Infernal Dwarf Unit Popularity Contest for Full Army Book

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

    • Infernal Dwarf Unit Popularity Contest for Full Army Book

      What are your favourite unit designs in the ID army? 53

      The result is only visible to the participants.

      Ok so for anyone that is not either new here/has been living under a rock, we are getting our full army book "next" (basically after Daemons, it's us). This means various things could be re-worked; now what we don't want to do is spend days mulling over changing things that people already like, instead of changing the stuff that is as useful as a limbless donkey.

      So there will be a sequence of polls put up, where I will ask you to vote for things that you like/enjoy the design of, the first (as you see here) will be units. Ranged units will be listed separately from their non-ranged counterparts, due to their completely different functionality. There will be another poll for special rules, and another for enchantments, and possibly one more for miscellaneous if necessary (like the hereditary spell). These will be posted later, once this poll has run its course a bit.

      Now, please do not take points cost into account. I know it's hard to do it, but we really need this to be a focus on designs.
      Also people do post your thoughts as well, this is just as important as the votes themselves; here is an example...

      "I like the Blunderbuss design as it makes them play differently to all other shooting units. And they don't overlap with other units in the Hail of the Gods category"


      There will be no guarantees that stuff will/will not be changed based on what happens here. As this is more of a guiding hand than something that will be strictly enforced. But what you put here can and will be used as evidence against you in a court of law be used to help make positive changes the community wants to see.

      If you have ideas for changes for something you do not like, feel free to post that as well if you think it will help. Even something simple like:

      "I don't like the Kadim Titan's design as it feels boring"


      Thank you and vote away!

      And if you have any questions just ask...just not stuff like "Tyranno, why are you up at midnight posting polls?" Because even I cannot answer that one.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Tyranno ().

    • Well, I have voted, this is what and why:

      - Kadim Titan: simply, I like to have the best non-charachter monster. His ofensive output is impresive, even if he has weakness in defense. Its nice to have the monster glass cannon in an army as thought as ours. Almost in the perfect spot, dunno if need a point decrease or little bonus.

      - Bb's: it has an unique design. Not just goes otherside the usual aproach designing weapons (extra AP in 90% of cases, but we have extra S, 0 AP) but promotes big units. Bad price.

      - Orc Slaves: we are an elite army. So we have non-scoring core as bargain. This unit alone talls a lot about our army fluffwise.

      - Immortals: they live in a nice spot between an offensive unit and a defensive one. They are thought, but not like pure anvil and they hit hard, but not as true hammer. And that's nice. I would like to see a way to promote great weapon immortals, but it is hard to compete with infernal weapon (great weapon + shield gives them parry but no +1 AS? Or +1 AS but no parry? Dunno, just a thought I've got now).

      - Gunnery Volley Gun: all gunnery team indeed. My lists in rare cases have 2 bound demon. If that's not the case, they have 2 Gunnery team. It is my fabourite unit in the book.
    • Blunderbuss:
      I do like the concept of a deep standing shooting unit. Standing compact and not spreading out in thin lines (like elves) seems very "dwarfish". The functionality is unique and effective if not very efficient (yet?) due to high point costs (again "dwarfish" traits here).

      Infernal Engine (Shrapnell Guns):
      I love my "Paintrain". Much more as a concept then the actuall incarnation on the table which is little to random with its shooting. Random hits & lowish chance to hit kind of add up to make it a grab bag (2d3+2 shots and/or accurate could fix this). I still hope for this becomming a mount for our Engenieer/Prophet. *fingers crossed*

      Prophet:
      Res 5 and good AS is great for a wizzard you don't realy need to grab magic stuff for his defence. On the other hand if you do, this guy is ready to go into the heat of battle and you oponent will have a hard time killing him.

      Titan Mortar:
      Nothing to not like here (maybe the "no pivot when bound daemon" ^^ ). Again a unique concept for ID. :thumbup:

      Orc slaves:
      They don't look like much on paper, but they are good chaff (if a little slow), quite resistant and an excelent HP pool for occultism. Also a good way to bring the background of an army onto the battlefield.

