What is old is new again

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  • What is old is new again

    I am new to 9th Age after the fall of the Old World and a brief stay in Mantica. I am not sure if i should post this in General, Army list builds, or whatever so starting here in the land of my Empire army's rebirth. I had heard about 9th age long ago and had followed its developments on the fringe but had not seen anyone local playing recently (Baltimore/Annapolis area of Maryland). That all changed one day at Titan Games and Hobbies in Timonium. Since then i have watched a few games, played in 4 (the first 3 of which were in a tournament of about 20 players) and have gone 2-1-1 playing against Ogres and KoE. Ive used the same exact list with a mix of everything just to get myself situated with rules and scenarios and now trying to make the list more "me". I have read everything on the forums for the 3 main armies i own from The Old World and in general, but have tried (mostly failing) to avoid alot of the "political" style threads or those that are overtly negative as i KNOW these will color my opinions without trying things myself. So anyhow, mostly with a nod toward what i had assembled and some painted this is the list i chose and what i personally experienced with the units as well as musings as they occur to me. Im hoping for insights to the list, tactics, etc to help me crush others souls... i mean... have fun... with 9th Age.

    During the tournament i played 3 games. Once again, these were my first 3 games actually playing and not just spectating.

    Display Spoiler
    Game 1. Ogres: Played against a longtime friend who was also brand new back to the scene. many things were misplayed by both us because of rules creep in our old brains. We had also begun preparing a week before by reading "the rules" and not "beta rules". In the confusion of reading both there were changes we missed or overlooked but game was fun for us regardless. It was basically a tie in the end with a small lead for me. Neither of us took the objective as we misinterpreted the rule to be "closest scoring unit" not the correct "in the terrain feature".
    Game 2. KoE: Honestly after reading the boards i was expecting the knights to run around with hobbled horses and broken lances... I was nearly wiped from the board. The biggest learning experience for me here was to not let that summons the little beasty go off. I tried all 3 times to dispel and never did. 2 of these in my backfield and one cleaning up weakened units on his side of the table did some work. His tooled out lord made mince meat out of my steam tank, then my Demis, and then something else.

    Game 3. KoE: again, but different. This time no beasty. I mostly focused on dispeling the oaken throne and due to his cold dice i was usually able to shut down entire magic phases and the remainder with one spell going off. My Imperial guard took a charge from a large lance of regular knights and hero support (with help of Distractawagon) and then proceeded to grind them down for 3 turns. In the end i think i killed it all but a scorpion or 2. This was not a testament to my skill by far. His dice were chilly and i was rolling hot for sure.
    The List:
    Display Spoiler
    Prelate General HA PW Death Warrant, Imperial Seal
    I placed this guy in the Imperial Guard unit. I dont think i kitted him out correctly. I forgot he had Divine attacks. I thought that Death Warrant needed to deal a wound to gain its benefits. He only died in 1 game but should have died in 2 but for luck. His hatred was instrumental in 2 games of wrecking units but i barely get prayers off.

    Marshall BSB Great Tactician, Shield, Death Cheater.
    Placed with the sword and board guys to the side of the imperial guard with a ranged unit between. Was hoping to have larger coverage of the field with higher leadership, reroll, or both with so many units spread along my side. Pretty hardy but the heavy troops around him died in droves. Only lost him when i lost lots of guys in the unit. Dont think i kitted him out correctly also. the 4+ fortitude was nice for sure.

    Wizard LA, Adept
    Mostly i took her to become acquainted with the magic rules and maybe get something cast. I didn't think bound spells would get cast much without support. I mostly used her to cast bubble The Stars align on her unit of crossbows and catch the volley gun or cannon in the aura. Once people caught on they just saved dice for that and was able to get a prayer or 2 off. Died 2x on long charges or overrun into her unit.

    Characters: I think the 3 are fine but need refinement on items. In the past i always liked to go Char light but after looking at the lists on Sunday i seem to be in the minority there. I dont expect Empire leaders to be able to dish out the pain, i try to build them for survival and to continue to support the line.

    5x Elector Cav with lances and shields and musician. I was mostly using these guys because they were painted and a faster unit in core. In the past i would use small units of knights as chaff. In 2 games they took charges and shrugged them off and held up some bigger hitters for a couple turns. actually pretty happy with their performance but 220pts is a bitter pill for only 5 wounds. I usually ran them as interference for the Demis or on their own on a flank hoping to get in the back and cause confusion but they just aren't fast or maneuverable enough.

