The road to 205 - Chapters of the Week: 13 (community)

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  • A big fur sure.

    Let's start by the 13.B Melee Phase Sequence. I think it is not described/organised well.

    1 Start of the Melee Phase. Apply any No Longer Engaged.
    => no other sequence have a 1) start + somthing, we can gain consistency by move the "no longer..." in a 2)
    And let's be enthusiastic, merge the "no longer..." with the chapter A "engaged...", so the sequence will be in first, which is better too.

    The idea would look like this (in blue the most important changes) :


    13.A Melee Phase Sequence
    Each Melee Phase is divided into the following steps.

    1 Start of the Melee Phase.
    2 Check combat and unit No Longer Engaged. Apply any No Longer Engaged.
    3 The Active Player chooses a combat to fight that has not already been fought during this Melee Phase. Then fight a Round of Combat using the Round of Combat sequence.
    4 Repeat step 3.
    5 Once all units that were Engaged in Combat at the start of the phase have fought, the Melee Phase ends.

    13.B. Combat
    A combat is defined as a group of opposing units, which are all connected through base contact. Normally, this would
    be two units pitted against one another, but it could also be several units against a single enemy unit or a long chain
    of units from both sides. Complete all actions in the Round of Combat Sequence of all units involved in the chosen
    combat before moving on to the next combat.

    13.B.1 Engaged in Combat
    Units are considered Engaged in Combat if one or more models in the unit is in base contact with an enemy unit. If a unit is Engaged in Combat, all models in the unit are also Engaged in Combat. Units that are Engaged in Combat cannot move unless specifically stated (such as during Combat Reforms or when Breaking).

    13.B.2 First Round of Combat
    Certain rules only apply to the first Round of Combat. A unit’s first Round of Combat is:
    - the Round of Combat after it successfully charges an enemy unit.
    - the Round of Combat after it is successfully charged by an enemy unit if previously unengaged.

    13.B.3 No Longer Engaged
    A unit follows the rules described in 13.G.3 “No More Foes ”, page 55, if it was Engaged in Combat previously, but had all of its opponents moved or removed between the previous Movement Phase and this Melee Phase (and base contact could not be maintained through nudging, following the instructions under 13.D.f “Dropping out of Combat”, page 53). That unit may do a Post-Combat Pivot or Post-Combat Reform (or Overrun if it just charged) before any combats are fought. This cannot be done if the unit has moved since the opposing units were removed (e.g. with a Magical Move).

    13.D

    step 6 : 3. Move to the next Initative Step.
    => it precise not what to do, just move. I'll write something like "restart this 3 steps for each next Initiative step" (it's not really a good rewording, but the idea is clearer)

    step 9 : Restrain or Pursue?

    => weird to see a question here, "Choose Restrain or Pursue" seems more in the mold


    13.D.a


    Agility above 10 is resolved at Agility 10, and Agility below 0 is resolved at Agility 0.
    => precision no longer usefull as agi is already restricted in characteristic modifiers


    => I don't like this part (13.D.a) seems not organised well. I don't see how to improve now, maybe I'll come back later.


    13.D.e


    If one or more hits are scored, the player may then follow the procedure described under 14 “Attacks”, page 62.
    => This sentence only appears at the end of a paragraph which start by "exemple", it really don't seems to be part of the normal sequence after a hit...


    Unless specified otherwise, a to-hit modifier applies to both Shooting and Close Combat to-hit rolls.
    => Why ?
    Why THIS is HERE ?

    And seriously, it's a point I wanted to address in the next chapter, but I'll start now.
    1) the chapter 14) Attack is too late in the book, for me its place is in the chapter 5 of just after (so, after characteristics, and before the game sequence = it's an important mechanism which is used in all game (don't see how to play without) and phase are a little abstract if you don't jump to chapter 14 the first time you see a "hit")
    2) the chapter 14 lack of a part describing "hits" in general, even if the information is totally useless after reading it once. Just for presenting the general attack sequence : hit/wound/save which a don't see complete anywhere in the book. There is the wound/save part in the chapter 14, but hit are only here as "distributed" and not "scored". And the sentence above fit well in part for "hits in general", not in a chapter dedicated on CC.


