Pinned Ask Smith! (Tactics discussion)

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  • Thanks for the feedback, guys!
    @DanT I would love for this to have its own "place", but I wouldn't want it to be hidden away in some subforum's subforum.
    So far the problem I've seen with visibility is that it competes with the other General discussion threads ("is this game dying?" "37 reasons why the RT should quit" "my game is better than yours" for the most part :D ). These threads generate more replies than a tactics thread, which may lead to people not finding this in the first place.

    Until a better solution is found, here's what I did:

    SmithF wrote:

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    INDEX:

    Quiz 1: Storming faster foes using an infantry based army (OnG vs HBE)
    Quiz 2: Pushing with slow combat army (OnG vs SA)
    Quiz 3: Countering the strategy in quiz 1 (HBE vs OnG)
    Quiz 4: Cornered units: what to do. (HBE vs UD)
    Quiz 5: Storming the Castle (DE vs EoS) - SOLUTION

    How does that look? I'll keep updating the first post with links to the quizzes and the replies. Usually, all relevant discussion happens some posts before that.
  • Hey Pascal!

    It's your mate from a cross-border taxi ride with Tom Cruise's best friend :D

    First let me compliment you for the topic, I find it very interesting and constructive... bravo!

    Now I would like to present a problem that was posed already... what if you are the defendant of the castle and some bad bad bad tanned elf is trying to attack you?

    We could take the same battle or the one from your latest report vs EoS...

    See you in Ath at the end of the month
  • New

    Here is my challenge for @SmithF

    Write up a WotDG MMU barbarian footslogger core (the only restriction) list and explain how to play it properly against an army of your choice.

    I've tried and failed numerous times. The closest I've managed was FLU bus with Relentless Banner.
    <3 Stepping down to focus on the latest addition to the family! Three kids means we now form a complete rank! <3

    The post was edited 1 time, last by There Is No Spoon ().

  • New

    There Is No Spoon wrote:

    Write up an WotDG MMU barbarian footslogger core (the only restriction) list and explain how to play it properly against an army of your choice.

    I've tried and failed numerous times. The closest I've managed was FLU bus with Relentless Banner.

    For those interested I have started a new thread in the WDG list-building forum:
    Footslogging Barbarian List Discussion

    But lets keep this thread for tactics discussion instead!


    falanor wrote:

    Hey Pascal!

    It's your mate from a cross-border taxi ride with Tom Cruise's best friend :D

    First let me compliment you for the topic, I find it very interesting and constructive... bravo!

    Now I would like to present a problem that was posed already... what if you are the defendant of the castle and some bad bad bad tanned elf is trying to attack you?

    We could take the same battle or the one from your latest report vs EoS...

    See you in Ath at the end of the month
    Hey Falanor! Hahaha, what a night that was. Although your description of it makes it sound even more cool and 007-esque. :)

    I'll get to the problem you propose shorty, but in the meantime I had a request from @Arthur regarding a game he recently played against Daemonic Legions.

    So here it is:



    HBE List:
    Display Spoiler
    HEROES:
    Mage Master (Cosmology), Asfad Scholar, Book of Meladys
    MoCT BSB, Book of Arcane Power, GW, HA

    CORE:
    2 x 22 Citizen Spears, Full Command, War Banner of Ryma
    20 Citizen Spears, Full Command, Rending Banner

    SPECIAL:
    23 Flame Wardens, Full Command, Navigator's Standard
    2 x 1 Eagle
    2 x 5 Knights of Ryma
    2 x 1 Reaver Chariot

    QUEEN'S BOWS:
    16 Queensguard, Standard, Musician, Banner of Becalming


    DL list:
    Display Spoiler

    HEROES:Weaver of Change, Aether Wand, Weaver's Eye, Divination magic
    Daemon Prince of Change, Eternal Sword, Wings, Iron Hide

    CORE:
    10 Horrors, Champion, Musician
    28 Slaughterers, Full Command, Rending Banner

    SPECIAL:
    5 Furies
    4 Crushers, Full Command
    5 Mounted Sirens
    10 Mounted Sirens, Full Command

    NB: there might be some items missing in the Daemonic Legions list!

