Pinned BLT answers discussion thread

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  • BLT answers discussion thread

    Hey guys long time no see! Santa Noir is coming with BLT questions(and answers) that @KiRaHyuU and I filed in to BLT. All was more or less expectable and although we may disagree with some statements this is what lead blt to its conclusions. You’ll see that most answers are what I told you before. I won’t be able to deliver you statistics sadly but considering where we came from (one of the worst armies since 1.0) I think we all in all can’t complain about the overall power level. There will probably be another price update before there is the full redesign so nothing is set in stone yet.

    @KiRaHyuU showed you the questions he wanted to send in but left me the possibility to edit them. I think I did slightly change something but can’t remember what exactly and lack the time to look it up. Maybe this is something for one of you with more time however you will see the questions below.

    Lastly I want to thank BLT for answering these questions in general. It’s definitely not easy standing by their opinion knowing how much disagreement and hate it can generate.

    Feel free to discuss and give feedback but remember to stay as nice and calm as possible.

    This leaves me with nothing to say but

    MAKE DREAD ELVES GREAT AGAIN!

    Display Spoiler


    Please explain why the cost of the Midnight Cloak increased, despite the new restrictions on Towering Presence models; especially in the context of the item not improving and that mounts ie Manticore and Dragon saw a price drop


    The BLT consider this to be one of the best artifacts in the game, still very usefull with things like Raptor Chariot, Pegasus or just simple Horse. Due to this, the midnight cloak has proven difficult to price to a point where it is a good choice without being overwhelmingly taken, but the 5 point increase was a step in the right direction for this.


    Why is the Cloak pricing not solely based on its own merits especially as savvy players are noticing the pricing in Mounts are fluctuating due to the changes? Does that not signal to players they are overpaying for Mounts if they don't purchase the Cloak?


    The intent is that the cloak not be seen as auto-include to run any of these mounts. There should be a variety of options for competitive list building, including characters with mounts.No item is ever priced in a vacuum, costs are based on it's merits and how it interacts in best usage within a game



    why is TG pricing promoting MSU while blades pricing isn't?


    TG are better in bigger units with their rules, while Blades are decent in MSU units.The difference between frenzy and bodyguard is as follows, Frenzy is better in MSU (more units to provide support in case of a disc failure . failures effect less points). Bodyguard is better in line formation (more wounds before stubborn is lost, ranks are not needed).

    why is olaron 70 points for every character? A captain costs 225 with olaron which is only 15 points less than a prince with a way better statline!

    Regardless of the selection for general, olaron gives +1 discipline. It also grants +1 discipline to any unit containing an olaron character (as the highest discipline in the unit is used for tests outside of the general's commanding presence).That benefit is roughly equal regardless of which character is imbued with it.A captain with the crown of autocracy costs the same, and had to spend points from his enchanted item allowance to become so



    why is the Pegasus priced as high while the HBE eagle with more movement is as cheap. Is there an inherent price for the potential of the cloak of twilight combo?


    The interaction of these mounts with potential characters and equipment, magic paths, army playstyles, and other units in the army is widely different between dread elves and highborn elves.

    Increase in pts for the Hydra?
    In the DE army, it was overused compared to the other monsters when looking at data with 2 oe 3x being seen. Thus the increase was done to make the unit less points efficient.




    Feel free to discuss and give loads of feedback!
  • Said this in the other thread:

    I'm really annoyed with the last two answers, the Pegasus question just sounds like ...."BECAUSE REASONS" and doesn't explain the problem in any detail. I suspect the actual reasoning is the Cloak, Witchcraft and Yema potential so yeah its a tax then, fine but the dismissive way this question was answered wasn't ideal. At least they knocked points off Raptors and Horses to be fair.

    The Hydra answer is annoying because instead of trying to ascertain why the Hydra is taken so much in whatever data they're looking at (Contradicts the underused Units thread massively) they just whack point points on it, its punitive. Our monsters are still too easy to kill with ranged/magic with their R5 and 5HP, I won't take a Hydra at all at that price.

    The answer to Olaron pricing is also perplexing. The benefits aren't the same, clearly. Dread Princes bestow Minimised Discipline at Dis 10 to their Units, how is that the same utility as what a captain brings?

    Still I agree @noir we're in a way better place than 1.3.
  • Display Spoiler

    "why is TG pricing promoting MSU while blades pricing isn't?

    TG are better in bigger units with their rules, while Blades are decent in MSU units.The difference between frenzy and bodyguard is as follows, Frenzy is better in MSU (more units to provide support in case of a disc failure . failures effect less points). Bodyguard is better in line formation (more wounds before stubborn is lost, ranks are not needed)."


    I disagree about the Frenzy rule. The reasonning seems right at first glance, but it cannot be taken out off vacuum.
    Yes - its way worse when your horde fails a frenzy test and runs out off position for no gain, but the same horde holds points and steadfest longer. With small units , which cannot flee , its as painfull as its offer the oponent easy overrun tragets ,also they give points to the oponent like candy or block your other bigger elements, which might be as bad as failing with a horde.

    The unit would have to priced accordingly to be worth taking. I love their stat line, but cannot justify the risk and points needed to be invested in. I see them flufwise as a cannon fodder with extreme damage potential on unarmoured targets. With mediocre speed they just cannot get anywhere near intended targets.

    About Olaron and Crown of autocracy. I want only to state that Crown is one off the items I wouldlike to see deleted from the Rule book (with Rending banner ).

    Display Spoiler


    why is olaron 70 points for every character? A captain costs 225 with olaron which is only 15 points less than a prince with a way better statline!
    "Regardless of the selection for general,
    olaron gives +1 discipline. It also grants +1 discipline to any unit
    containing an olaron character (as the highest discipline in the unit is
    used for tests outside of the general's commanding presence).That benefit is roughly equal regardless of which character is imbued with it.A captain with the crown of autocracy costs the same, and had to spend points from his enchanted item allowance to become so"


    This argument about going over ponts allowance would hold if those points would not take the character allowance points in the list. how many times w've seen a DE list with Crown in it??
    I've never seen one.
    Before the fast hotfix, despite looking expensive I've considered this cult for my Altar BSB After I dont see even any use for it.


    Display Spoiler

    "why is the Pegasus
    priced as high while the HBE eagle with more movement is as cheap. Is
    there an inherent price for the potential of the cloak of twilight
    combo?
    The interaction of these mounts with potential characters and equipment, magic paths, army playstyles, and other units in the army is widely different between dread elves and highborn elves"


    As this argument is brough up I can think of only one item which might make HBE jealous and is the Midnight cloack, thats why we ge below to the Cloack Argument.

    Display Spoiler

    "Please explain why the cost of the Midnight Cloak increased, despite the new restrictions on Towering Presence models; especially in the context of the item not improving and that mounts ie Manticore and Dragon saw a price drop

    The BLT consider this to be one of the best artifacts in the game, still very usefull with things like Raptor Chariot, Pegasus or just simple Horse. Due to this, the midnight cloak
    has proven difficult to price to a point where it is a good choice
    without being overwhelmingly taken, but the 5 point increase was a step
    in the right direction for this."


    If BLT is seeing this as one off the best artifacts please increase its price making it a Lord character only item. By the same time this hopefully would drop the points of our mounts. This would open more options. Another option would be to split this item into 2 separate ones. One offering 3+ aegis from Rnaged and another granting D3 wounds (maybe also enchancing it back to first round of combat as its our Army wide Strenght - isnt it?)

    Display Spoiler

    "Why is the Cloak pricing not solely based on its own merits especially as savvy players are noticing the pricing in Mounts are fluctuating due to the changes? Does that not signal to players they are overpaying for Mounts if they don't purchase the Cloak?

    The intent is that the cloak not be seen as auto-include to run any of these mounts. There should be a variety of options for competitive list building, including characters with mounts.No item is ever priced in a vacuum, costs are based on it's merits and how it interacts in best usage within a game"

    As written above.

    Display Spoiler

    "Increase in pts for the Hydra?
    In the DE
    army, it was overused compared to the other monsters when looking at
    data with 2 oe 3x being seen. Thus the increase was done to make the
    unit less points efficient"


    I can see the argument. But was this
    based on lists Singles of Team tournaments?
    Better would be to make a hard cap on monster if BLT doesent want to seem so many of them in multiples. This would alow to price them accordingly.
  • Ok, lets have some fun :)

    noir wrote:

    Please explain why the cost of the Midnight Cloak increased, despite the new restrictions on Towering Presence models; especially in the context of the item not improving and that mounts ie Manticore and Dragon saw a price drop


    The BLT consider this to be one of the best artifacts in the game, still very usefull with things like Raptor Chariot, Pegasus or just simple Horse. Due to this, the midnight cloak has proven difficult to price to a point where it is a good choice without being overwhelmingly taken, but the 5 point increase was a step in the right direction for this.
    Translation: Waaaaaa, my dwarf cannons can't kill the manticore! and I don't want a raptor cowboy having extra gear to kill my warmachines! waaaa!

    noir wrote:

    Why is the Cloak pricing not solely based on its own merits especially as savvy players are noticing the pricing in Mounts are fluctuating due to the changes? Does that not signal to players they are overpaying for Mounts if they don't purchase the Cloak?