    13.H

    (each Pursuing unit may choose any eligible enemy unit to Pursue)
    => who can pursue is well described, but who is eligible to be pursue is not well. So can I pursue an unit that wasn't in contact with ? I think we need a paragraph too. :D

    13.H.1

    Move called Overrun (instead of a Post-Combat Pivot)
    => "Move called Overrun (instead of a Post-Combat Pivot or Reform) " (or in all terms) unless I maybe try to do overrun and refrom

    13.H.a

    Remove that unit from the game with no saves of any kind allowed.
    => as there is no wound inflicted, I don't see why I would try to save anything with armor/aegis/fortitude. And I don't know other form that would apply here against ... hum... effect that removing unit. You may remove the blue part.

    13.H.c
    1)

    the direction the Pursued unit would have had, had it not been destroyed.
    => some deficient english hide here

    => there is 4 situations, in the 2 last there is "(i.e. ignore steps 2 and 3)" and "proceed to step 2" there is no such precision, even if it's hard to go forward if outside of the table or after making a charge. It's a very small detail, but in a list, it's feels weird to have precision only half the time, feeling something missing in the first 2 when reading the lasts.


    2) 2.3) Friendly Unit, Impassable Terrain, or No Obstacle


    => it's already told before, but I'll add in the title or the text a reminder about the pursued unit which is considered an impassible terrain


    13.H.d


    using the rules for arriving Ambushers, with the following exceptions
    => may add a precision about what is ambusher, as it's not already described, so "(see special rules)" is welcome


    13.H.e and f


    => is there any order of who pivot or reform first ? and if we have to pivot before reform or we can choose ?


    It can be merge too, something like :



    13.H.e Post-Combat Pivot and Reform

    After the Pursuing and Fleeing units have been moved, the now unengaged unit can perform one of those move (Active Player chooses which player will move first. Each player chooses the order of their own move) :

    1) Post-Combat Pivot
    The unit may Pivot around its Centre and may reorganise models with the Front Rank rule (they must still be in legal positions).

    2) Post-Combat Reform
    The unit may perform a Reform manoeuvre. If this is done, the unit doesn’t count as Scoring for claiming Secondary Objectives during this Player Turn, and the unit may not Declare any Charges in the following Player Turn.

    => and finally for today it's more a question about the intended vision of thoses pivots/reform :
    there is no more "free" move in order to respect the unit spacing at the end of a combat, so for exemple if I charge with 3 unit in the face of an other and no of thoses 3 overrun/pursue, they can't pivot/reform cause there will never be the 1" between them after their move (maybe I need a diagram to be clear, feel free to move the answer elsewhere)
    Armies : DE, UD - Co-organise : Nain Gros-Gnon
  • Minidudul wrote:

    the direction the Pursued unit would have had, had it not been destroyed.
    => some deficient english hide here
    No that's legit (in french it would be "la direction que l'unité poursuivie aurait eue, n'eut-elle pas été détruite")

    Some suggestions to build up on the very good post above:

    Melee Phase Sequence wrote:

    2 Check and resolve any situation with units No Longer Engaged.

    3 The Active Player chooses a combat to fight that has not already been fought during this Melee Phase. Players then fight a Round of this combat following the Round of Combat sequence.


    No longer engaged wrote:


    13.B.3 No Longer Engaged

    Sometimes, a unit that was previously Engaged in Combat had all of its opponents moved or removed between the previous Movement Phase and this Melee Phase (and even nudging could not maintain base contact, following 13.D.f “Dropping out of Combat”, page 53). Such unit follows the rules described in 13.G.3 “No More Foes ”, page 55. If the unit has not moved since the opposing units were removed (e.g. with a Magical Move), it may do a Post-Combat Pivot or Post-Combat Reform (or Overrun if it just charged) before any combats are fought.


    Minidudul wrote:

    And seriously, it's a point I wanted to address in the next chapter, but I'll start now.
    1) the chapter 14) Attack is too late in the book, for me its place is in the chapter 5 of just after (so, after characteristics, and before the game sequence = it's an important mechanism which is used in all game (don't see how to play without) and phase are a little abstract if you don't jump to chapter 14 the first time you see a "hit")
    2) the chapter 14 lack of a part describing "hits" in general, even if the information is totally useless after reading it once. Just for presenting the general attack sequence : hit/wound/save which a don't see complete anywhere in the book. There is the wound/save part in the chapter 14, but hit are only here as "distributed" and not "scored". And the sentence above fit well in part for "hits in general", not in a chapter dedicated on CC.
    Agreed !
  • Thanks for the feedback!

    Minidudul wrote:

    Let's start by the 13.B Melee Phase Sequence. I think it is not described/organised well.
    1 Start of the Melee Phase. Apply any No Longer Engaged.
    => no other sequence have a 1) start + somthing, we can gain consistency by move the "no longer..." in a 2)
    And let's be enthusiastic, merge the "no longer..." with the chapter A "engaged...", so the sequence will be in first, which is better too.

