Infernal Dwarf Rule Popularity Contest for Full Army Book

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    • Infernal Dwarf Rule Popularity Contest for Full Army Book

      What are your favourite special rule designs in the ID army? 42

      The result is only visible to the participants.

      Ok, with the unit poll thoroughly underway, now is the time for poll number two.

      This time vote for your favourite (and least favourite once I have the post up) special rules in the army. Now I realise that some rules have multiple aspects and parts to them, so I will be splitting a few special rules into separate voting options (easily distinguishable) so more accurate feelings can be gauged.

      And as before, any descriptions or explanations will be gratefully appreciated.
    • What ticks you off? 40

      The result is only visible to the participants.

      And here is the angry part...enjoy;
    • Question:

      Do you want us voting for the rules exactly as they are, or for the idea of the rule?

      For example, volcanic embrace is a neat rule in concept, but I liked it better as an initiative 10 rule than as an initiative 0 rule, both in terms of utility and flavor (i.e. at Agi 10, this rule shows that they are so blisteringly hot that people pass out from heat stroke as soon as they get near. At Agi 0, this rule shows that they are kind of a warm, simmering heat, and as you spend time near them you get slowly cooked alive. Both are neat, but it is definitely a different flavor).
    • Likes

      Infernal Weapon:
      A good weapon when you are on a Budget and want to parry.
      I don't get why they can't be enchanted. They are not better then other "racial weapons" (sylvan blades comes to mind) that can be enchanted in my opinion.

      Infernal Armor:
      Nice to have easy access to plate armor. The 5++ against flaming is nice but rather useless (except when combined with fortitude for characters). Only the the red haired stepbrother of the Dragonforged Armor.

      Fan the Flames:
      Probably the biggest selling point for the Overlord.

      Volcanic Embrace:
      Nice an fluffy. Comming down from Ini 10 to 0 hurt it a bit too much though. At models Agi would be fair in my opinion.

      Lugar's Court:
      Nice little Bonus.

      Don't like:

      Chosen of Ashruk (Pass all Fear test):
      Small impact on Dis 9 stuff. Pretty please turn it around and let us ignore the -1 Dis instead.

      Chosen of Ashruk (2nd round battle Focus):
      Nothing more to say about that.

      Aura of Unbinding:
      Nice rule but on the wrong monster.

      Backstabbers/ Backstabber boss :
      The latest change is a slap into the face. Another nerf to the least used unit in the army and stealing its only (niche) purpose. X( The possibility to ambush was a great synergy and made the Boss a very usefull upgrade. Borrowing the General's discipline is nice (although not very fluffy, how is that suposed to work?), but I would not invest 120 pts (half of the units points) for it.
    • Couple i felt needed comments:

      Devastating Charge (+1 Arm) - not flavorful. These are bulls, they should have an offensive charge ability, no matter what the ASAW are.

      Searing Rage - now that many common anti-fire aegis abilities have gone to 3++, this ability doesn't trigger when it needs to. Should work against all aegis vs. fire. (Would be fluffier too - oh, you're not that protected vs. fire, okay, i guess my flames burn less hot... what?)

      Daemonic Fury - not only do we have the only non-warmachine artillery weapon that can't even pivot and fire, but it also gets an in-built chance to be forced to move. :rolleyes: Pick one. Also, why are only these daemons furious.
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ

    • Rules I like:

      Chosen of Ashuruk (ignore panic) and slaves: These two rules go hand in hand to indicate the ID social structure without needing to dump a bunch of story into it. I can see and understand the social structure of the entire army just by seeing how it plays. These two rules are amazing in concert (power-wise, they are ok, but who cares? It is army character!)

      Volcanic embrace: like I said earlier, I really like the lava hugs. It is a good way to represent that this is the army that cares about fire, and is a great way to make fire actually mean something. I do wish that it was Agi 10 instead of Agi 0, as those are two entirely different representations of what is going on (blisteringly hot compared to slow burn).

      Infernal weapon: It is a nice offshoot of the idea that this army is big on binding daemons into things. In this case, hand weapons. It would be nice if these could be enchanted, but it isn't a deal breaker either way.

      Lugar's Court: A rule that lets me take a useful character in with disciples? Yes, please.


      Rules I don't like:

      Chosen of Ashuruk (2nd turn BF): Since there are no obvious triggering events, I wind up forgetting this half the time. It is a neat idea in theory, but it is really unintuitive.