    29x heavy infantry FC Banner of Unity Sword and board
    Mostly disappointing. I like the banner in theory. I couldnt kill anything in combat, and other things had no issue killing me. Not sure what i expected here but they died in droves. Switch them out for spears maybe? They did have the bsb in there but no prelate. The buffmobile was usually shadowing the imperial guard and 6inches, even with turning the wagon sideways is hard to keep both in range and not exposing itself. I feel these guys need to go, but what else to spend those needed core points on?

    Ranged:
    14 Crossbow (wizard bunker),15 Guns, 15 Guns: I expected... more. Even buffed these guys only plucked a few wounds. crossbow and a unit of guns usually had accurate orders on them and maybe stars align. Ogres being tough 4 and knights having decent double saves could be culprits. I would usually post one in between the 2 blocks and one on outside of each. Found them underwhelming. once again, where else do you spend core?

    Volley gun: Almost always had 1 6 rolled. only once in all the games did i get a great roll and was totally overkill. Stars align really helped, but only worked once. if going first this gun is near worthless with a 24 inch range but discourages people from entering that envelope.

    Cannon: no one was scared of it, even with big monsters. I rarely hit and when it misfired, that table is pretty punishing. What else can deal with big things?

    Steam tank: i dont think i played it right any game. max of 5d3 but more likely 4d3 gives it a very low reliable charge range and is much more of a counter charger once the line is engaged. the cannon makes it versatile. most i have read or talked to say that this is the best unit in the army. ill give it a few more games for sure and try some without it. In game 3 vs koe when my dice were on fire it was awesome grinding the opponents knights, but in the other games it really didnt do much.

    Buff wagon. never really used the bound spell but the distracting wagon behind the imperial guard was awesome. hardest part was remembering it was there and trying to have it in range for other potential combats and not focusing on the guard.

    31 imperial guard, great weapons, FC Household Standard
    General was in here. I never got to use the death warrant because of my confusion with the rule as stated above, but these guys performed very well. almost 700 pt unit with almost 300 pt wagon in support with a 300 pt char inside makes me queezy. I really dont like having so many eggs in one basket, R3 4+ armor is just so squishy. Some said i should take both wagons with them. Seems a large investment.

    4x Knights of the sun griffon with mus and lances: I was reminded of the turn "rubber lance syndrome" all day, but the claws must have been cut also. When they did succeed in making the charge they failed to hit let alone wound a lot and failed DT tests like champs! :evil: Dont much like them, maybe switch to a knight unit and somehow add a prelate? Demis not being affected by hatred hurts. Could be me using them wrong and small sample size of games also.

    5x reiters with brace of pistols, HA. Very useful even if never killed anything. Gave them something to think about with vanguard during deployment, could sneak some wounds with pistols, chaff stuff up. 2 even lasted 3 rounds against a charge from some koe light cav.


    So short story long, i think i lack consistent punch. Lances on the charge are nice but then its just a slow grind of hoping to sneak a wound through. The demis at 4 wide are a huge attractive footprint and can be prone to being blocked by other units in the long battle line. i usually like to play 2 blocks with gun and cav support, but i dont think the sword and board guys are the key. maybe use them as an anvil unit of imperial guard with shields? use the distractawagon to back them up and the other one to support the great weapon dudes? Should i use a higher rank caster for more spell selection? Flaggellents were always a favorite of mine, but seems the crazies get no love here. I will try these all over the next month and have another event coming up at end of August in PA so hoping to get some games in and try some things. by no means do i think i will win a tournament but id like to be good enough to pull off some ties 8o
  • Cheers and salutations. Welcome to the 9th.

    First is first. A punch is hard to come by as EoS, so rather look at a combat a a longer fight then one round. You can look at it like the common Hammer/Anvil metaphors, one unit, for example Heavy Infantry, IG with sword and shield, flaggilants or a steam tank, are anvil units. Characters on monsters, great weapon IG with characters and magic and death star knights can be hammers. But you don't always need a super strong anvil sometimes a group of KoTS can do the job.

    EoS units are mostly weaker than the units in the other books, this is most true for core, but also the special choices are weaker on their own. But they are cheapish. With buffs, characters and magic they can stand up to most enemy units if they don't also have buffs and characters.

    Solution: Gang up on the enemy. Chaff or die. Use the orders and warrant support rule to stick around. A 20 man strong Heavy Infantery unit will stand on steadfast even if it loses 15 models in a combat vs a much stronger enemy unit, as long as it is within 8" range of a parent units Waithe a lot of ranks. Many opponents forget this.

    EoS characters are weaker than the characters of all of book so don't fight them unless it is one of your strongest characters vs one of their weaker once.