      Flamethrower:
      This is on of the better examples for the implemantation of "short ranged but powerfull". Nothing better then punish a monsterous unit that failed it's charge with a short-distance-flank-shot from this baby (I had exactly that at the weekend but rolled a missfire X/ ).
    • Manxol wrote:

      And that's nice. I would like to see a way to promote great weapon immortals, but it is hard to compete with infernal weapon (great weapon + shield gives them parry but no +1 AS? Or +1 AS but no parry? Dunno, just a thought I've got now).
      Great Weapons should better be the niche for the Lugars in my opinion. But they are still 6pts for great weapon X/ . IF they had weapon master this would be an ok price :D .
    • What grinds your gears? 37

      The result is only visible to the participants.

      Great work everyone!

      Now that this is on a roll, let me add a second poll. Same options, same number of picks, but this time I want you to vote on designs you HATE. Once again, no prices, just how it functions (or in this case does not function). Or maybe not even hate, but does not work the way you think it should work based on name/background, or if it is just dull and boring.
    • Ive voted for:
      - Titan Mortar - its in a good spot
      - Bull of Shamut - Semi-fast flying mount, whats not to like
      - Infernal Engine - Probably my favorite design
      - Kadim Incarnates - yeah, they are still great
      - Giant - Although i rarely use them i do like their design. Should have probably chosen Orc Slaves though, now i think about it :)

      What i really think needs work:
      Lammasu: I REALLY want to like this model, but too many just semi-useable functions (and therefore a high price) makes it hard to. Soooo iconic that it would be fantastic to see more fielded on the tables.
      Dwarves: They need better army-wide rules. I want rage, hatred and destruction indead of the current meh-solution.
      Great Bull of Shamut: Again i would really like to field it, but somehow right now that would be stupid...

      Contenders:
      - Taurukh Anoined: Hard to say what they need really, and we're seeing more of them already. I still find them lacking however.
      - Rockey Battery: Still hard to see its use.
      - Disciples: Too much good stuff in the B&B category for them to stand a chance atm..
    • My grinds:

      - Vizier: sayed it in another thread, he is just the bsb. I tried a lot the bullzir and love him, but on foot it is just bsb and no other reason to pick him. Maybe he need being a mini-overlord or a way to get Dis 10 or both.

      - Subjugator: his ofencive output is a waste, needs +1 A or buff for annoited. Tried him a lot, and he losed even to an abomination from VS.

      - Great Bull: tried twice, fooled me twice. +5 ++5 for a 1000 points model is outrageous.

      - Temple Lamasu: makes your phrophet a 1000 model wich isn't that great mage. Maybe got his use, didn't find it. Dunno what to do with him

      - Rocket Battery: 1-2 wounds per phase. If you are lucky. Too random.

      - Steam Hammers IE: imposible to chose his combats with his movement so restricted for charge. Can understand the rules for shooting version, but steam hammer should be better at charge, maybe getting at least a 90° pivot before charging.
    • The don't like list:


      Rocket Battery:
      We are the "short range but powerfull" guys and get the volley gun with longest range and lowest output. ?( 1-2 Wounds on low AS stuff is just noch enough. This is in the range of what I would expect from a weapon team... Although a real volley gun (looking over to DH) would be very welcome.

      Lammasu:
      The defensive setup (MR 2, Agis 5+, Att 2, Off 3) does not combine well with the breath weapon (although this might at least be used outside of combat) and especially the Aura of Unbinding. I'd suggest discard the later (two) and add something defensive (maybe hard target because of the magic smoke stuff ^^ ) or just cut some points accordingly.

      Engineer:
      Again an ant-synergy. Warmachines need to sit in the backyard (bacause they can't move and shoot) while the Wizzard (if you are no lunatic who pays 180 pts for the pure engineer option) Needs to be near the frontline (LoS, low casting range, Bodyguard).
      Bound Daemon, Infernal Engine and Weapon Teams do not benefit at all.

      Volleygun/Grenade Launcher:
      Hitting on 5+ or worse most of the time makes them rather uninteresting for me. The big advantage of moving and shooting of the flamethrower version is sadly lost on his red haired stepbrothers.


      Hobgoblins (Backstabbers):
      They have not been popular with the possibility to ambush but at least they had their niche. Now they are just bad. The increased charge range to flank and rear will hardly ever come into play. In theory you could build around them with a Giant that wips them forward, but is a high effort for at least questionable return.
    • There is quite a lot I really like with this army, although there are stuff to be improved even so.

      The concept of the Infernal Engine Shrapnel gun is fantastic. But should be a bit better at it. Either better aim, accurate, or more reliable number of shots. Also, don’t get why it (as well as the non-short version) can’t overrun ( nor pursue in the first round if it charged). I understand that if it gets stuck it takes a while for it to pump up the steam again, but when charging in it really should be able to just continue. Still, I take it in most lists.
      If only I could get two, and/or as a mount....

      Incarnates. Love these buggers. Although I honestly wouldn’t mind the choice for flying or not. So a bit customibility would be great.

      Gunnery teams. Awesome units. In theory. Very much how I like ID to play - mobile shooting. Rules wise - or damage output - they could get a bit better. At least the grenade launcher and the volley gun. The flamethrower is solid.

      Volcannon is great as it is.

      Blunderbusses. Great concept and again what I vision with ID. Still an advocate for shooting when charging. The price is horrible.

      Overlord. Powerful. At least with the Onyx score. Also, Fan the Flames. Very nice. If that will go away, well, not so much anymore. Also, need something so that not the Onyx Core is such a crutch for it. What that would be I don’t know.
      I’d also like my proposed idea before for him - Fear the Slavers: Break tests against a unit containing an overlord is made with -1. If forced to flee, the enemy gets swiftstride.
    • PROS:

      Titan Mortar - Wonderful machine. I love how it has four big things separating it from the more generic mortars: big damage, big crew, big effect, and of course big price.

      Taurukh - The new charge special rule made them perfect for me. Not quite the shock cavalry that goes through everything, but really good support "medium" cavalry option that has good armor and grinds well.

      Infernal Engine (hammers) - Mainstay for me. I love the style and love how it can hold a flank on its own. Good Res and HP make it almost immune to many units out there.

      Flamethrower - Like the mortar this thing has so much going for it. Mobility, really good damage, and good synergy and utility with the flaming things it does.

      Lugars - I've played mostly against VC, and these guys can really go through the unending chaff they have. I also like their flaming synergy.

      Hobgoblins (bows) - Cheap and different range than everything else. The ID front line is so crowded that it's refreshing to have these guys who don't have to think about their maneuvering and can just shoot from where they are.



      CONS:

      Grenade Launcher - I've yet to have any reason to pick it. It also does not have any flavor to it, not that everything has to have, but it's just so similar with the Volley Gun.

      Rocket Battery - The Titan Mortar has the four big things going for it. I wish this guy would also have some more big things too.

      Engineer - Looking at the other Engineers this one feels just a half of one.

      Taurukh Subjugator - No flavor. He makes the big block of meat and stats - that is the Anointed - just bigger and much more expensive block of meat and stats.

      Great Bull of Shamut - Not that much greater than the regular Bull.

      Infernal Warriors (shields) - Last spot for the IW's just because of my long lasting love/hate relationship with shields. This is more of a CoA thing than anything else. I just feel that they are in an awful spot of me much rather shoving Hobbos in front of the enemy and counter charging, or putting something much stronger in there to actually handle the situation by themselves.

      EDIT: Actually no. I'll change IW's for Backstabbers (chose just regular Hobbos, cuz there were no option for them). I hate the new Backstabbers. I feel that the optional Ambush was much better if you wanted one, and they did the same job before of just bringing poisoned weapons to the field. The new rules do almost nothing to get them to the target they want to poison.



      BLUNDERBUSS:

      BB's now are the best iteration they've ever been (price notwithstanding), I just wish there'd be incentive to use them MSU way, now that the IW's are 15 minimum and BB price being what it is, it feels really awful playing them that way.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Jarec ().

    • Tyranno wrote:

      Now, please do not take points cost into account. I know it's hard to do it, but we really need this to be a focus on designs.
      I'm sorry, but I have issues with this. Design and points costs go hand in hand, a units role on the battlefield can change depending on its points. For example a cheap unit of hobgoblin wolf riders can serve the role of expendable chaff, but if the unis was costly, then it would have to be used as warmachine hunters or whatever, and not as a unit of throw-away chaff.

      In fact I think the schizophrenic divide between designing and pricing is the biggest reason why especially ID have seen some ridiculous stuff like the current blunderbusses and rocket batteries.
    • Kirmiath wrote:

      Tyranno wrote:

      Now, please do not take points cost into account. I know it's hard to do it, but we really need this to be a focus on designs.
      I'm sorry, but I have issues with this. Design and points costs go hand in hand, a units role on the battlefield can change depending on its points. For example a cheap unit of hobgoblin wolf riders can serve the role of expendable chaff, but if the unis was costly, then it would have to be used as warmachine hunters or whatever, and not as a unit of throw-away chaff.
      In fact I think the schizophrenic divide between designing and pricing is the biggest reason why especially ID have seen some ridiculous stuff like the current blunderbusses and rocket batteries.
      Thats not the point, any unit can become chaff if cheap enough but there are other battlefield roles.

      Think about questions like the following when answering the poll.

      The unit...

      - is fitting thematically with what you would expect from it and has coherence with what it is?
      - is fitting for this army?
      - is fun to use and have an interesting playstyle?
      - offers counterplay for the opponent and it isnt frustrant to play against it?
      - improves the identity of the army?
      - has a defined role in the army?
      - has a design flaw that doesnt let it work as intended?
    • Kirmiath wrote:

      Tyranno wrote:

      Now, please do not take points cost into account. I know it's hard to do it, but we really need this to be a focus on designs.
      I'm sorry, but I have issues with this. Design and points costs go hand in hand, a units role on the battlefield can change depending on its points. For example a cheap unit of hobgoblin wolf riders can serve the role of expendable chaff, but if the unis was costly, then it would have to be used as warmachine hunters or whatever, and not as a unit of throw-away chaff.
      In fact I think the schizophrenic divide between designing and pricing is the biggest reason why especially ID have seen some ridiculous stuff like the current blunderbusses and rocket batteries.
      I think you are looking at this all wrong. These first two polls are not “which units do you like/not like taking in your army” but instead “which units do like/not like the design of as it relates to the identity of the army”.

      It is a pretty important distinction. Using the rocket battery as an example, I absolutely LOVE the design of the rocket battery. It perfectly expresses its identity and the identity of the army through game mechanics. The ID make technological marvels, and stay on the bleeding edge of tech (which unfortunately means that their designs are powerful, but still a couple of iterations away from being reliable). They put their minds toward solving the problem of fighting monsters, and instead of doing things the boring way (i.e. let’s just build cannons because that is what everyone else does) they said “let’s shoot a bunch of rockets at them. More rockets means more explosions! This is a great idea!” It is just such an infernal dwarf idea that I can’t help but smile when I think of it.

      That said, I don’t want to take it when I play because it was priced as though it is made entirely of diamond encrusted gold. But that isn’t the point of the poll. The poll just wants to know what designs you like and feel represent the identity of the army.




      As for my responses on the polls, this was actually a pretty tough question. There is a lot of design work that I like about this army, but also a lot that just doesn’t warrant being placed in either list.

      Favorite designs:
      - Rocket battery - See above. It is a perfect representation of an IDcannon”. Shame about the price. Hopefully with the new book the pricing will be better (especially since the BLT will be focusing on the one book rather than on 16)

      - Titan mortar - such a wonderful war machine. This is the only war machine I can think of that really nails the feel of artillery. Getting hit by an artillery barrage is devastating, and this sells that better than any other.

      - Orc slaves - even though I only use these on occasion, I can’t imagine how much worse off the army would be without this unit. This one unit (and CoA) describes the entire ID social structure through game mechanics. It is so good!

      - Immortals - I love this unit. Bodyguard and nigh immune to stomps/impact hits. It is an almost perfect representation of what I want dwarven infantry to be, and it is the standard to which I compare other infantry. Is it perfect? No, of course not (they die a little quickly for something called “immortal”). But they are good.

      - Disciples of lugar - With the addition of the updated chosen of lugar, this became one of my favorite infantry units. Fun and on fire.

      - Armored giant - One of the most fun monsters in the game.

      Honorable mentions:
      - hobgoblin wolf riders - They are a good unit. But is it a good design? Not sure. They are chaff, and do that job well.

