The Sad State of Dragons in T9A

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  • The Sad State of Dragons in T9A

    Hey all,

    If you are like me and come from a warhammer background, you will no doubt recall the awe, fear and fascination conjured by seeing huge and powerful monsters on the battlefield. Personally, the Dragon represents the most powerful and awesome creature that can be included in your army. The models that exist are amazing and the creature itself is surrounded by fantastic lore and backgrounds.

    It is such a shame, therefore, that the dragon model across all armies has been relegated almost permanently to shelves because they are so far from being a competitive choice. You don’t see the dragon on the battlefield and it’s a real shame.

    It comes down to not being able to protect the big guy as you can a smaller model, as they have no access to anything better than a 3+ AS. The current rules also stop the use of “offensive”armour items such as the Sylvan Elf Curse of the Black Stag (of which I’m sure it is not the intention of the rule).

    I strongly believe that a reworking of the rules that surround the protection to a dragon would see an increase in their use. Surely a mighty and magical model deserves a 6+ Ageis save at the very least. There are so many easy ways to fix the dragon to at least take them to a place of being “used sometimes” rather than never used at all.

    Bring back the Dragon! Best models in the game that are currently collecting dust on the shelves.
  • I use a dragon every game. it is very good in my experience.

    WDG sorceror adept, alchemy, paired weapons, heroes heart, binding scroll.

    More useful than a pure combat character with the magic utility, plus with the armour buff you can get it to a 1+ which is pretty nice
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • We've got a number of issues that nerf Dragons (and many other monsters).

    1. Fly meaning no ranks
    Monsters need to count as having a single full rank when they fly, like their non-flying versions.

    2. Fly meaning cannons hurt you more
    Cannons already do D3+1 wounds, doing D3+2 is excessive when most flying stuff doesn't get that many wounds to start with and the bigger things won't have any ability to protect themselves against hits beyond praying the other guy rolls a 1 to wound. Mostly this is a cannon problem as nothing else gets clipped wings and not everyone gets cannons.

    3. Many monsters are just Large Cavalry
    Griffons and such, they're not Monsters and they should be because of the following issue

    4. A lack of wounds
    We've copied the weird trend from warhammer 8th edition of giving the bigger stuff barely any wounds so they die very quickly, which means the smaller stuff got converted into cavalry so they could get saves to not die so fast leaving the bigger stuff nowhere. Ideally monsters like Griffons should get 7 or more wounds, Dragons getting 8 or more but they offset this with a lack of saves for the most part.

    5. That damned 0-1 limit
    This makes it seem like it should be powerful because it's rare when that's not the case.

    6. Stomp
    Monsters don't need D6 stomp against Infantry but nothing else...it would be better the rule functioned differently.
    ie. Stomp (3, 4+) meaning you get 3 stomps hitting on a 4+ as a special attack rather than D6 auto-hits.
    Let them stomp cavalry as well so people feel they're better suited to mauling things other than just infantry.

    7. Breath Weapons
    Same sort of issues as Stomps, but since they're 1 use only they're too effective for that one use and since you can attack and stomp and breath attack an enemy you can do absurd damage in a single round with a bit of luck. Ideally they'de be less scary and more in line with Stomp, and you'de have to pick which you use each turn instead of getting both.



    **edit**

    8. The whole duel nonsense where the mount is usually completely incapable of making any attacks because the enemy unit contains a unit champion.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by theunwantedbeing ().

  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    I use a dragon every game. it is very good in my experience.

    WDG sorceror adept, alchemy, paired weapons, heroes heart, binding scroll.

    More useful than a pure combat character with the magic utility, plus with the armour buff you can get it to a 1+ which is pretty nice
    No offense but this means nothing especially if there is no relative point to tie into it. I can just easier say how bad they are (which OP has stated).
    :HE: Beware of the panda....with big guns
  • pk-ng wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    I use a dragon every game. it is very good in my experience.

    WDG sorceror adept, alchemy, paired weapons, heroes heart, binding scroll.

    More useful than a pure combat character with the magic utility, plus with the armour buff you can get it to a 1+ which is pretty nice
    No offense but this means nothing especially if there is no relative point to tie into it. I can just easier say how bad they are (which OP has stated).
    Yeah sure, it means nothing at all. I'm just some guy giving my opinion too.

    I guess my "relative point" is that I use a dragon, have done a lot, faced various opponents and find it worthwhile.

    Take from that what you will.