    Spells: Cosmo mage has Favor of Meladys, Ice and Fire, Perception of Strength and Touch the Heart (?), MoCT has Quicksilver Lash, Beast Awakens and Raven's Wing. The Daemon Prince has Spectral Blades, the Weaver of Change has the Hereditary, Scrying, Stars Align and Unerring Strike.

    Arthur has given me a brief description of what's happening, this is right after the daemon player's first turn:

    Arthur wrote:

    I deployed as seen in the picture. That deployment is suboptimal and can definitely be critiqued in a variety of ways, but I partially wanted to try to what degree my army could castle in a complex match-up in order to just deny the game: the scenario was flags, so it was the perfect time to try it out, as he has a really hard time killing entire scoring units from long range.


    What makes this match-up tremendously complicated is of course the two fliers. One Change DP with +1A/S/AP, 2+ as, fly; and the Weaver with Divination, Aether Wand, and reroll a failed ward save. I got cosmo Master and MoCT, and some bows, so no real way to limit their long range damage. I also have no units that can hold them for very long in cc, as even the FW die to the two fliers with divine attacks.


    My pretty complicated question then is, how do you minimize the damage of big flying badasses that you cannot really deal with from distance or in cc?

    What I suggest is that we take this from the moment the picture was taken, instead of going all the way back to deployment and magic selection!

    So, thoughts?

    The post was edited 2 times, last by SmithF ().

  • New

    I wanted to ask the general opinion on a situation I came across last game. Due to some chaffing action and a failed charge a 35 vermin guard VS unit with killy general (7 attacks S5 Ag 7) inside got out in the open.
    It got charged by three enemy units (a dreadmill, a vermin demon and a unit of 20 plague priests, all around 10 inches away). It took me a while to decide what to do here and I would like to ask the general opinion. Once you are in this situation (through great playing by my opponent and some bad luck on my side) what would you do?
    1_ would you run away hoping to outrun the charging units (distance is 10 inches from units), so with a 2d6 +1 inches there is a chance that you outrun them but is very risky.

    2- would you hold as charge reaction and resign to lose the unit but at least you can give a bloody nose to the enemy?

    This situation stuck with me because there is no ideal solution once you are in that situation but I would like to hear your thoughts.
    Thanks oh sages of 9th Age wisdom!
  • New

    Merinus wrote:

    I wanted to ask the general opinion on a situation I came across last game. Due to some chaffing action and a failed charge a 35 vermin guard VS unit with killy general (7 attacks S5 Ag 7) inside got out in the open.
    It got charged by three enemy units (a dreadmill, a vermin demon and a unit of 20 plague priests, all around 10 inches away). It took me a while to decide what to do here and I would like to ask the general opinion. Once you are in this situation (through great playing by my opponent and some bad luck on my side) what would you do?
    1_ would you run away hoping to outrun the charging units (distance is 10 inches from units), so with a 2d6 +1 inches there is a chance that you outrun them but is very risky.

    2- would you hold as charge reaction and resign to lose the unit but at least you can give a bloody nose to the enemy?

    This situation stuck with me because there is no ideal solution once you are in that situation but I would like to hear your thoughts.
    Thanks oh sages of 9th Age wisdom!

    I'm not much of a sage, but the following thoughts occur to me:

    #1: Why did you not have anything to rescue them with? Putting a unit behind the Vermin Guard makes the flee much safer, as they will flee all the way through the other unit if they touch it and thus you can guarantee that if they roll high enough they will get away.

    #2: 18" is a pretty long charge. The Priests will fail that, the Dreadmill needs a 10, as does the VD.

    So you get away if your opponent doesn't manage to roll 2 points higher than you on two maximised dice than you roll on two dice. That's... I think in their favour thanks to the second roll, but not miles away.

    #3: How is the rest of the game (and event) going for you? If you're getting pasted to the point that even if they run away and rally you'll still lose, that's different from you being ahead otherwise... what are you aiming for here? Heck, what TURN is it, and where are the objectives? If this is happening early there's a lot more time to rally and return, if it's turn 5 then if they get away they probably get away...