    The intent is that the cloak not be seen as auto-include to run any of these mounts. There should be a variety of options for competitive list building, including characters with mounts.No item is ever priced in a vacuum, costs are based on it's merits and how it interacts in best usage within a game
    This one actually kinda bugs me because I do not like the pricing of ITEMS so that they are auto-includes. I mentioned this in the thread about "putting all magic items in one book".
    It effectively just leads to scrapping the magic item section because we might as well just add these items into the specific unit entry they are priced for. ...like in age of sigmar - your characters basically get 1-2 options for wargear.

    noir wrote:

    why is TG pricing promoting MSU while blades pricing isn't?


    TG are better in bigger units with their rules, while Blades are decent in MSU units.The difference between frenzy and bodyguard is as follows, Frenzy is better in MSU (more units to provide support in case of a disc failure . failures effect less points). Bodyguard is better in line formation (more wounds before stubborn is lost, ranks are not needed).
    Translation: waaaa, blades don't have armour so I want my dwarf armour piercing weapons to count for something instead of my opponent smirking and laughing when I say "AP2" and he says "they don't have armour", so lets make the blades cost more and tell people it's because of frenzy. waaaa!


    noir wrote:

    why is olaron 70 points for every character? A captain costs 225 with olaron which is only 15 points less than a prince with a way better statline!

    Regardless of the selection for general, olaron gives +1 discipline. It also grants +1 discipline to any unit containing an olaron character (as the highest discipline in the unit is used for tests outside of the general's commanding presence).That benefit is roughly equal regardless of which character is imbued with it.A captain with the crown of autocracy costs the same, and had to spend points from his enchanted item allowance to become so
    +1 discipline, -1 discipline ...meh.
    .....I still fail my panic checks on box cars and roll snake eyes for flee distance.


    noir wrote:

    why is the Pegasus priced as high while the HBE eagle with more movement is as cheap. Is there an inherent price for the potential of the cloak of twilight combo?


    The interaction of these mounts with potential characters and equipment, magic paths, army playstyles, and other units in the army is widely different between dread elves and highborn elves.
    Translation: ....don't worry about highelves, they're trying to put lipstick on a pig over there.


    noir wrote:

    Increase in pts for the Hydra?
    In the DE army, it was overused compared to the other monsters when looking at data with 2 oe 3x being seen. Thus the increase was done to make the unit less points efficient.
    Translation: Waaaa! I'm tired of seeing hydras all over the place and I don't want to put flaming attacks on my dwarf cannon! Waaa!

    ----------------------------

    always fun to rant on the dwarfs.
  • If BLT wanted to encourage use of other items on mounted characters, maybe they should allow or create combinations that are actually good.

    An elf character has to spend most if not all of his allowance on protective gear because he’s low toughness, wounds, and innately low AS. This is worse for a Captain who only has 100 points to spare. Additionally, you need that protection because Elf armies typically run light on characters, as they are so expensive due to “reasons”, so that character is probably also the BSB or General, so he has a great big target on his head.

    On top of that, Elf characters also have innately low offensive capabilities too: low attacks, strength, and AP.

    What that means is an Elf character is looking for both offensive AND defensive items. Unfortunately, successive nerfs to BRB protective items, due to the plethora of cowboy characters with innate statlines which can abuse them, has put all the decent options almost out of reach. A Captain ether invests in a decent save, maybe with rerolls or a 5++, and is stuck with mundane 3a S6/s5 and a real danger of whiffing, or opts for slightly better offence but compromises defence. It’s a crap choice.

    Enter the Cloak, which gives everything that Elf characters are looking for.The d3 wounds combos with a lance or GW to offset the captains crappy stats, and allows princes to compete with some of the really powerful characters out there.

    If the Cloak was completely nerfed into the ground, or removed entirely, you wouldn’t see Elf cowboys with different gear as the BLT seems to expect, you simply wouldn’t see them at all.

    The DE book would seem to be a good place to support alternative mounted builds, but then we are spending design space on offsetting a weakness with the BRB, any anything which was “too good” would only get nerfed and/or removed for being auto include (when in fact it’s just doing its job).

    TLDR I disagree strongly with the BLT philosophy here. It would have been useful if they actually gave some examples of equally worthwhile builds besides Cloak.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • Following the logic of the answer on the Hydra, then if there is something good that everyone likes to use,must we increase the value so that they stop using it?It would not be better to keep it and present other good options so that you can ... let's say ... "choose"?Otherwise, what is the use of improving things if, once they are used, they will be removed?
    DARK DWARF
    9TH AGE Community
    Santiago, CHILE
  • Kayo wrote:

    Following the logic of the answer on the Hydra, then if there is something good that everyone likes to use,must we increase the value so that they stop using it?It would not be better to keep it and present other good options so that you can ... let's say ... "choose"?Otherwise, what is the use of improving things if, once they are used, they will be removed?
    Eventually we will all be using 16 armies with everything exactly the same but names.
  • @Clockwork only giving you the shout out because I think normally your quite reasonable about things and this time I think you’ve jumped the shark....

