now is simply obliterating my opponents and stomping all of their dreams into the dirt. Seriously I'm taking any sense of balance or fun out of T9A, and it is making me want to stop playing due to how boring it is to win so hard.

    Honestly people just need to sit down and really think on what the design team is trying to secretly tell you what they want you to do with your army, and then build your army to that as hard as possible.
    Good for you bro! People learn at different rates. Maybe you've outgrown your group for now, or maybe you've genuinely come across something strong - take it to some events and see how it handles itself there. There isn't a single person who can either certify or belittle your streak with this amount of information at the moment
    Hristo Nikolov
  • Back to the question:

    9th is a quite different game to previous whfb, more so than previous edition changes. but while significant they are very subtle.

    People are quitting because its different to what they are used, but its a decision based on ignorance. are we so elitist that we can afford to lose players because they havent worked it out for themselves? remember we dont have the grand advertising budget of gw.

    lets not turn into linux.
  • Despite how people may feel about keeping "ignorant" people around, they are better with us spreading a good word than against and bad-mouthing the game.

    It reminds me of my favourite quote; "I would rather have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in."

    Basically, it's better to have people on board than people spreading bile.


    The more people playing and contributing to this, the better. More ideas, more feedback, more people enjoying the game. Which is never a bad thing.
    Which is why this is more than just a competitive game, why we have art-teams and background-teams working hard so we can attract all sorts of players. So this game does not gradually die off and become nothing more than something one small group of people get to together to play once a year.
  • Just_Flo wrote:

    @sam585 do you Play on Universal battle? I am sure many participicants of the soon Shifting Tides tourney would like to Test their lists and Skills vs. yours. At least I would like.

    I can hop on and give it a shot. I want to get stomped too so I can point at your victory and say, "See?! This guy figured it! Its not OP at all 8-) ."

    Just need a time I'm on PST/ CA time.
  • What players have to realize when they come to T9A is that is is no longer a games workshop game.
    The net list is hard to find now. The obviously army builds are not the new units that you can buy and just throw together in an army and it works.
    Even if you find the min/maxed list, the margin that it is min/maxed by is so low that you can still lose very easily.


    The biggest thing about players who try to find the min/max list and going straight for the win is that they eventually burn out, figure out the combos, then the game no longer has appeal and they simply move on. Happens alot in 40k - probably the reason GW started pumping out new editions every 2 years because that seem to be the bordem turn-around for the complexity level of that game.

    So players have to come to enjoy other aspects of the hobby - the painting, the community, etc...

    Otherwise there is literally nothing that can be done to keep these gamers because they are just gamers - the game will get played out and they go to a new one. That is just how it works.
    ...edition changes, updates, etc... all help to keep the game fresh. But that is it.
  • I am only a medicore player which likes challenges. So no promise for a good show, but when we have coordinated the playing time I and sam is okay with it I will post it here.
    I contribute to :

    TA / ACS / PT / Content

    Translation / United Nation DE

    The work of TA and where to report your lists. An app to report your games.