    #4: Do the infantry have a Champion? Heck, they're 10" away you say? Okay, so here's one possible outcome - the Dreadmill and VD charge you... and if the Plague Brotherhood roll poorly (not that unlikely), you have reasonable odds. Challenge the VD with a Champ, chop the Dreadmill with your boss (or if you think he can take the VD, challenge with your boss... I don't like his odds unless he has a ward and even then it's iffy, but i don't know your build) and maybe you win this fight. And then it's your turn, and you have a chance to try to fix things.


    Hrm. Actually this seems more and more winnable, really, assuming it's all coming head-on, you're 5 wide, and your boss is in the middle of the unit (so the VD and Dreadmill can't end up in base contact if the PB make the charge) - your boss and 14 VG attacks should chop up about 7 PB. The incoming pain'll hurt, but you have a 5+ AS vs. the PB so they should get 5 kills, VD should get 5, dreadmill gets 4... you hold on steadfast, you've hopefully chopped the PB Champion with your Champ, you challenge the VD, you chop the PB for another 7 (down to ~5 models), they don't have hatred, the impact hits are gone and the VD is now capped at 4 kills for CR... I think you actually *win* round two.


    tl;dr: consider everything. If this IS a trousers down moment, you probably had some chances to fix that earlier.

    Background Team

  • New

    SmithF wrote:

    I had a request from @Arthur regarding a game he recently played against Daemonic Legions

    So here it is:



    HBE List:
    Display Spoiler
    HEROES:
    Mage Master (Cosmology), Asfad Scholar, Book of Meladys
    MoCT BSB, Book of Arcane Power, GW, HA

    CORE:
    2 x 22 Citizen Spears, Full Command, War Banner of Ryma
    20 Citizen Spears, Full Command, Rending Banner

    SPECIAL:
    23 Flame Wardens, Full Command, Navigator's Standard
    2 x 1 Eagle
    2 x 5 Knights of Ryma
    2 x 1 Reaver Chariot

    QUEEN'S BOWS:
    16 Queensguard, Standard, Musician, Banner of Becalming


    DL list:
    Display Spoiler

    HEROES:Weaver of Change, Aether Wand, Weaver's Eye, Divination magic
    Daemon Prince of Change, Eternal Sword, Wings, Iron Hide

    CORE:
    10 Horrors, Champion, Musician
    28 Slaughterers, Full Command, Rending Banner

    SPECIAL:
    5 Furies
    4 Crushers, Full Command
    5 Mounted Sirens
    10 Mounted Sirens, Full Command

    NB: there might be some items missing in the Daemonic Legions list!

    Spells: Cosmo mage has Favor of Meladys, Ice and Fire, Perception of Strength and Touch the Heart (?), MoCT has Quicksilver Lash, Beast Awakens and Raven's Wing. The Daemon Prince has Spectral Blades, the Weaver of Change has the Hereditary, Scrying, Stars Align and Unerring Strike.

    Arthur has given me a brief description of what's happening, this is right after the daemon player's first turn:

    Arthur wrote:

    I deployed as seen in the picture. That deployment is suboptimal and can definitely be critiqued in a variety of ways, but I partially wanted to try to what degree my army could castle in a complex match-up in order to just deny the game: the scenario was flags, so it was the perfect time to try it out, as he has a really hard time killing entire scoring units from long range.


    What makes this match-up tremendously complicated is of course the two fliers. One Change DP with +1A/S/AP, 2+ as, fly; and the Weaver with Divination, Aether Wand, and reroll a failed ward save. I got cosmo Master and MoCT, and some bows, so no real way to limit their long range damage. I also have no units that can hold them for very long in cc, as even the FW die to the two fliers with divine attacks.


    My pretty complicated question then is, how do you minimize the damage of big flying badasses that you cannot really deal with from distance or in cc?
    What I suggest is that we take this from the moment the picture was taken, instead of going all the way back to deployment and magic selection!

    So, thoughts

    @Elo you played this game - do you have views and contributions?

