Team Turkey's general feedback after 2018 ETC

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

    • Team Turkey's general feedback after 2018 ETC

      New

      Hi everyone,

      For the last 2 years, I was the coach of Team Turkey, and I was used to do a post-mortem after the ETC. This year, I was a player but still, I was the one who built our army lists in collaboration with @Danimoth and @LegioIgnatum so I felt like writing a long feedback again :)

      This year we had high hopes, but after @Danimoth failed to get a visa at the last moment, we struggled to find a replacement for him and finished the tournament in 21th place. Still, if England didn't steamroll us in last game, we could finish around 10th place or so :)

      Anyways here is our feedback:

      I'll start with my own feedback first, since I was a player this year. Here is the list I played in the tournament:

      Can "Adatopoulos" Adatepe – Dwarven Holds
      215 - Engineer, General, Ancestral Memory, Shield, Wyrm Slayer Rocket
      185 - 1x Anvil of Power, 3 Battle Runes
      180 – 10x Clan Warriors, Vanguard, Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, M
      160 – 10x Clan Warriors, Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, M
      160 – 10x Clan Warriors, Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, M
      160 – 10x Clan Warriors, Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, M
      160 – 10x Clan Warriors, Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, M
      160 – 10x Clan Warriors, Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, M
      160 – 10x Clan Warriors, Paired Weapons, Throwing Weapons, M
      350 – 1x Grudge Buster
      350 – 1x Grudge Buster
      305 – 2x Steam Copter, Attack Copter
      305 – 2x Steam Copter, Attack Copter
      570 – 25x Seekers, M,C
      570 – 25x Seekers, M,C
      255 – 1x Field Artillery, Cannon
      255 – 1x Field Artillery, Cannon
      TOTAL: 4500

      Dwarf MSU. IMO Dwarves have the best MSU because they have T4 and Discipline 9. I collected 84 points in ETC with this list. The list was just fine. 10-man warriors with paired weapons are bonkers. You cannot win 20-0 with it (it's just impossible). I don't think you can lose more than 15-5 with it either, if you know what you are doing. Even in my worst games, I scored 8 points with it. Although I collected a lot of points, I felt I really struggled against good players. I would NOT recommend anyone to play it, because the list is a complete mind-boil, there are trillions of things to take care of. I swore to never ever touch the dwarves again for my entire life after the tournament. They also got NO MAGIC (magic is too frecking strong) :((((( If you are really hell bent on playing it, I'd recommend to be very careful about overrun arcs (if you even get 1 overrun, you are done for). This list usually wins the game in one or more of these ways:

      - They underestimate your list, mostly 10 man warriors with paired weapons. 10 man warriors pull way more than their weight when they get a flank charge - nobody expects them to break a taurasaur on charge, and they REALLY don't expect to get 80 throwing axe shots to their unit of forest rangers - wink wink norway :)
      - You pull of a really lucky flank charge-break-overrun into another unit- with your 10 man warriors by rolling 9-10 (happens more than you would expect, because you generally push forward with warriors, and you have so many charge arcs that the opponnent usually just can't calculate them all. You do try 5-6 times of such charges in each game, and you are bound to get lucky eventually. Besides, if you fail, you lose nothing - you can always flee later)
      - You get your gyrocopters behind enemy lines
      - You flee/chaff with your warriors and set up a counter-charge with slayers + grudge buster
      - You get the objective. In most of the objectives, the list is just bonkers.

      This list hates to play against cowboys and gunlines and weaver of change (altough, I won against wood elves in 3 games with scores 15-5 or more). Against everyone else, it's just fine - you don't have good or bad matchups. We used this list mostly as a weird/suprise sort of anvil to block the lists we feared the most.

      What would I change about this list: Maybe I should have taken some sort of magic defence item (rune of spell-eating or sth similar) instead of wyrm slayer rocket (I fired it around 2 times during the whole tournament, but hey, I killed a kin-eater with it :P ) The rest of the list was just fine.

      ---

      Other feedback:

      This year, the gap between the best tier army and the worst was as close as possible, compared to other years. Almost all of the armies were viable one way or another. I want to conguragulate the rule committee for this :) Still, some armies were invariably better than others:

      The good tier (nerf plox):
      DL: Scourge and Weaver are just bonkers. But they are getting a complete rework soon, so we are not so worried about the balance.
      UD: Shabti archers are just too good for their points. Almost everyone got 16 except us (we just didn't see it was that strong). They fight reasonably well with rending banner, and they can shoot... Meh...