      Infernal armor: I like the army character element of it (hey look! these guys both like fire and are protected from it!), but with the game in its current state with regards to flaming attacks, this ability only comes into play on VERY rare occasions (typically mirror matches). With the AP0 on pyromancy, no one is going to throw fireballs at these units. With the high numbers of models in many units with this armor, the small amount of hits from alchemy makes most units bad targets (and the mounts all have better fire protection anyway), and the majority of flaming attacks (such as through the banner or magic weapons) can be turned on or off, meaning that no player that is smart enough to tie their own shoes is going to use flaming attacks against this rule.

      I dislike the idea that we are paying for a rule that does not ever come into play (I've never had the rule trigger in the entire time I've been playing this army).

      Aura of Unbinding: Neat rule, but it makes the lamassu very schizophrenic. As I've said earlier, the casting on the lamassu indicates that it wants to play at range while darting around, and the aura of unbinding indicates that it wants to be in combat. Shame I have to pay for both when I only really want to do one or the other.

      Searing rage: I like the frenzy test adding attacks part of the rule, but find the divine attacks against the 2+ fire ward annoying. It says "chances are you are totally screwed, but maybe you have a chance of getting one wound in if you are really lucky". It doesn't feel like a helpful rule, because if you fight against something with a 2+ fire ward, you are going to lose anyway.

      Ponderous: Nothing says unstoppable force of inertia like a train that comes to a complete stop and can't move anymore after hitting a small speed bump.
    • Squirrelloid wrote:

      Devastating Charge (+1 Arm) - not flavorful. These are bulls, they should have an offensive charge ability, no matter what the ASAW are.
      Yes, also this.

      I like the idea of this rule, but the fact of the matter is that this army uses BULLS! Bulls are known for two things: charging, and tricking unsuspecting tourists with Rocky Mountain Oysters.

      That's it. That is what they do. If ASAW doesn't let bulls charge, then ASAW needs to be adjusted.
    • Squirrelloid wrote:

      Couple i felt needed comments:

      Devastating Charge (+1 Arm) - not flavorful. These are bulls, they should have an offensive charge ability, no matter what the ASAW are.

      This is 100% correct. Bull units need to do more damage when they charge. The +1 armour feels almost like a token gesture to keep people quiet.

      And if anyone disagrees with the idea that bull-units should do more damage when they charge, then I invite them to travel to Pamplona to get some first-hand experience. Report back afterwards (death by bull stampede also supports my claim...just saying before-hand :P).



      Searing Rage - now that many common anti-fire aegis abilities have gone to 3++, this ability doesn't trigger when it needs to. Should work against all aegis vs. fire. (Would be fluffier too - oh, you're not that protected vs. fire, okay, i guess my flames burn less hot... what?)

      Bingo.


      Daemonic Fury - not only do we have the only non-warmachine artillery weapon that can't even pivot and fire, but it also gets an in-built chance to be forced to move. :rolleyes: Pick one. Also, why are only these daemons furious.

      I think the simple answer is that these are daemons that are basically locked inside tin cans. If I locked you inside a tiny cramped tin can, I don't think you would be very pleased with the situation xD.
    • Likes:

      1. Infernal armor
      Feels really flavorful, and sometimes it's even useful.

      2. Chosen of Ashuruk (Ignore Greenskin panic)
      Not having this rule would be utterly ridiculous, lets face it.

      3. Volcanic Embrace
      Also feels flavorful, and is quite useful. I do miss Initiative 10 though.


      Dislikes:
      1. Chosen of Ashuruk (Battle Focus in 2nd round of combat)
      Probably the most forgotten about rule in the entire game, not to mention that when it actually kicks in, your unit is most likely already gone or won.

      2. Full Steam Ahead
      I don't get why we have to be a special snowflake without 360 charge.

      3. Backstabbers
      I don't get the change that happened. It went from a fun ability you'd probably never use, to a boring ability you'd definitely never use.


      Honorable mention:
      Devastating Charge (+1 Armour)
      ???
      Yes, bulls are known for their gentle yet defensive charges.
    • Kirmiath wrote:

      Likes:

      1. Infernal armor
      Feels really flavorful, and sometimes it's even useful.

      2. Chosen of Ashuruk (Ignore Greenskin panic)
      Not having this rule would be utterly ridiculous, lets face it.

      3. Volcanic Embrace
      Also feels flavorful, and is quite useful. I do miss Initiative 10 though.


      Dislikes:
      1. Chosen of Ashuruk (Battle Focus in 2nd round of combat)
      Probably the most forgotten about rule in the entire game, not to mention that when it actually kicks in, your unit is most likely already gone or won.

      Also 1-attack models are literally the worst thing imaginable to have this rule. Even when it works AND you remember it, there is a good chance it will do nothing.


      2. Full Steam Ahead
      I don't get why we have to be a special snowflake without 360 charge.

      Well at least it stops the train being massively broken, like the Dreadmill. (I will throw shade at that thing whenever I see it)


      3. Backstabbers
      I don't get the change that happened. It went from a fun ability you'd probably never use, to a boring ability you'd definitely never use.

      Ok I think it is time this was addressed.
      We were going to be forced to remove Ambush either way; so we decided to use a design slot to get the jump early and send out a design to see if it worked. Clearly it's not a great start (although someone used a Backstabber list at ETC which is, as far as I am aware, a first
      for the unit).

      Not to say you shouldn't be calling it bad; by all means do so. But it wasn't something we did on a whim. This was coming somewhere down the line, like it or not. But now we have more time to fix it.



      Honorable mention:
      Devastating Charge (+1 Armour)
      ???
      Yes, bulls are known for their gentle yet defensive charges.

      I know right. I should have sat in that field in Wales a bit longer a few years back...
    • Personally, I listed:

      CoA (Ignore Greenskin Panic)
      Slaves
      Opportunist
      Volcanic Embrace
      Infernal Weapon

      Because IMO, these are the best designs we have in terms of flavour meeting function. The hierarchy of caring is perfect, Slaves being super-uninterested in winning the fight is perfect, Opportunist is perfect, "these things are on fire, thus flaming attacks and burning through proximity" is great, magic weapons for a unit is perfect (including not being able to enchant them further IMO - it says "yes, ID can mass produce enchantments, but you can't double enchant things!").


      Ponderous is bad and Dev Charge (Armour) is a kludge, but I reserve my hate for:

      CoA (2nd turn bonus). (my only downvote)


      We need to swap our ASAW around. We NEED a strength in first turn damage. Slow movement units NEED to hit hard when they finally get there. It's that dang simple.


      Cavalry being first turn strong is okay (they need to waste time heading for flanks) but the fact that we had so much first turn stuff before the stupid stripping shows how much we need it.


      JMO, but it's what I'll be repping as hard as I can for the teams I can rep to.

      Background Team

    • To further what Tyranno said:

      Our notable failures (CoA, Armoured Charge, Rocket Battery, Blunderbusses, Backstabbers) were all cases of us trying to get ahead of the curve on the FAB. Three were to match ASAW (and thus this way we have months of evidence as to whether it's a good idea), while the other two were trying to make a design that wouldn't be redundant with existing entries and thus pushed into new territory (and thus saw the RT and BLT be extremely cautious on them)

      From one POV, we've had an angel on our shoulder to make sure we got these out early and can fix them in the FAB. If they'd come out WITH the FAB, we'd be more likely to be stuck with 'em.

      Background Team

    • I voted positive for the

      CoA - Pass all fear / Ignore panic

      I think this have already been said, but these 2 are great together and fit our race perfectly (Could remove that -1 diciplin from fear tho)

      Fan the Flames

      Really like this, as this is the only reason (besides onyx core), to get an overlord. Get this guy into some immortals or citadel blocks, and you can become a pretty big threat, no one want to tangle with... I just wish we had some dwarves who had 2 attacks (Lugar's dont count :) )

      Volcanic Embrace

      Its awesome, but it should proc at agi 10 or atleast on initiative...

      Slaves

      I want more different slaves! :D
      It fits perfectly, and probably helps to keep such a good unit in the low price range... The limitation is acceptable, since we can work around it in alot of ways (Giant whip, Characters, Dwarves, taurukhs)


      The Negative.. ohh boy...

      Devestating charge +1 armour

      This one makes no sense at all... Its nice and all, but these are as many people have said, BULLS!

      Ponderous

      I dont get how an infernal, demonic infused machine can get stuck after it hits a few units... this is a murder train for god sake! Let it do what its name suggest...

      Sering rage

      I already dislike the Titan, because it's costed, as if it had a babysitter (Prohpet with Besheluk's) on his shoulders, the entire game... Which is insanely hard to do in the first place. I really dont get this mechanic. It makes no sense... If you want him to cost 575, then give him divine attacks and be done with it.

      Chosen of Ashuruk (Battlefocus)

      People have already said, what needed to be said... Its a stupid rule, which dont benefit or make sense in any way, shape or form for us, and while it's cool to get 2 hits on a 6, ON the second turn, it never happens... Fight is either won or lost already, or you have to few hits anyway to make a diffrence...

      Aura of unbinding

      Cool ability, but on the wrong bull... If the other bull had it, we could make an insanly dangerous hero hunter, but alas...
    • Top:
      1.Volcanic Embrace - most iconic ID rule in my opinion, usefull and fluffy. If Agi 10 is forbiden, make it units Agi at least.

      2.Infernal armours/weapons - same as previous one.

      3.I do not have clear 3rd proposition to distinguish, we got some neat rules but they all got some anoying issues e.g fan the flames -> wasted when mounted, probobly against ASAW, unbinding aura->nice rule on wrong model

      I want to mention CoA battle focus here. I hated this rule for a long time but after several games I am starting to belive it is not bad rule its just a half of a rule. We need second part which is more tools to improvesurvivability. Ward save when charged, imporved ARM, Agi debuff, distracting this sort of things. Currently we are denied of it. Word of iron wont do the job if it is the only one. Thats why I like witchcraft so much with ID, even if the "price" is so high.

      Bottom:
      1.Devastating Charge (+1 Armour) - its nice rule but we all know its not what you expect from charging bull. I could accept that this unit is not ment race with tuskers in dmg output but in such case we should push for 4W as Felldrakes have. They also got fear and are faster so we should be able equal in W. Also in my last game agains OK I came up with an idea that Annointed should be able to stomp cav, war beast and larg infantries, just looking at the models. Its relative small buff, goes with ASAW and makes them more "bully" which we all expect I think.

      2.Backstaber Boss/Backstabers - if somenone forgets about 2nd turn battle focus, who does remember these?? Usless rules imo.

      3.Steam powered chassie - it was not on the list but I think it should be mentioned. Of course march and shoot is nice, but its not anything special to move 6" and shoot with this kind of units but no flee reactiion is really haevy panelty for this unit. Is it really necessary to have it? No other weapon team have it, and with short range weapons you often have a dilema not to shoot or give opponent opportunity to make tactical charge against us.
    • Favourite:
      Chosen of Ashuruk (Pass all Fear tests): I like this little rule that can be quite handy now and then. It feels thematic.

      Infernal Armour & Infernal Weapon: These two special equipment types are just what sets your normal HW+HA/PA apart from other armies. Special equipment like this should be more present in all books in my opinion.

      Devastating Charge (+1 Arm): Although this was a big change from +1 S, I have learned to deal with it and it might even be a better rule. The extra save on Taurukhs is really nice. It is often an incentive for me to charge.

      Blessing of Nezibkesh: Very cool and unique rule. Something that sets Immortals apart from other GW infantry. (uh Elite Infantry)

      I would have picked CoA (Battle Focus) or Volcanic Embrace as well, but I could only select five options. I didn't pick BF because it is still in a tricky spot.



      Ticks me off: only three actually
      Daemonic Infusion: sounds cool, but hardly does anything. Also I believe it has no use on an Infernal Engine with Steam Hammers? Causing Fear would be more suitable in my opinion.

      Fan the Flames: Just Hatred. Could be done more with this rule. Perhaps instead just BF from round 1?

      Ponderous: clunky rule with weird exceptions. Oh you want to reform? Well then make a Restrain Pursuit Test, since you CAN pursue although you pursue 0"???



      Strange btw that we can pick Infernal Weapon, but not Flintlocks or Blunderbusses in this poll. Perhaps those are just covered by their unit entries?
    • Kasocles wrote:

      Strange btw that we can pick Infernal Weapon, but not Flintlocks or Blunderbusses in this poll. Perhaps those are just covered by their unit entries?
      Bingo.

      We already had them covered before, didn't really want to put them on two votes twice.

      But for stuff like Immortals, you could easily like them, but think their ability needed work. But for Blunderbusses or Flintlocks they define the unit.