    Personally I did dismiss the east flank chariot play as inexperienced, and would very much have expected the HBE to not cluster on their baseline - as they will run out of space very quickly against an enemy this fast - and they will have no space to retreat into.

    To quote a far supreme general to myself - deploy better.
    Why not hold elections for key seats? Oh! And direction of the game - that would also be hella cool :)

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • New

    Hello,the Sirens have Rending banner to rest of the list is right.

    Bernie=Weaver and Bert= Daemon Prince i played now around 1 year the rest of the list i change from time to time.The both Flyer are Hard to Handle normal Redirecting works not.The Prince comes with 6 Attacks,S7+ap4,Divine or Daemonic Blaze so he is a little Courtesan of Lust but much Cheaper.When you have the Toys against Daemons,Divination,Cannons,Bolthrower you can handle him,but without this its hard to handle this guy.The other thing is Bernie with Divination Support the Bert and with that buffs the guy is Amazing,Weaver +2 to cast so you cast each buff from Divination with a 5+ only the Stars on a 6+ same for the Hereditary spell on 5+.Also the Bert is Stubborn,and with Atri from Divination and Ld 9 the Prince stay in all Combats.With the list from Arthur you can Bind him, and give him to Eat not more or less maybe with some buffs the Spears or Flame Wardens can do well against him or Bernie.

    Last but not least i hope all can read my bad english:D.

    Cheers
    Elo
    German's Dream of all Wifes 2015!,German's Best Painted Body 2014!,German's All in 1 Wonder 2013!
  • New

    Thanks @WhammeWhamme! I agree getting myself on that situation was not one of my brightest moments.
    I actually decided to run because I had a unit within 12' with the bsb inside. They fled outside the charges and I thought I could recover... Until they failed the rally test rerrollable (Dis7) and they ran out of the table. It stuck with me as a what if moment and I wanted to see what would go through people's minds as well when confronted with that situation.
    Thanks!
  • New

    There seems to be a DL chariot of sorts in the forest...
    Really hard place, flag scenario are usually not about cornering and waiting out 6 turns especially when you don't have the ranged threat nvm.
    1. I'd charge the conga horses with spears, they'll cause further issues when DL army closes in.
    2. Shuffle back spears next to the house and reform/move Knights in front of them to exploit potential openings when chaff is cleared.
    3. I hate wasting chaff early game but I doubt they'll have any use post t3 might as well make the most of their 18" fly.
    4. Assuming crushers are already at a charge range they'll need to be chaffed to allow KoR to get the charge following turn.
    5. Second eagle could be used in conjunction with far KoR unit to protect them from chariot. The KoR will need to swing in to get a flank view. If not possible it'll probably a long staring contest on that flank.
    6. Two Reaver chariots will play hide and seek with the sirens. Position to charge in a way that you also threaten them from getting too close to back lines.
    7. Magic, buff spears and wardens then MM sirens on the hill.
    8. Shooting, sirens on the hill.
    This could at least remove the feeling of being trapped t2. DL fliers will be a pain but doubt they'll be eager to charge alone knowing a counter flank charge is ready.

    Long goal is to make a break with KoR (ideally charge chosen Knights break and overrun to their back lines) and start haressing the DL infantry with them. Unfortunately there's nothing to hold down crusher + DP combo charge...
  • New

    My Models is a bit Special yes in the Wood is a Blood Charriot:-),he zone the left flank to stop the Princes comes out on the left side from house.The Sirens Right side i guess in turn 2 or 3 clear the Queens guard the Complete unit,before i Clear with sirens 1 Chariot.So the Siren guys are out from the game,the Slaughterer pushes then over the Right Flank and i give Arthur a nice charge with the right spears.But He Faild him and i can counter with the Slaughterer.
    German's Dream of all Wifes 2015!,German's Best Painted Body 2014!,German's All in 1 Wonder 2013!
  • New

    To be called inexperienced by the great @Herminard, Savage Sage of the Norse and ETC vagabond? ;( Be still, my bleeding beating heart, be still.