      The right tier (don't touch):
      Vampire: EXCELLENT internal balance, so many viable builds. Not so overpowered either compared to other armies. Vampire spawn needs a little nerf though (maybe ld7? or slight point change?)
      EoS: Excellent army but we personally feel like Knight builds still need a little buff. Also, why not 2x Steam tank builds? With some other restrictions, of course?
      Lizard: Excellent army with different playstyles (tanky like we did, with 3 taurasaur + temple guard, or guerilla-msu like most players did, or with cowboys, Alpha carnasaur, etc). Good internal balance (many different builds) and external balance (not overpowered against other armies).
      ID: Again, good internal-external balance. Many different viable builds. I was incredibly suprised when 25 man disciple of lurgar slaugthered my slayers in 1 turn (they have agility of 3? SAY THAT AGAIN??!) :)
      BH: On paper, they are not that good. On the battlefield, they can win very tough matchups in very bloody manner. Very cool core fighting blocks. I think some underused units (minatours, razortusk chariots for instance) can still be buffed, they don't have such good internal balance.
      Ork: They are fine. So many viable builds and tricks (as expected of goblins). Nice core fighting blocks. Great green idol feels like a bit too good to us (ultra tanky - too cheap for its price).
      Dwarf: They got no magic. They got no magic. They got no magic :(((( Fufufufu... :( Magic is too stronk. Maybe they need some better magic defence, perhaps?? But they have the best MSU :)
      WodG: Very nice army with lots of cool builds. Chosen / Chosen Knights are insane :) Not so good internal balance, though (their monsters, except Fallen Ones, are not good at all). Almost all their viable builds include some sort of chosen/chosen knight spam.
      Wood Elves - High Elves: Many viable builds, but I still feel like HBE don't have such nice internal balance (needs buff on some units, like phoenix guard, lion chariot, frost phoneix, etc). Most of their builds are suffering from "folds the pyro" problem:

      *The "folds to pyro" problem in ETC:
      Some builds (mostly elves) have this problem. A single wizard with pyro just slaugthers some builds on his own. I don't think this is a problem about the game balance (because pyro is perfectly balanced). I think this problem is because people tend to build very one sided armies when coming to ETC, and they tend to ignore the vulnerability to pyro. I don't think this is an issue which needs addressing, but I just thought it was worth mentioning.

      The bad tier (buff plux):
      - KoE: Their units are fine, but their characters can use a little buff in my personal opinion. They fold against most tough builds.
      - DE: If it wasn't for their raptor chariot, they would be the worst army ever. Raptor chariot is insane for its point. Altar is not 0-1, but more like 1-1 (nobody would make a list without one). As a result, their internal balance is not good. Most of the lists were one sided (raptor chariot spam + altar + lord on raptor chariot + stuff). They have the coolest core fighter block, though nobody used them (spears with nabh).
      - Ogre: The army is fine, actually. But all of their core units were nerfed to oblivion (3x bruiser, tribestar, etc). Needs MUCH better cores. Other units are just fine (kin eater, bombardier, rock auroch, tusker cav etc, they are all extremely viable).
    • New

      adatopoulos wrote:

      The bad tier (buff plux):
      - KoE: Their units are fine, but their characters can use a little buff in my personal opinion. They fold against most tough builds.
      Can you elaborate a little bit here :)
      I remember last year you were quite big on KoE
      What happend and what would you change?
      Too close to home; too lightly guarded!

    • New

      Klexe wrote:

      adatopoulos wrote:

      The bad tier (buff plux):
      - KoE: Their units are fine, but their characters can use a little buff in my personal opinion. They fold against most tough builds.
      Can you elaborate a little bit here :) I remember last year you were quite big on KoE
      What happend and what would you change?
      What happened is that the last year's lord of insanity (reroll armor, stubborn vs T5/S5, 1+ reroll armor, 5++, immune to lethal, multiple wound vs monsters) who could slay gods and tank deathstars at the same time got basically transformed into a chicken, for more points cost :)

      This is a world where even HBE has reasonably viable cowboys (although I personally hate them because they are T3, people tend to use them quite a lot), KoE's characters cannot pull their weight in terms of cost efficiency.

      If you try to kit your characters up, you end up with ridiculously 500+ points overcosted character who can realistically kill/tank nothing. If you leave them cheap, you end up paying a lot of tax in form of General/BSB (and you have to, because your knights have low leadership otherwise).