    Solution: The locket of Suna can be a strong, gamey, solution. Don't fight an enemy with your characters at all, run away, make your chars as cheap as you can.

    The main way to win with EoS is to gunline, chaff with rangers and militia, block with steam tank. Shoot the enemy dead and hope you roll well. Light infantry, warmachines are good at this. Reiters at super gamey, they can vanguard to put them to a first round safespot, then just run around your enemy and shoot at him all the time making sure that he can't charge them. He will hate you, but you may just win.

    29 heavy infantry cannon beat anything over the level of chaff, on their own, but if you play them 5 wide and 6 deep they can sometimes hold up a light combat unit. Mind you, not an OK one and not a KoE one. So if you want to play a big unit of Heavy Infantry it needs to be even bigger.

    Crossbow are stronger than handguns in nearly all games. Put the in a support position and rank them 3 deep, use orders to give them accurate and don't move them if you can avoid it. The light infantry is you good core, all the other core options are very weak. 5 man knight regiments are only used for chaff and as scoring darts. But they only move 14" max, so they kind of suck at that as well.

    Great weapon IG are not very strong I most cases, with all the buffs you can have and a larger unit they will beat light enemy combat blocks. Mainly they are good at holding on to points.

    -Cort
  • agree with @Cortrillion with most. But IG with greatweapons, buff them all you can and they destroy even the best any army can throw at them. But you need max size and minimum a prelate for hatred and the death warrant (this will allow them to average hit 100% of their attacks, yes that means sometimes more sometimes less, 8 wide thats a potential 32+ st6 hits.)
    and I still believe; Light infantry should fight and shoot in 3 ranks, Imperial Guards should have weaponmaster and both parent and support, and that halbardiers should wear heavy armor. For Sunna and the Emperor!!
  • Smythen wrote:

    agree with @Cortrillion with most. But IG with greatweapons, buff them all you can and they destroy even the best any army can throw at them. But you need max size and minimum a prelate for hatred and the death warrant (this will allow them to average hit 100% of their attacks, yes that means sometimes more sometimes less, 8 wide thats a potential 32+ st6 hits.)
    It would also mean opponent naive enough to go into that buffed up unit.
    Three things make the Empire great: Faith, Steel and Gunpowder.
  • Kruber wrote:

    Smythen wrote:

    agree with @Cortrillion with most. But IG with greatweapons, buff them all you can and they destroy even the best any army can throw at them. But you need max size and minimum a prelate for hatred and the death warrant (this will allow them to average hit 100% of their attacks, yes that means sometimes more sometimes less, 8 wide thats a potential 32+ st6 hits.)
    It would also mean opponent naive enough to go into that buffed up unit.
    See that's one thing that bothers me about this game, though its super rare. I don't think it should be possible to create unit that upon looking at the list you think "ok avoid it all game". Its a war game, no game should start like that, that should only occur during the game if your units get weakened to the point where now they may not be able to engage such a unit
  • Smythen wrote:

    agree with @Cortrillion with most. But IG with greatweapons, buff them all you can and they destroy even the best any army can throw at them. But you need max size and minimum a prelate for hatred and the death warrant (this will allow them to average hit 100% of their attacks, yes that means sometimes more sometimes less, 8 wide thats a potential 32+ st6 hits.)
    I would not run them at a deathstar from another book, in most cases you will lose half their number before the IG gets to swing. Try to do the math vs a DE or HE combat block.


    Marcos24 wrote:

    Lightning reflexes buff would always be a buff more me, more so than distracting if i have a large unit
    They are ini 3.
  • Cortrillion wrote:

    Smythen wrote:

    agree with @Cortrillion with most. But IG with greatweapons, buff them all you can and they destroy even the best any army can throw at them. But you need max size and minimum a prelate for hatred and the death warrant (this will allow them to average hit 100% of their attacks, yes that means sometimes more sometimes less, 8 wide thats a potential 32+ st6 hits.)
    I would not run them at a deathstar from another book, in most cases you will lose half their number before the IG gets to swing. Try to do the math vs a DE or HE combat block.
    Add a Inquisitor and an arcane engine and you will win the math game. I find them super strong with great weapons. Without they don't do any damage. S4 sucks. I rather kill a lot of enemies and get killed than avoid fighting. IG with sword and board is a toothless tiger
  • I think its difficult to do math for every combination of Opponents, especially when you include characters. I see it like this:

    So what makes Imperial Guard strong compared to other armies elite infantry? Its the easy access to hatred, battle Focus and fighting in an extra rank. And of course bodyguard and the buffs from the arcane engines and the prelate.