      - Infernal engine (steam hammers) - I do like this unit, and this is my favorite configuration for it. But it is kind of one dimensional. Get it into combat, and it can do combat well. Yay. It is effective, but is it exciting? Again, not sure.

      - Kadim Incarnates - They are a powerful unit. But I don’t know that they really sell the fantasy of “weaponized fire demon”

      - Kadim Titan - Same issue. I think it is fine as a monster, but not sure it is really selling the fantasy that I want it to. I think it needs better defense to really sell the idea that this is the ultimate force of destruction that it is supposed to be.

      - Blunderbusses - I really like the design on paper. However, I haven’t had a chance to try it yet, so I don’t have enough experience with it to justify it being on my “favorite design” list.


      Least favorite designs:
      - Grenade launcher/infernal engine (shrapnel guns) - I hate 1d6 volley guns. They are so swingy, and often useless. I’d be happier with them as 2d3 volley guns. 2/3 of the rolls on these weapons are poor (1-3 are below average, and 6 is a misfire).

      - Lamassu - I love the IDEA of the unit, but I hate the unit. The casting (and the fact that only a wizard can ride it) indicate that this is a unit that wants to hang back and provide mobile casting support. The aura and the breath weapon indicate that it wants to be in combat. I want to do one or the other, rather than pay for a unit that is mediocre at both. If I want it to do both, I’ll put the prophet on a bull and give him a heroes sword.

      - Bound daemon - I’ve never liked the idea of this unit. If I want a war machine, I’ll get a war machine. If I want a monster, I’ll get a monster. I don’t want to spend a bunch to get a hybrid that can either be a war machine or a monster. If I am moving it into position to be a monster, I’m not shooting. If I am shooting, I’m not making use of the monster.

      - Infernal warriors - Why take these if I could take citadel guard instead? I don’t want a weak dwarf with more numbers - that goes against what I feel dwarfen infantry should be. I want them tough and strong like citadel guard and immortals.

      - Citadel guard (flintlocks) - I’ve always felt this had the same problem as the bound daemon. It is both a shooting weapon and a melee weapon. However, if I take it in a formation that is good for shooting (wide with 2 ranks, maybe 3 ranks max), it is going to be weak in combat and lose most of its attacks before getting to swing (so slow...). If I take it in a formation that is good for combat (deep with extra ranks as ablative wounds), then I’m paying a huge amount for shooting that I can’t actually use. It has always felt like a lose-lose to me. The weapon itself is strong, but the limited unit size and the aforementioned formation problems always make me want to take something else.
    • @lawgnome @Gomio

      I understand what you both are saying, and I both agree and disagree at the same time.

      Take the rocket battery for instance, when the preview for the redesign dropped I was HYPED! I couldn't wait to try it out. But then later when the cost came, I went from 100% hype to no hype.

      What is the point of a perfectly well designed unit, when it's stuck on the shelf because it gets a ridiculous price attached?
    • Kirmiath wrote:

      What is the point of a perfectly well designed unit, when it's stuck on the shelf because it gets a ridiculous price attached?
      Again, it is purely about the point of the poll.

      I fully agree with you that the rocket battery is WAY way way waywaywayway too expensive. I think everyone except the BLT agrees with you.

      This poll is about "Assuming that prices are adjusted to accurately reflect the power of the design, which designs do you like/not like".


      These polls are about figuring out where we need to focus our efforts when making the new book. Rocket battery design is liked? Great, we don't have to touch it (and just need to point out that the price is ridiculous). Lamassu design is borked? Let's focus on fixing that.
    • Kirmiath wrote:

      @lawgnome @Gomio

      I understand what you both are saying, and I both agree and disagree at the same time.

      Take the rocket battery for instance, when the preview for the redesign dropped I was HYPED! I couldn't wait to try it out. But then later when the cost came, I went from 100% hype to no hype.

      What is the point of a perfectly well designed unit, when it's stuck on the shelf because it gets a ridiculous price attached
      That's the point. Eventually BLT will get stuff down to a usable price. But we want to make sure the design is something people will enjoy and think is appropriate for what the unit does.

      Because at the end of the day, a wrong price can easily be corrected by a simple edit. But a failed design takes much longer to fix.

      So if you like the rocket battery's design, give it a tick. Just...imagine the price isn't eye-watering when you do it.