    I apologise if my post was not worth the two seconds spent writing it and didn't come up to the erudite standards of wisdom displayed everywhere else on this forum ;)
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • When I started playing in 4th/5th it was exceptionally rare to see more than one monster. They were centerpieces back then, but no more.

    Regarding all monsters

    - More wounds/higher price and maybe a Regereation special rule here and there, so we get rid of the need for saturation
    - Less RPS (D3+2 Stomps for example, Breath 3D3 for example and useable every turn but needs to roll to hit)
  • Right now I actively use Wasteland Behemoth with adept sorc. It is a closest thing you can get to dragon without being a dragon. Considering that my most favorite spell is breath of corruption, so behemoth can at least parody a dragon. My results are following:
    1) Dragons just don't worth the points. If i was able to at least use dragon without rider, for current 460p it would be a decent monster option.
    2) I agree that any gigantic unit (except giant because he is cheap) like dragons and dragon ogres and behemoths need at least Fortitude or Aegis 6+. RIght now only chaos lord can grant permanent Aegis 6+, but final cost becomes too huge.
    3) Dragons need to be more different. Look at HBE dragon and WODG Wasteland Dragon. Price almost identical, while HBE One flying slightly faster. Not other differences whatsoever.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future
  • Wesser wrote:

    When I started playing in 4th/5th it was exceptionally rare to see more than one monster. They were centerpieces back then, but no more.

    Regarding all monsters

    - More wounds/higher price and maybe a Regereation special rule here and there, so we get rid of the need for saturation
    - Less RPS (D3+2 Stomps for example, Breath 3D3 for example and useable every turn but needs to roll to hit)
    How about (like in my example with breath of corruption) to replace normal breath attack with a spell. Like dragon (being a magical creature) need to use a veil first accumulating enough energy to unleash flame?
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    Wesser wrote:

    When I started playing in 4th/5th it was exceptionally rare to see more than one monster. They were centerpieces back then, but no more.

    Regarding all monsters

    - More wounds/higher price and maybe a Regereation special rule here and there, so we get rid of the need for saturation
    - Less RPS (D3+2 Stomps for example, Breath 3D3 for example and useable every turn but needs to roll to hit)
    How about (like in my example with breath of corruption) to replace normal breath attack with a spell. Like dragon (being a magical creature) need to use a veil first accumulating enough energy to unleash flame?
    Nah, I don't see Breath weapons as a magical ability... and what about those of all other monsters?
  • Wesser wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Wesser wrote:

    When I started playing in 4th/5th it was exceptionally rare to see more than one monster. They were centerpieces back then, but no more.

    Regarding all monsters

    - More wounds/higher price and maybe a Regereation special rule here and there, so we get rid of the need for saturation
    - Less RPS (D3+2 Stomps for example, Breath 3D3 for example and useable every turn but needs to roll to hit)
    How about (like in my example with breath of corruption) to replace normal breath attack with a spell. Like dragon (being a magical creature) need to use a veil first accumulating enough energy to unleash flame?
    Nah, I don't see Breath weapons as a magical ability... and what about those of all other monsters?
    Like felldrak ancient for example. A big thing that is even more expensive than any dragon. Behemoth have exactly the same price as wasteland dragon and one of the biggest base sizes in the game.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Happy Aspid ().

  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Could just make breath weapons D6 hits and can be used every turn?
    Because this way any at least somewhat fast moving unit will be able to bombard slower ones every turn, while kiting it forever.
    With D6 S4 shots...? You will waste your 1200 point dragon a whole game spitting fire at some chaff for 6 turns.
    Ammertime Podcast Host
    soundcloud.com/ammertime-podcast
    VC von Karlstein Army Blog
    The Von Karlsteins
  • Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Could just make breath weapons D6 hits and can be used every turn?
    Because this way any at least somewhat fast moving unit will be able to bombard slower ones every turn, while kiting it forever.
    With D6 S4 shots...? You will waste your 1200 point dragon a whole game spitting fire at some chaff for 6 turns.
    Why chaff? There are enough targets for such attacks in this game. And additionally, while kiting your victims you are still proposing a threat to everything in your range.

    What build allows makes even ancient dragon to cost 1200?
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Could just make breath weapons D6 hits and can be used every turn?
    Because this way any at least somewhat fast moving unit will be able to bombard slower ones every turn, while kiting it forever.
    With D6 S4 shots...? You will waste your 1200 point dragon a whole game spitting fire at some chaff for 6 turns.
    Why chaff? There are enough targets for such attacks in this game. And additionally, while kiting your victims you are still proposing a threat to everything in your range.
    What build allows makes even ancient dragon to cost 1200?
    Prince on a Ancient Dragon with a great weapon is 925 + 200 points of items is 1125....

    If you are "posing a threat" then you probably wont use the breath weapon every turn as a shooting weapon.
    Ammertime Podcast Host
    soundcloud.com/ammertime-podcast
    VC von Karlstein Army Blog
    The Von Karlsteins
  • Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Could just make breath weapons D6 hits and can be used every turn?
    Because this way any at least somewhat fast moving unit will be able to bombard slower ones every turn, while kiting it forever.
    With D6 S4 shots...? You will waste your 1200 point dragon a whole game spitting fire at some chaff for 6 turns.
    Why chaff? There are enough targets for such attacks in this game. And additionally, while kiting your victims you are still proposing a threat to everything in your range.What build allows makes even ancient dragon to cost 1200?
    Prince on a Ancient Dragon with a great weapon is 925 + 200 points of items is 1125....
    If you are "posing a threat" then you probably wont use the breath weapon every turn as a shooting weapon.
    Why? You can easily shoot flame every turn you are near enemy. If dwarven bomber can do it (by the way it need to move much closer) why can't you? Especially if you have a lord who will shoot with his 0+ bow. Add some magical items to the mix, you would be surprised with results. Then Imagine a dragon that can every turn of melee to stomp, attack with claws, attack with rider and attack with breath? He will erase everything.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Could just make breath weapons D6 hits and can be used every turn?
    Because this way any at least somewhat fast moving unit will be able to bombard slower ones every turn, while kiting it forever.
    With D6 S4 shots...? You will waste your 1200 point dragon a whole game spitting fire at some chaff for 6 turns.
    Why chaff? There are enough targets for such attacks in this game. And additionally, while kiting your victims you are still proposing a threat to everything in your range.What build allows makes even ancient dragon to cost 1200?
    Prince on a Ancient Dragon with a great weapon is 925 + 200 points of items is 1125....If you are "posing a threat" then you probably wont use the breath weapon every turn as a shooting weapon.
    Why? You can easily shoot flame every turn you are near enemy. If dwarven bomber can do it (by the way it need to move much closer) why can't you? Especially if you have a lord who will shoot with his 0+ bow. Add some magical items to the mix, you would be surprised with results. Then Imagine a dragon that can every turn of melee to stomp, attack with claws, attack with rider and attack with breath? He will erase everything.
    Its a dragon. It should be powerful and its cost should refelct that. Right now as the Op states, they are very underwhelming.
    Ammertime Podcast Host
    soundcloud.com/ammertime-podcast
    VC von Karlstein Army Blog
    The Von Karlsteins
  • Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Henrypmiller wrote:

    Could just make breath weapons D6 hits and can be used every turn?
    Because this way any at least somewhat fast moving unit will be able to bombard slower ones every turn, while kiting it forever.
    With D6 S4 shots...? You will waste your 1200 point dragon a whole game spitting fire at some chaff for 6 turns.
    Why chaff? There are enough targets for such attacks in this game. And additionally, while kiting your victims you are still proposing a threat to everything in your range.What build allows makes even ancient dragon to cost 1200?
    Prince on a Ancient Dragon with a great weapon is 925 + 200 points of items is 1125....If you are "posing a threat" then you probably wont use the breath weapon every turn as a shooting weapon.
    Why? You can easily shoot flame every turn you are near enemy. If dwarven bomber can do it (by the way it need to move much closer) why can't you? Especially if you have a lord who will shoot with his 0+ bow. Add some magical items to the mix, you would be surprised with results. Then Imagine a dragon that can every turn of melee to stomp, attack with claws, attack with rider and attack with breath? He will erase everything.
    Its a dragon. It should be powerful and its cost should refelct that. Right now as the Op states, they are very underwhelming.
    Say this to FDA. He is an exact copy of Ancient Dragon statwise, but don't have access to: rider, amulet enchantments, his weapon enchantments cost double, his weapons options are expensive AND he pays with his health for ability to breath the exact same flame you have access too.

    I am not against the concept of really powerful units that have an appropriate cost, but i am totally against exploits and with some creativity you can exploit the unlimited breath.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future
  • duxbuse wrote:

    I'm here to say, monsters are ok as is if they were given 50+% more wounds.
    Giants are suddenly much more viable with their 8 wounds.

    No one likes to field a 1000+ points unit to have it taken off with one round of divination magic or a lucky cannon shot. Its demoralising.
    Canon cant kill it with one shot, but i agree spells can, and some of them with ease.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future