    Firstly the DE statline has never changed...so this we have poor offensive stats, that’s just how it’s been since day one. However I would caveat that we have always had a high OS and high Init so I wouldn’t ever really go so far as to say we have bad offensive stats...striking first is always better than having a lot of strength and attacks but not getting to strike....

    Secondly, yeah yes a DE character is innately poor defensively, that’s the same with all elven races...cause we’re Elves...be it popular culture or wargaming an Elf’s best defence is a good offense or simply not being in combat in the first place....Elves have never been all about that impenetrable Armour :)

    And yeah that’s what differentiates us from different armies...sure SA have innately better defensive stats so they don’t have to invest more into defence and can spend more on offensive...that’s their racial trait - it’s what makes them Saurians and us Elves...
  • @KiRaHyuU Yeah Elf character stat line (and price) remains a legacy issue; however, it’s one that’s consistently ignored while BLT nerf hammer items instead.

    High OS and Ag are fine if you can do the damage to take advantage of it. I wouldn’t say it was almost better though. Who cares about OS/Ag10 if the model is only S3, for example, or has no save so gets shot off before getting into combat.

    Sure Elves are distinguished from other races by their stat line. My point was to explain why the Cloak is such a popular item on mounted characters, and why you don’t see many other builds: 1) Elf characters need offence and defence 2) other builds don’t offer this as BLT has nerfed them due to characters which can abuse them, shafting Elves in the process, 3) Elf characters are so expensive that you won’t see more than the bare minimum, which usually translates into only one character per army in the cowboy role, so no opportunity for build variation (because of course you take the best/only). If BLT want DE characters to consider other options besides the Cloak, then where are they?

    I’ll say again, without Cloak what items should I be taking on my BSB Captain? If he takes the expensive BRB items (Death Chester, Destiny’s Call, Essence), then he’s stuck with a lance or GW. If you skimp on defence then you’re risking your 350+ point model.
    #freekillerinstinct
  • KiRaHyuU wrote:

    be it popular culture or wargaming an Elf’s best defence is a good offense or simply not being in combat in the first place....Elves have never been all about that impenetrable Armour :)
    Elves are usually good at dodging attacks. In T9A, we have relatively high DS but almost everyone is hitting us on 4s anyway.

    I think I get it - according to ASAW, we should be good at offense and crappy at defense so it is natural to expect this from our characters as well. I just wonder whether such a character can actually work. A character carries a lot of points on mere 3 wounds. If those wounds are not reasonably protected he is very dangerous to play.
  • Marchosias wrote:

    KiRaHyuU wrote:

    be it popular culture or wargaming an Elf’s best defence is a good offense or simply not being in combat in the first place....Elves have never been all about that impenetrable Armour :)
    Elves are usually good at dodging attacks. In T9A, we have relatively high DS but almost everyone is hitting us on 4s anyway.
    I think I get it - according to ASAW, we should be good at offense and crappy at defense so it is natural to expect this from our characters as well. I just wonder whether such a character can actually work. A character carries a lot of points on mere 3 wounds. If those wounds are not reasonably protected he is very dangerous to play.
    Absolutely, the new to hit table is insane, getting 5+ to hit is really difficult now. Gobbos now hit dancers and execs on 4s, madness. So overall elves are even less resilient.
  • I have read through all this and am legitimately failing to see an issue with our characters.

    I really believe you are all choosing the wrong bone to pick.

    Blades: Way too expensive, way too fragile. Frenzy is a handicap that is not offset by the unit's built in +1 attack. At best, they chew through low armoured monsters chaff... They are ALWAYS a free overrun target for anything with a 4+ or better. Pair them against their equivalent units in other lists (flagellants etc) and they fail constantly, mainly due to their disgustingly high points cost. Take them out of core if core tax is the problem.

    I am an avid supporter and defender of the team behind T9A and I thoroughly appreciate the work that is put in voluntarily. However, the last two responses are so weak. Please could we have some legitimate responses to those questions?
    Australian #1 DE Aug '17 - Aug '18


    T9A - Nanatoo
    Wargamer.au - Naboo
  • Also, there is no situation I would ever take Olaron... This is a common, running trend amongst our community as well. It isn't taken ever and won't be taken. The only synergy with the secondary part of the rule is with a unit that is stubborn with the character in it anyway. What a complete waste of 70 points.
    Australian #1 DE Aug '17 - Aug '18


    T9A - Nanatoo
    Wargamer.au - Naboo
  • Nanatoo wrote:

    Also, there is no situation I would ever take Olaron... This is a common, running trend amongst our community as well. It isn't taken ever and won't be taken. The only synergy with the secondary part of the rule is with a unit that is stubborn with the character in it anyway. What a complete waste of 70 points.
    Yeah I know.... but in the end though we all agree that the reasoning behind it is wrong and feels off this is what lead BLT to this decision :D