    On a more serious note, as the player using the HBE army:

    Deployment can definitely be argued with, but I'd dispute the premise that it's bad or what cost me the game. It's definitely not optimal even when going for this deployment style, as the right Ryma Knights should have been deployed a little bit more forward, and the left chariot should have been angled a little bit more to avoid the Sirens moving out of line of sight (I actually thought they couldn't when I deployed this way, but alas, my measuring skills had abandoned me), but apart from that, it's a fine deployment that gives me some substantial advantages and some good match-ups, many of which were already pointed out by @matrim.

    - Apart from the angling, I'm in fact very happy with the chariots on the right. They forced the sirens into a turn-1-position where they would only have an impact on the battle at the earliest in turn 3, giving me plenty of time to deal with them. I in fact ignored them for my entire turn 2, killing them with shooting and magic when they started becoming a threat in turn 3.

    - While doing that, the chariots also zone the Slaughterers pretty effectively. The Ryma Spears charging the Slaughterers would be a bloodbath on both sides, but getting in one extra chariot means I kill them in two turns while keeping most spears alive (maximization shenanigans would allow me to put only 4 Slaughterers in B2B with the spears).

    - the very deep deployment basically prevented the Horrors from casting any spell all game. They were never in range to cast anything meaningful, rendering 2 out of the 3 magic missiles of the daemons redundant. This was very important, as all of them can easily cripple my main combat units with a few good rolls.

    - the Dragon Princes on the left can easily circle out of the corner into a pincer move with the support of the eagles. They did so, killing the Crushers in turn 3 or 4.

    - my plan was to do the same on the right, but alas, while the Reaver chariot made its 14' charge, the Ryma Spears failed there 11' or 12' charge (adv 6 on the charge). In the end, this was probably what cost me the game. I was greedy, and should have used one more turn of redirection with the other chariot before charging in safely with both the spears and the chariot. It was bad luck that it failed, but it wasn't necessary to expose myself to this bad luck.

    - two other mistakes were that in turn 2, I angled the right spearmen in such a way that the Weaver could have flown out of its line of sight. It didn't, but that would have substantially reinforced the collapsing right Daemon flank. Secondly, I moved the eagles behind the house badly, denying the right Ryma knight the opportunity to flee as I had planned (I had also planned to move them to a better spot with Raven's Wing, but forgot to cast it :thumbup: ).

    - the idea of the clustering of spears and FW in the centre, was to put a maximized amount of attacks onto the two big fliers. Deploying this way basically denied them their huge maneuverability advantage, as there was no place where they could attack without facing the bulk of my forces. It worked partially in the end, as the massive amount of attacks from the spearmen combined with some combat buffs claimed the Daemon Prince, but I underestimated how fast the Daemon would go through the FW with divine attacks. They put three or four wounds onto the big thing only, before breaking on a 9-rerollable and guiding the Daemon together with the Slaughterers on the right into my bunker, ending the game (luckily, as I had to go, work was catching up with me :P)

    In the end, my train of thought was that to move more aggressively would have allowed the Daemon flyers to pick off my units one-by-one. In this deployment, I had maximized support, while still being able to push my advantage hard on the flanks. As I wrote to @SmithF and companions on our team forum: I basically think castling in a game like this is a good strategy to deny a player with a similar skill level to yours a good match-up. A very good player will crack open such a castle, as @Elo did in highly skillful fashion, but in a wider and more aggressive deployment, he will be able to use his uberdangerous flying monsters even more effectively. I'd be tempted to play the same way again next time - the deployment basically forced my opponent to completely dictate the terms of engagement if he wanted his victory, putting the burden of not-making-errors on him, while giving me plenty of options on the flanks if he does decide to press against the overloaded centre. I think I came pretty close - I don't think I was further than rolling more than 5 with the spears or less than 9 with the FW away. The castle basically makes it harder for the Daemons to press their very substantial match-up advantage. Of course, the DP can just flat-out deny the game, making it a 10-10, but that's a result I'm very pleased with in this match-up.

    Yet despite my overly stubborn and very faux-pro belief in my own battle plan, I'd be delighted to hear about other ways in which people deal with flying badasses when rocking an army of footsloggers! :)

    Oh, and once more thanks for one of the best teaching games I've played in months, Elo! :thumbsup: