Why is this game still so centered around the General/BsB?

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  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    60 goblins costs 900 points and actually wins combat on kills against 600 point units of WDG Warriors?
    60 goblins with spears as is already beat 600 points of warriors, totally offtopic I know but hey!

    Pitting 24 Warriors (w/Spiked Shields = roughly 600 pts) vs. 60 Common Goblins (w/Spears, LA/Sh = 420 points)...

    Assume 6 wide vs. 5 wide for test #1, assume Horde vs. Horde for test #2.

    Test #1

    The Warriors swing first. Hit on 3's, wound on 3's, save on 6's. 12 hits, 8 wounds, ~7 kills. Goblins swing back. Hit on 5's, wound on 5's, save on 4's if the Goblins charge, 5's if the Warriors charge. 5 hits, ~2 wounds, ~1 past saves. Warriors maybe get an extra kill off the Spiked Shield.

    The Goblins might grind this, but they're losing combat by about 4 or 5 until they manage to grind their enemies down.


    Test #2

    Warriors get more attacks this time (32), so ~21 hits, 14 wounds, ~12 kills. Goblins get 32 attacks as well... ~11 hits, ~4 wounds, ~2 of them get saved (and Spiked Shield probably turns that into an extra kill). Goblins get out-killed about by about 10-11 wounds.

    The Goblins might grind this, but they're losing combat even more steeply.



    If you just magically abolish Steadfast (alone), those Gobbos kill between 1 and 3 Warriors and then get erased.



    As is, the balance might not be perfect, but it sure ain't so heinously skewed in favour of the Gobbos that wielding that kind of nerf chainsaw is justified.


    Edit: Forest Goblins would do better, but cost another 120 more points and at this point are barely any cheaper than the WDG unit.
  • yhandros wrote:

    Well if you send your elite unit (I understand here high damage output, but low wound count) alone against the front of a slow 60 man unit (let say goblins)... your're doing something wrong.
    I wouldnt personally if I could avoid it but you sometimes have to fight things you dont want to.

    You dont get to really do much ganging up either when you're WDG against OnG as OnG will have double the number of units with triple the number of bodies in each unit.

    Anyways, I've got a good record against OnG and I'm not railing against them or claiming OP'ness or anything, just got an opening to get a jab in ;)


    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    As is, the balance might not be perfect, but it sure ain't so heinously skewed in favour of the Gobbos that wielding that kind of nerf chainsaw is justified.
    I dont want to change anything FWIW. I'm cool with the situation as is. Poison gobbos with greentide and spears is scary though
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    but you sometimes have to fight things you dont want to.
    No, you haven't. If I know I cannot break a 60 man peasant unit with my iron orcs and that in the end I lose the combat I don't send them against the peasants in the first place. I try to outdeploy my oppontent, try to chaff him or whatever. But I don't say the problem is the peasants get the Ld from their general. The problem is a bad unit-unit match.
    Have you seen the yellow sign?
  • yhandros wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    but you sometimes have to fight things you dont want to.
    No, you haven't. If I know I cannot break a 60 man peasant unit with my iron orcs and that in the end I lose the combat I don't send them against the peasants in the first place. I try to outdeploy my oppontent, try to chaff him or whatever. But I don't say the problem is the peasants get the Ld from their general. The problem is a bad unit-unit match.
    I understand the idea of getting good matchups for your units, I also said I wasnt claiming any kind of OP'ness for goblins. Sometimes your opponent gets the matchup they want though, right? or does that never happen?

    anyway this is all offtopic so I'm happy to consider you the argument "winner" and move on
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Cam wrote:

    yhandros wrote:

    That would be a disaster for O&G or BH.
    Because 360pts of Goblins who just lost 15 out of 60 of them should of course re-roll on a 9 for leadership and hold up an elite unit.
    If they can't do that, they're not even worth 360 points. Units that break or die in a single round and are basically chaff are worth maybe 120 points at the extreme upper end.

    So. Goblins down to 2 points per model sound fun to you?



    360 points of chaff can hold up an elite unit for an entire game if you take it in the form of four cheap suicide guys (e.g. four units of Great Bats). Honestly, they can probably hold up TWO elite units for the entire game if you take them in the form of cheap suicide guys.



    No, having 60 gobbos basically be an immovable infinitely courageous blob isn't perfect. That doesn't mean removing the bonuses of Steadfast, Hold Your Ground and/or Rally Around The Flag would automatically be an improvement; "something needs to be done, this is something, therefore this needs to be done!" is terrible logic.



    Basically, answer this question: What should Goblin Spearmen do that's actually useful on the table top? What would you feel good about losing to them doing?

    Would you be happier if they held because they had their DPS upped so much that 60 goblins costs 900 points and actually wins combat on kills against 600 point units of WDG Warriors?

    Would you be happier if they cost 40 points per unit of 20 and your opponents just shoved so many in front of your elite troops that your 1500 point semi-death star only managed to score 200 VP over the course of a match?

    Would you be happier if they were Ambushing scoring troops that spend the entire game hiding and running around like cowards so they stay on the table and hand the OnG player the objectives?


    Yes, yes, you want to be able to wipe them off the bottom of your boot if your opponent fields them and you get to charge them. Fantastic. What should they be good at?

    If ignore all the irrelevant stuff you spouted (ie the majority). All I suggested would mean that they have a re-rollable 7 instead of re-rollable 9. Do you think that is completely unreasonable?
  • DJWoodelf wrote:

    well this in fact is "unstable for all" so would ruin the flair of undeads and demons.
    That is only true if all the flair of Undeads and Demons comes from the crumbling part of the unstable rule.

    If that is so, the designers of the undead and demon armies completely failed to implement flair into those armies. I know what you meant, but to me it looks like a "it's always been this way"-argument.

    On the topic of Goblins being Dis 9 + Rerollable:
    As I said before: This is a flaw in the general mechanic of overwriting the unit stats. If your general with Dis 9 is around, the Dis value of all troops in your bubble doesn't matter anymore. Generally I think we should aim to make the base stats of units matter. If the general granted a bonus to modify the base value, the Goblin's low Dis would actually matter. They still might hold if they are near general and BSB, but they only get to higher Discipline values, if a character is actually joined to the unit.

    Hit/miss mechanic of panic/break tests:
    Maybe we could change that a little. Instead of stand/flee and then roll, the unit flees by the amount the check failed. For rallying: It automatically reduces the flee distance by X inches. If the distance is zero, you auto-rally. If you pass discipline check you auto-rally as well. If necessary players can be given the option: Do this "minimal flee" or go into blind panic and roll the distance like before. (This idea wouldn't really work with Terror, so the idea is obviously not fleshed out, but I just wanted to present it). It could be a middle ground between extra tokens/states and a devastating "flee, roll high, panic others and never rally" situation.
    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/
  • yhandros wrote:

    It would be from a 97% pass chance to a 83% pass chance...It's not that big of a difference
    BUT... you'll be getting the same issues 83% of the time instead of 97% of the time.

    I don't think it's a great idea to rework the whole thing, adjust points and address balance issues only for that 14%.
    Yeah but you wouldn't want to make goblins useless, they'd still be an effective cheap tarpit.

    They just wouldn't have a re-rollable 9 ld.
  • flammy` wrote:

    Are goblins really that good? As a VC player I don't think 60 skeletons would last very long against warriors probably 3 or 4 combat phases and they cost almost double the cost of goblins.
    Goblins are a lot better than scellies in the fact that they don't crumble, but a lot worse in the fact that they don't crumble :P
    Basicly - If you only win by about 10 and the tarpit has steadfast the goblins are better, since they only lost X and still stand, while Scellies would lose X + crumble(7 usually). On the other hand, in a similar situation when the unit would lose steadfast(eg cos of a flank charge), the scellies would just crumble, while the goblins would run.
  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    ...


    If you just magically abolish Steadfast (alone), those Gobbos kill between 1 and 3 Warriors and then get erased.



    ...
    that's exactly why we cant solve any of the discussed issues by changing or removing one rule (e.g. steadfast).
    you have to take all relevant rules into consideration.

    that's why my proposal would not only add something new (=status between fine and flee)....it would also change a lot of other rules (general, BSB, steadfast, stubborn, frenzy, fear, terror....basically all rules that have to do with discipline tests and discipline modifiers). some special rules would even work simpler.

    there are so many cause-effect-chains that stating "remove steadfast and the game is better" is weird.
    this is maybe why none of the big game mechanism issues have been solved for V2.0.....you need to get a majority agreement of the deciders for changing a huge part of the book...which might need the x-times playtesting time.

    yhandros wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    but you sometimes have to fight things you dont want to.
    No, you haven't. If I know I cannot break a 60 man peasant unit with my iron orcs and that in the end I lose the combat I don't send them against the peasants in the first place. I try to outdeploy my oppontent, try to chaff him or whatever. But I don't say the problem is the peasants get the Ld from their general. The problem is a bad unit-unit match.
    if the solution to face 60 PEASANTS is to chaff them then there is something wrong with the game. ;)

    e.g. the casteling peasant horde army with several LD9 reroll bubbles is (or was? havent followed the latest KoE changes) the worst playstyle the game ever offered/invented. several hundred peasants around some flags in fact being unbreakable (not even crumbling like undeads) was one of my longest head-shaking.

    Quick Starter Team

    Playtester


  • yhandros wrote:

    I don't think it's a great idea to rework the whole thing, adjust points and address balance issues only for that 14%.
    Making additional Goblins -1pt/model cheaper would at the largest size unit get you a unit that costs 11.2% less.
    Which means they'll break around 14% more often.

    Seems a fair trade given they'll also now be able to afford more models for the same price, meaning they pay less to be able to be steadfast for longer or are more able to afford upgrades that make the unit able to deal more damage, or the points can be spent elsewhere in the army.
  • Removing steadfast might not be the answer but adjusting it would be a start.


    Back on the bsb thing.. reducing the effectiveness of hold yer sh*t or whatever the rule is called this edition would actually bring balance back to the force.

    As stated above it would mean unit stats would need to matter more. None of this silly Ld 4 stuff like trolls or really all of greenskins suffer from. Second, the gap between factions would actually narrow a bit.. elves wouldn't have 99% success it would mostly be 72% to 83%. vs say Orcs which would.. still be crap. BUT could be mitigated by internal rules or bsb specific bennies like I mentioned above.

    Right now kills account for too much and bsb's are "never fails" for elite factions and life or death for "the lesser races".
    I once witnessed a DE assassin and 2 blades of drab charge a 60 strong goblin block, take zero casualties and win the combat. The goblin unit of course failed a rerollable 6 and was destroyed. Yes its anecdotal but its not that uncommon.
    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
    Undying Deathstar Construction Inc.
  • I still think the rules are know by every one and each army has tools to deal with this units.
    I don't take goblins myself because reasons and don't cry like a baby when I face unit like these.
    If I don't like a game situation then I try to deal with it and don't instead propose to change the rules as the only alternative.
    Have you seen the yellow sign?
  • yhandros wrote:

    I still think the rules are know by every one and each army has tools to deal with this units.
    I don't take goblins myself because reasons and don't cry like a baby when I face unit like these.
    If I don't like a game situation then I try to deal with it and don't instead propose to change the rules as the only alternative.
    Is it waaaaaargh! or just waaaaaaaaah?
    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
    Undying Deathstar Construction Inc.
  • New

    Stygian wrote:

    yhandros wrote:

    I still think the rules are know by every one and each army has tools to deal with this units.
    I don't take goblins myself because reasons and don't cry like a baby when I face unit like these.
    If I don't like a game situation then I try to deal with it and don't instead propose to change the rules as the only alternative.
    Is it waaaaaargh! or just waaaaaaaaah?
    It's wiiiiiiiiiii
    :D
    Have you seen the yellow sign?