How to get new players (ex. "I'm afraid this game has no way of getting any new players.")

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  • @Miki Panc

    a QS list from non-GW sources should cost equal to or less than 150 USD. this is on par with a big board game and much cheaper than AoS.

    Ideally, we should have a 'print and play' starter set on here using 1 QS lists. Printable 2d Terrain, printable 2d paper models, etc...

    Would be great at giving players a chance to play.

    Head of Lectors

    Quick Starter Team

    "...take a step back and remember that we are playing a game where we roll dice and move little people around the board."

    - Grouchy Badger

  • Miki Panc wrote:

    A bit off topic, but the main barrier of entry that I found is not the amount of miniatures, nor (to a certain extent) the rules: it's the entry cost: I actually have a full OnG army, but only because I bought the backbone of it ,around 100 orcs, from em4 (they are absurdly cheap, like, you won't believe it). I also recently convinced a friend to start playing with the QS (he plays "historically accurate equitania", meaning Equitania with as little magic as possible), only because it had a relatively small amount of models that he could buy cheaply (thanks Fireforge). The fact is that the cost of it all tends to scare newcomers, especially if, like me and my friend, they are in their teens and don't have the disposable income to do it in a decent amont of time! I propose that we create some sort of subcategory in the miniatures library to house the cheapest miniatures we can find (such as em4's orcs and dwarves) and the most convenient packs, like Warlord Games's napoleonic russian infantry, wich, for 32$ gives you: 28 r&f light infantry with handguns, a full command squad and a bsb!

    Miniature volume absolutely scares people, which is why I would really take a "as small approach as possible" with the quick starter. I mean thats all I think people really need. 1 rank of a uni vs 1 rank of a unit. They either fall in love with the to hit-to wound-armor save-leadership test system or they dont. Thats all it should really need. Then throw in some inspiration for larger units/games. Pictures. Don't dump the full rules on them.
  • I agree with you guys.
    Before applying for a position in the QS team, i thought a lot about the entry barriers to our game, and i isolated three:

    (1) rules are too complex
    (2) miniatures are too expensive
    (3) painting is too timeconsuming

    I know that many people enjoy cracking the rules, collecting miniatures over time, and perfecting their painting skills. But some people want to have some fun rather than get high on brain candy, some people have very limited financial resources, and some have little time for the hobby aspect. So complex rules, large armies and modelling prowess must be allowed for players who want the full experience, but for players who want/need a lower entry barrier we have to provide something easy, cheap and fast.

    I think that the QS team has done a good job with simplifying the rules (1), but since i am on the team, i am obviously biased, and we'll need your opinion on that - as soon as the rules are released. On this topic: maybe monday we'll have more exact news.

    The QS has also drastically reduced the number of models needed (2) to something between 15 and 50 (depending on the faction). This is good, but it is not enough. New players shouldnt need to invest more than 100$€£ to get the chance to start playing.

    That's why i have plans to allow TWO players to start playing by only investing something like 20-30€ each.

    Sure, for this price i hope you wouldnt expect a wagonload of beautiful miniatures. What i have in mind is a product that allows people to get to know the game, and to slowly build their armies, making sure they only need to buy and paint (3) a limited number of minis at a time. New players can buy a set, give the game a try, and decide if they want go on with the experince. Old players can buy a set and give it as a gift to their friends, in the hope of getting new souls to the game, but without having to buy/lend them a whole army.

    I realise i am not giving you much detail. But, as im sure you will understand, as long as i am on the T9A staff i will not start any commercial activity. and as long as i dont start the commercial activity i cannot give further details about my plans. But as soon as im done writing the QS rules with the QS team (and im done translating all the books in italian with the translation team), I'll be ready to invest my energies and means into something bigger. Maybe monday we could chat about this as well.

    Oh: by "monday" i mean during the livestream QS demo game on my youtube channel (8pm, GMT).

    Long story short: you guys are right. Ive been working on this for a year or so. The sowing is done, and the reaping will take place in the spring. We all need a bit more patience : )

    In the meantime, remember that you can always play the QS completely for free on your computers with Universal Battle. I drew models for every unit of the QS premade armylists, and typed in all of the unit profiles and rules and spells in the model infos - one by one.

    That's not too bad for a start - but then again, im probably biased ; )
  • ninepaces wrote:

    Miki Panc wrote:

    Miniature volume absolutely scares people, which is why I would really take a "as small approach as possible" with the quick starter. I mean thats all I think people really need. 1 rank of a uni vs 1 rank of a unit. They either fall in love with the to hit-to wound-armor save-leadership test system or they dont. Thats all it should really need. Then throw in some inspiration for larger units/games. Pictures. Don't dump the full rules on them.

    Well... at least to the kind of wargamer that I am, the number of models IS part of the appeal! It's awesome to see (almost) full-sized armies organised in rigid formations clash against one another in a life or death struggle! And, at least according to me, the rules are just a way to represent it in a fun and functional way, and not the main appeal, wich means that at least a force of around 1000 - 1500 points is a nice way to show new players how to play (of course the units should be special rules light, it's only meant to teach them the basics and not the full rules.

    kisanis wrote:

    @Miki Panc

    a QS list from non-GW sources should cost equal to or less than 150 USD. this is on par with a big board game and much cheaper than AoS.