      Oh and also BSB cannot stay in back rank anymore, so you have to give him defensive items, which means MOAR tax... :(

      Thus I'd recommend:

      A) Giving damsel a LD10 item which costs around 70 points (downside is that you cannot take any paladins/dukes in your army, for example). Keeping her in a KoTR unit with Banner of Discipline and taking Divination means you will have reasonably good LD and don't have to pay character tax and take more meat instead. This will make KoE more colorful, with much different sorts of builds. I don't think this will break the game (there are many armies who are not required to take BSB/general tax, and can reasonably live with a single wizard general, and they are not breaking the game).
      B) Buffing characters quite a bit. I'm not talking about the lord like last year's who could pvp dragon and kill it and/or tank vampire lord/his unit and live to tell the tale for only 480 pts. But the current builds are just not viable in terms of cost/efficiency from my point of view.
      C) Both (much better option).

      Oh and BTW, almost all of the units are very well balanced and viable.
    • New

      KoE/ The characters seem to be very RPS, so sometimes they're amazing and sometimes they're useless. Having been on the receiving end of 'KoE lord is amazing', you can't just improve them, you need to bring both extremes towards each other.

      UD/ I don't understand why everyone seems to think Shabti archers are that amazing. I really don't. I'd far rather have regular shabti.
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ

    • New

      Fun fact @adatopoulos
      KoE won't get a Damsel general option.
      I asked for that before many many times as we are currently THE ONLY army who can not play an Ld 9+ mage General all others can( with bound spells even dwarfs and EoS)

      You want to know the reason?

      Because the unit entry is female.


      Yep no joke....


      The answer was :

      "no knight would follow a female leader"

      Holy maccarioni I was pissed and I am pissed just thinking about it again
      Too close to home; too lightly guarded!

    • New

      Klexe wrote:

      Fun fact @adatopoulos
      KoE won't get a Damsel general option.
      I asked for that before many many times as we are currently THE ONLY army who can not play an Ld 9+ mage General all others can( with bound spells even dwarfs and EoS)

      You want to know the reason?

      Because the unit entry is female.


      Yep no joke....


      The answer was :

      "no knight would follow a female leader"

      Holy maccarioni I was pissed and I am pissed just thinking about it again
      My KoE force has multiple female knights scattered around and one is a character (so can be my general).

      So whoever made that statement has to deal with it :)

      Also I can easily think of a strong historical example of this happening...
    • New

      Tyranno wrote:

      Klexe wrote:

      Fun fact @adatopoulos
      KoE won't get a Damsel general option.
      I asked for that before many many times as we are currently THE ONLY army who can not play an Ld 9+ mage General all others can( with bound spells even dwarfs and EoS)

      You want to know the reason?

      Because the unit entry is female.


      Yep no joke....


      The answer was :

      "no knight would follow a female leader"

      Holy maccarioni I was pissed and I am pissed just thinking about it again
      My KoE force has multiple female knights scattered around and one is a character (so can be my general).
      So whoever made that statement has to deal with it :)

      Also I can easily think of a strong historical example of this happening...
      Oh really..... you can? Like i dont know.... some girl born as peasant leading an army in old times? An army with fleur-de-lis?? I would NEVER ever find a good example for that ..... /s :D
      Too close to home; too lightly guarded!

    • New

      Klexe wrote:

      Fun fact @adatopoulos
      KoE won't get a Damsel general option.
      I asked for that before many many times as we are currently THE ONLY army who can not play an Ld 9+ mage General all others can( with bound spells even dwarfs and EoS)

      You want to know the reason?

      Because the unit entry is female.


      Yep no joke....


      The answer was :

      "no knight would follow a female leader"

      Holy maccarioni I was pissed and I am pissed just thinking about it again
      ?( X( :cursing: <X

      That's seriously messed up.

      And since the whole dang faction worships a lady and the damsels are the only clergy, it doesn't even make sense in-world.
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ

    • New

      Thanks for your insight! That list sounds fun, I thought it was a mistake at first, but glad that it wasn't! I might try it just for fun, since I'm not a good player.

      Also, about the armies tier, I didn't know that OK were considered in a bad spot. My friends always say they are OP, maybe it is because we are not that good and OK is too much of a "in your face" army?

      Post by Alzam ().

      This post was deleted by the author themselves: Probably off-topic ().
    • New

      Klexe wrote:

      You want to know the reason?

      Because the unit entry is female.
      Whose reason was that? Because it was not mine.

      Executive Board

      Head of Background Team


      "It is not power, or title, or name which makes a hero. It is what you do with those things. Any person may prove their worth." "Even the peasants?" "Now lad, let's not be daft!"
    • New

      Scottish Knight wrote:

      Klexe wrote:

      You want to know the reason?