    The idea would look like this (in blue the most important changes) :
    (...)
    -> I like the new order, we'll do that ;) . And we already had planned on moving the sequence to the very beginning of the chapter too.

    => I don't like this part (13.D.a) seems not organised well. I don't see how to improve now, maybe I'll come back later.
    -> Yeah, we already got similar feedback. The subsection will be restructured. Currently we're looking at something like this:

    <
    13.D.a Initiative Order
    Melee Attacks are performed in Rounds of Combat. These occur during the Melee Phase. All Melee Attacks have a specific Agility value which that corresponds to the Agility of their model part, unless explicitly specified otherwise (such as Impact Hits which are performed at Initiative Step 10, or Crush Attacks at Initiative Step 0). add hyperlinks for impact hits and crush attacks
    Each Round of Combat is fought in a strict striking order, decided at the beginning of the round. The order starts with all attacks that have Agility 10 and then works downwards from the highest to the lowest Agility. This process is referred to as Initiative Order. The Initiative Order in a combat is determined immediately before any attacks are made. Take into account all modifiers that affect the Agility of attacks that may be performed in this Round of Combat to sort these attacks in Initiative Steps. Once the Initiative Order has been determined for a Round of Combat, it cannot be changed by effects that alter the Agility of attacks during that Round of Combat. The order starts at Initiative Step 10 with all attacks with Agility 10, and is resolved downwards to Initiative Step 0 with all attacks with Agility 0.
    Once the Initiative Order has been established, At
    each Initiative Step, all attacks from this step that meet the necessary requirements (see 13.D.c “Which Models can Attack”, page 50) strike simultaneously.
    >
    Better ;) ?

    And seriously, it's a point I wanted to address in the next chapter, but I'll start now.
    1) the chapter 14) Attack is too late in the book, for me its place is in the chapter 5 of just after (so, after characteristics, and before the game sequence = it's an important mechanism which is used in all game (don't see how to play without) and phase are a little abstract if you don't jump to chapter 14 the first time you see a "hit")
    2) the chapter 14 lack of a part describing "hits" in general, even if the information is totally useless after reading it once. Just for presenting the general attack sequence : hit/wound/save which a don't see complete anywhere in the book. There is the wound/save part in the chapter 14, but hit are only here as "distributed" and not "scored". And the sentence above fit well in part for "hits in general", not in a chapter dedicated on CC.
    -> I know what you mean. We'll discuss this.

    13.H
    (each Pursuing unit may choose any eligible enemy unit to Pursue)
    => who can pursue is well described, but who is eligible to be pursue is not well. So can I pursue an unit that wasn't in contact with ? I think we need a paragraph too. :D
    -> That's explained a couple of lines later:
    "To be able to Pursue a broken enemy, the unit cannot be Engaged with any non-broken enemy units and must be in base contact with the broken unit."
    So an enemy unit eligible if it broke and was in base contact with the pursuing unit.


    13.H.a
    Remove that unit from the game with no saves of any kind allowed.
    => as there is no wound inflicted, I don't see why I would try to save anything with armor/aegis/fortitude. And I don't know other form that would apply here against ... hum... effect that removing unit. You may remove the blue part.
    -> Yes, the rules are clear, but I think it can't hurt to keep it as a clarification (especially for players who aren't familiar with the rules yet). As such it could be put in brackets.

    13.H.e and f
    => is there any order of who pivot or reform first ? and if we have to pivot before reform or we can choose ?
    -> there is no fixed order for the two types of moves. Since they happen at the same time, they follow the rules for Simultaneous Effects.
    But the merger you proposed (including a clarification regarding the timing) sounds interesting, we'll look into that.


    => and finally for today it's more a question about the intended vision of thoses pivots/reform :
    there is no more "free" move in order to respect the unit spacing at the end of a combat, so for exemple if I charge with 3 unit in the face of an other and no of thoses 3 overrun/pursue, they can't pivot/reform cause there will never be the 1" between them after their move (maybe I need a diagram to be clear, feel free to move the answer elsewhere)
    -> These friendly units ignore the unit spacing rule during the charge move, so they may end up within 1" of one another in that situation (possibly even in base contact with each other).
    Once you are within 1" of another unit, you're not forced to leave that space, so unless you don't you can remain within 1" of the other unit(s). So pivoting/reforming works fine as long as you don't have overlapping unit boundaries.