    Ideally, we should have a 'print and play' starter set on here using 1 QS lists. Printable 2d Terrain, printable 2d paper models, etc...

    Would be great at giving players a chance to play.
    While I agree on your second point, the first one is not necessarily true, using the 1.2 QS, a force of 1300 points of KoE from Fireforge costs about 60-70 € (25 archers, 5 realm, 6 grail and a duke) or an eos one from Warlord would cost you 66$ (3× 10 light ,33 heavy and two marshals).
  • Calisson wrote:

    Great explanations, @piteglio!

    If the remaining hurdle is buying models and painting them, there are alternatives:
    Flat Paper Proxies
    This a very good idea. I vividly remember a poster on dakka dakka several years ago presenting his undead paper proxy army. They looked of course not as good as actual minis but are still better by a large margin than a grey plastic horde. But there is still one tall hurdle which needs to be overcome by a lot of people which is:

    Pure and utter laziness.

    Piteglio identified important entry barriers in his last post but the more time I have spent with the younger generation talking about the hobby the less I am convinced it is only about the above mentioned issues. When I was young, I spent my time playing video games on a Commodore 64 (C64) but was also active for eight years in a soccer club scoring goals for my team on a regular basis. Besides this there were also other ample opportunities to spent time outside the house, fooling around and getting in all kinds of trouble. When I compare my childhood with that of the majority of the younger generation there is a drastic change. People spent less time in sport clubs and the advance of computer development resulted in an increased percentage of youths who spent their time only with video games. Don´t get me wrong here, I also spent some of my time playing these games but the dosis makes the poison. Couple this with the fact that an increasing number of parents become helicopter adults monitoring each move of their children via "Stasi" surveillance apps and there is no breathing room for the brats to fool around on their own without being bothered by mum & dad.

    I know what you are thinking right now. Christ, another doom & gloom speech but it´s quite the opposite. First we have to identify and recognize that nowadays the vastly improved graphics of said games seduce young folk to spend more time in silico than in natura whereas the C64 was still a lot of fun for gaming but featured not an irresistible lure. What would you prefer? Playing Donkey Kong in a pixel environment or being able to enjoy exciting kinky adventures with a gorgeous Nord amazon barbarian queen wearing the skimpiest sort of armour? I know which I would choose without hesitation.

    Why are video games so popular? They provide the consumer with easy access to joy without demanding the player to invest any kind of effort on his own thus stimulating his/her brain leading in the worst case to an unhealthy addiction. People regress into a hermit kind of state, losing friends in the process just to stare enraptured at the screen for dozens of hours. Our hobby on the other hand demands a lot of effort and dedication before you can reap the rewards. What I am trying to tell you in a nutshell is basically this:

    We have to be better than modern video games.

    How are we accomplish this impossible task? We have to stress that our hobby can be experienced with actual people and not with complete strangers on the interwebz who go by such illustrious names like "czuljkfvgk0815" or even worse. This means being not a jerk to beginners who can´t differentiate between goblins and orcs. The joy of tabletop games for me was and still is that I can present to my fellows a nicely painted gang/army/team. It is the pure joy of accomplishment which still drives me today to paint minis and encourage others to do so too. Playing the game is fun too but you shouldn´t dial up the competitive level to an absurd degree. Also remember that you can´t win everybody over. This fact has been posted here numerous times before but can´t be repeated often enough imo.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Haunted Forest ().

  • Well... I, being a member of these "younger generations", can say that it actually depends on who you ask, I have many friends who enjoy the hobby, one that plays three different armies of 40k and one that is so slow that he's made hanlf an army in a year. Furthermore, when going to the FLGS I find players of all ages: even children: once I found an 8 year old that knew 40k's SEVENTH EDITION rules better than many adults! and immagine my surprise when I found one of the friends of my sisters' frends carefully painting his blood-soaked, deranged berzerkers! All this is to say that it's not true that kids are more interested in videogames than wargames, it's just that, honestly, Their parents are far happier to par them in front of the tv than let them go outside and make different experiences.
  • Miki Panc wrote:

    A bit off topic, but the main barrier of entry that I found is not the amount of miniatures, nor (to a certain extent) the rules: it's the entry cost: I actually have a full OnG army, but only because I bought the backbone of it ,around 100 orcs, from em4 (they are absurdly cheap, like, you won't believe it). I also recently convinced a friend to start playing with the QS (he plays "historically accurate equitania", meaning Equitania with as little magic as possible), only because it had a relatively small amount of models that he could buy cheaply (thanks Fireforge). The fact is that the cost of it all tends to scare newcomers, especially if, like me and my friend, they are in their teens and don't have the disposable income to do it in a decent amont of time! I propose that we create some sort of subcategory in the miniatures library to house the cheapest miniatures we can find (such as em4's orcs and dwarves) and the most convenient packs, like Warlord Games's napoleonic russian infantry, wich, for 32$ gives you: 28 r&f light infantry with handguns, a full command squad and a bsb!
    When i started to play WFB it was expensive!! like nowadays... i don't have the economy to have a big army, so i start slowly, with a initial start box of "lizards vs Bretonia" buyed with a friend.

    is for that reason, that i believe in QS because are a few minis armies, with less rules just for the newbees
    Kislev army thread, We need You!
    New Army book Hetmanate of Ukray