    Why do i think that great weapon serve better? Just because of the two points in strength. This enables the unit to fight against more targets and wounding is easier too. Sure s&b has better as and is harder to hit. But they lack damage soooo hard. With s&b 20 hits against t4 mean 10 ap1 wounds. With GW its 17 ap3 wounds. And especially against elves s&b strikes last too. This means a lot more fun with GW :-). So gw definetely wins the fun game..
  • I was pretty shocked how long my Great swords lasted, but i was taking 31 of them with a prelate and the Distractawagon. This just felt like a lot of points for a very slow unit. I ran horde... line... formation on them mostly for the larger footprint of keeping the wagon in range as well as the extra attacks. I think i mostly dont project any pressure onto the opponent with how slow my hittiest unit is. The Demis were usually were hitters in the old world but they really didnt do anything for me. I used to love to make lists, now i struggle with what to take and then start looking at other factions to see if they fit better into my play style. its a vicious cycle =)
  • Inquisitor [225pts]: Paired Weapons, Plate Armour, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Basalt Infusion, Hammer of Witches

    Prelate [280pts]: Plate Armour, Shield
    . Special Equipment: Death Warrant, Ghostly Guard

    Imperial Guard [615pts]: Banner Enchantment, Champion, 30x Imperial Guard, Musician, Replace Shield with Great Weapon, Standard Bearer

    Arcane Engine [280pts]: Arcane Shield

    ++ Total: [1400pts]


    vs


    Assassin [360pts]: Paired Weapons, Path of Bloody Murder
    . Master Poisoner: Bloodroot
    . Special Equipment: Hero's Heart

    Cult Priest [260pts]: Great Weapon
    . Special Equipment: Essence of Mithril - Standard Size only, Lucky Charm

    Dread Judges [638pts]: Champion, 22x Dread Judge, Musician, Standard Bearer
    . Banner Enchantment: Banner of Blood

    ++ Total: [1258pts] ++

    The prelate getting reroll to wound of - The judges and the priest attacking the rank and file. Doing 24 wounds on the charge and 18 wounds if not charging. The assassin kills the prelate, both on charge and not charge. The IG returning attacks doing 5 wounds on the charge and 2.5 if they are charged.

    Maybe I'm going at it the wrong way.

    -Cort
  • 1.never seen an Assassin in any de list
    2.if de are getting charged, my Inquisitor would likely kill the assassin at agi 10(pos)
    3.if you haven't shot away great parts of that unit with light infantry you did something wrong. De is an alpha strike Army. If you allow the De player to attack you with an unwounded deathstar unit, that de unit would smash away any of your units. Even ig with s&b would get smashed to pieces
    4. 30men is to small for ig. And you need better characters. Point is that EoS is able to improve its units more and more by investing more points. De can't do that to that extend afaik.
    5.conclusion: just making math with unwounded units leads to nothing (especially when comparing with one of the hardest hitting unit in the whole game)

    P. S.: i usually flank my ig with two units of 20 crossbows. These would kill the whole de deathstar in two rounds (11 per round)

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Adaephon_Delat ().

  • So we agree. EoS needs to bring much more than the enemy to kill them...in a fair fight.

    You where the one saying that IG win the math fight. I was the one saying. "Don't run your 30 IG with prelate and death warrant into an enemy combat block, they will get stomped" and we agree. Don't fight the enemy deathstar. You will not win.

    So your 2x20 xbows win the fight alone. Then bring 15ig with shields and some chaff. No point in bringing 40ig with engine and characters that is 1500 points out the window.

    I missed the blessed steel option on the inquisitor. There is a problem with killing the assassin though. The assassin can make way even if in Base to Base contact with an enemy model. So he will just move him to a spot not touching your inquisitor.

    Your point about EoS beeing able to improve their units by putting more points in is very true. DE can only get killer instinct, devestating charge banner and magic buffs and ofc death trance. They do have lightning reflexes and hatred already. The dread judges also have lethal strike and multi wound 2 vs foot and horse.

    It is ofc reflected in the price. A judge dread costs a wooping 24 points gaining only +1 M, +1ws, +2agi, hatred, lethal strike, multiwound and lightning reflexes. They lose 1 point of armour and bodyguard. The IG costs a meager 22 points.

    -Cort
  • You can't make this comparisons. A game would never be like this. And compared to elves you may be right, but there are a lot of other armies. And this de deathstar will die by shooting. Thats why no de player takes them. And 15ig won't hold against anything. A big deathstar also conserves points and scores easily. From my game experiences i would always take them in an allcomer list. never s&b.