      Because the unit entry is female.
      Whose reason was that? Because it was not mine.
      Not here. Already bringing it up internally.
      Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

      Legal

      Playtester

      Chariot Command HQ

    • New

      And not just Equitaine:


      ‘‘If you won’t stop bothering me, then fine... Sonnsthal Sonnstahl is a land in which women often takea leading role. They inherit on equal footing with men, unlike most civilisations. Together with theprominence of their patron deity, this ensures that in all parts of their nation, women can rise to thehighest echelons”.The Sage also told me that in the military, women are not as numerous as their male counterparts.Yet due to their enhanced status, they can rise more swiftly according to their abilities. Thusit is not an uncommon sight to witness a Sonnstahler army led by a female Marshall, or an investigationled by a female Inquisitor.“Ask not a noble of the Kingdom if Sunna is the same ‘Lady’ that the Kingdom of Equitaine worship!,lest your head be parted from your shoulders!” was the Sage’s reply to one of my questions.Equitaine and Sonnstahl are two neighbouring nations, yet very much distinct. One is aKingdom, led by Henry the Young. While his father might have let such an insult pass, the son isa very different prospect. He has reignited the Equitan urge to quest the world in the name of theirLady. The other is an Empire, commanded by an Emperor currently drawn from the family Rothmeyer,with their own expansionist agenda, establishing colonies across the Great Ocean.The Lady certainly has a distinct and unique form of worship, differing from the organisedChurch of Sunna. There are some who claim Sunna was a representation of the Lady given flesh,others that the Lady is simply an alternative name given to Sunna by a neighbouring nation. “Tothe devout of either, such commingling may be taken as blasphemy - and those followers are not slowto express their displeasure in very pointed fashion.”
      Though "Sonnstahl is a land in which women take a leading role" does imply that there are lands where that isn't the case.
      Vote Clodius Commodus Catilina for Tyrant.
      Free grain - no taxes - Avras reconquered - two slaves for every Rat - Triumphs daily - 24/7 chariot racing - Twice the Tribunes - a surface Chicken in every pot

      True Heirs of Avras: Vermin Swarm Auxillary Army books
    • New

      Klexe wrote:

      Tyranno wrote:

      Klexe wrote:

      Fun fact @adatopoulos
      KoE won't get a Damsel general option.
      I asked for that before many many times as we are currently THE ONLY army who can not play an Ld 9+ mage General all others can( with bound spells even dwarfs and EoS)

      You want to know the reason?

      Because the unit entry is female.


      Yep no joke....


      The answer was :

      "no knight would follow a female leader"

      Holy maccarioni I was pissed and I am pissed just thinking about it again
      My KoE force has multiple female knights scattered around and one is a character (so can be my general).So whoever made that statement has to deal with it :)

      Also I can easily think of a strong historical example of this happening...
      Oh really..... you can? Like i dont know.... some girl born as peasant leading an army in old times? An army with fleur-de-lis?? I would NEVER ever find a good example for that ..... /s :D
      Nicola De La Haye led the defence of Lincoln castle during both Baron's Wars, what a load of tripe. Just sounds like "you can't have a mage general because.........reasons"
    • New

      And read into some of the female catholic saints at some point. Saint Margareth of Antioch was swallowed by a dragon and fought her way out only with the cross around her neck. Or if you want something a bit more historical sounding, Saint Olga of Kiev. 10th century, Queen Regent of the Kievan Rus, had 5000 enemies killed at a feast, had a city burned down by tying burning sulphur to pigeons and spent years and years at war.
      Vote Clodius Commodus Catilina for Tyrant.
      Free grain - no taxes - Avras reconquered - two slaves for every Rat - Triumphs daily - 24/7 chariot racing - Twice the Tribunes - a surface Chicken in every pot

      True Heirs of Avras: Vermin Swarm Auxillary Army books
    • New

      Squirrelloid wrote:

      Scottish Knight wrote:

      Klexe wrote:

      You want to know the reason?

      Because the unit entry is female.
      Whose reason was that? Because it was not mine.
      Not here. Already bringing it up internally.
      I read the original quote and I thought it must be a miscommunication and was going to tag @Scottish Knight to confirm and clarify, so I'm glad to see he doesn't sanction that view as Head of Background. It was bad enough that VC Lahmia only get distracting when clad in no or light armour ( :/ :/ :/ ), but to explicitly build that background into rules as described would be a real rot at the core value of the game. So please post the conclusion of the internal investigation publically so that we can all see that this claim is not true. I don't have an immediate view on wizard generals or not for KoE, but that rationale is disgusting <X .
      Join us on Ulthuan.net