Pinned Ask Smith! (Tactics discussion)

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The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

  • Ask Smith! (Tactics discussion)

    Greetings, fellow generals!

    Allow me to present this idea of a thread/discussion to you: the ask Smith (and friends!) tactics discussion thread!

    What is it all about?
    I believe that while part of being successful in the game is a) building a good list and b) deploying in a good manner, there is a third and perhaps far more important part to it: making the right decisions at the right time. Even if you're faced with a very dire situation, there's always an optimal way to handle it, and this may save you the battle from time to time.

    What I've found out when writing battle reports is that looking back at certain difficult situations and analyzing them can help one progress as a general and avoid making the same mistakes.

    So what I'm suggesting is to discuss our failures rather than our successes! And learn from them!

    Here is the format I'm thinking about: this could be a monthly or weekly "column" that I could present on my blog, or it could just be a thread where we all discuss a couple of difficult situations per week. It would require input from the readership in two ways:
    1) I need your battle "snapshots" right before the crucial moment, along with a short explanation of the armies themselves and what has preceded this moment as well as active effects (spells/fleeing units/ ongoing combats and so on).
    2) I need your input on the tactical decisions themselves

    In a way, this can be summarized as: "how would you handle this situation?"

    Disclaimer: I am in no way the holder of the ultimate truth, but I have sufficient experience with various armies in a tournament setting to be able to formulate cohesive battle plans in such situations. While I am in no way an expert in list making, I pride myself in being able to get my army out of tough situations. So this could be fun!

    So what do you think? Is this something that would interest people?

    To get the ball rolling, I summon some of the friends that I expect to help me in this!
    @Herminard @PrinceCharming @IHDarklord @ArchangelusM @Razon

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    How this works:
    Forum members can PM me or post their questions/snapshots giving the following info:
    - 1 or 2 pictures of the situation.
    - Secondary objective
    - Explication of the situation in hand and why they found it challenging. How much information you want to give depends on you: it can go as far as noting the distances between units for charges, but it can be more vague too (less work for you)!
    - Army lists, spells available and spell effects currently in play

    My job will be double:
    1) Present the question in a standardized manner in this thread, then coordinate the discussion and collect opinions from the generals that I've tagged and the readers of the thread.
    2) Curate the responses into an article, to be presented in a Blog post.

    I plan on keeping this thread for day-to-day discussion, as well as for community comments on each situation. I'll try linking to the first page of the thread with the weekly tactical situation.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    INDEX:

    Quiz 1: Storming faster foes using an infantry based army (OnG vs HBE)
    Quiz 2: Pushing with slow combat army (OnG vs SA)
    Quiz 3: Countering the strategy in quiz 1 (HBE vs OnG)
    Quiz 4: Cornered units: what to do. (HBE vs UD)
    Quiz 5: Storming the Castle (DE vs EoS) - SOLUTION

    The post was edited 5 times, last by SmithF: Index updated! ().

  • Whooooo boy.

    :D

    So, do you want us marked ones to give you situations or to provide tactical decisions to the situations posted by the readers of your blog?

    If it is the first I will have to ponder on that a bit. XD

    If second, I would even propose an addition to your format: make each of us marked ones provide input to you via PM so that we do not read each others decisions in regards to tactical situation presented to see how and where our thoughts differ and by that make a discussion among the rest of the readers to see their thoughts and whose solution is better or even provide new solutions to the problem and then also try to discsrn if the differences are in the domain of good decision/bad deciaion or in the domain of "both are viable but depend on your personal playstyle/character."

    That way we can really involve the community and also ourselves a bit more to make us all learn more about the game that we like so much. :)
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

    Draecarion, may the Lord grant eternal peace to your soul, my Friend!
  • Love this idea - I'd be happy to provide some snap shots. I have my first full tournament in just over a week where I plan to do battle reports, so I should be able to produce some moments of value with photos and lists to add documentation.
    You can see my you tube battle reports here
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=e76ivZdXX9s&t=79s

    Or follow me on Facebook here
    facebook.com/Casamarnz/#
  • Cool thread!

    I don't have a snapshot, but I do have a question on which I would love some insight.

    I play O&G and most of the time a heavy close combat oriënted list. I however often struggle to decide how to get close enough to my opponent to get into melee. Often I want to put myself in a situation where I can charge my opponent, however when I can charge him he can also charge me.

    How do I decide wether to put my unit, lets say 4" movement eadbashers, in position to get into combat. Do I just offer my opponent to charge me and hope to last a round or do I try to get the charge on him?

    Hope my question makes sense!

    Cheers
    Baldin
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • Baldin wrote:

    Cool thread!

    I don't have a snapshot, but I do have a question on which I would love some insight.

    I play O&G and most of the time a heavy close combat oriënted list. I however often struggle to decide how to get close enough to my opponent to get into melee. Often I want to put myself in a situation where I can charge my opponent, however when I can charge him he can also charge me.

    How do I decide wether to put my unit, lets say 4" movement eadbashers, in position to get into combat. Do I just offer my opponent to charge me and hope to last a round or do I try to get the charge on him?

    Hope my question makes sense!

    Cheers
    Baldin

    Yes! Good! This is a very good example for the situation I challenged Pascal to do a piece on for the ninth scroll. I called it "Strategy&Tactics for assaulting the standoff".

    Can you provide us with a sample list and situation?
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Herminard ().

  • Baldin wrote:

    Cool thread!

    I don't have a snapshot, but I do have a question on which I would love some insight.

    I play O&G and most of the time a heavy close combat oriënted list. I however often struggle to decide how to get close enough to my opponent to get into melee. Often I want to put myself in a situation where I can charge my opponent, however when I can charge him he can also charge me.

    How do I decide wether to put my unit, lets say 4" movement eadbashers, in position to get into combat. Do I just offer my opponent to charge me and hope to last a round or do I try to get the charge on him?

    Hope my question makes sense!

    Cheers
    Baldin
    I would also like to get some input on this! Played a slow CC O&G list last weekend and got thrashed :orcblush:
  • Cool @aus_lo - do you have a sample list and situation?
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • I think this is a greeat idea; it's always cool to read about tactics others employ. But it's even more cool to be able to participate in talking about them. Finally, it's pure gold to be able to ask questions and get answers to real situations you faced!

    As Franjo stated; Smith, pls be a bit more specific in how can we help you with this?

    I also love the idea of being a part of Smith and Friends superhero team! One can only hope Dark Lord Cthulhu will also be joining us at some point! (South Park Coon and Friends reference)
  • Display Spoiler

    Herminard wrote:


    Baldin wrote:

    Cool thread!

    I don't have a snapshot, but I do have a question on which I would love some insight.

    I play O&G and most of the time a heavy close combat oriënted list. I however often struggle to decide how to get close enough to my opponent to get into melee. Often I want to put myself in a situation where I can charge my opponent, however when I can charge him he can also charge me.

    How do I decide wether to put my unit, lets say 4" movement eadbashers, in position to get into combat. Do I just offer my opponent to charge me and hope to last a round or do I try to get the charge on him?

    Hope my question makes sense!

    Cheers
    Baldin
    Yes! Good! This is a very good example for the situation I challenged Pascal to do a piece on for the ninth scroll. I called it "Strategy&Tactics for assaulting the standoff".

    Can you provide us with a sample list and situation?


    Yes, for example when I played against the SA list below I know my melee capabilities far outshone his. However due to my indecisiveness I tried to manauvre my unit of eadbashers and unit of mounted eadbasher with melee lord into a position to charge his units. I took way to long to setup this charge, also due to him having raptor riders on the flanks of the board.

    So should I just move forward more agressively and offer him the charge while chaffing his raptors or should I have tried to clean up his raptors first?

    My list:
    Display Spoiler

    ++ Orcs and Goblins (Orcs and Goblins 2.0 Beta) [4496pts] ++

    + Characters [1755pts] +

    Goblin Chief [195pts]: Battle Standard Bearer [50pts], Bow (3+) [5pts], Forest Goblin [80pts], Scuttler Spider [25pts]
    . Special Equipment [35pts]: Banner of Discipline [35pts]

    Goblin Chief [150pts]: Bow (3+) [5pts], Cave Gnasher [65pts], Cave Goblin [70pts], Lance [10pts]

    Goblin Witch Doctor [425pts]: Forest Goblin [115pts], Scuttler Spider [20pts], Thaumaturgy, Wizard Master [245pts]
    . Special Equipment [45pts]: Magical Heirloom - Dominant [45pts]

    Orc Warlord [485pts]: Army General [45pts], Iron Orc [285pts], Paired Weapons [10pts]
    . Special Equipment [145pts]: Death Cheater [95pts], Shady Shanking [50pts]

    Orc Warlord [500pts]: Feral Orc [260pts], Light Armour [5pts], Paired Weapons [10pts], War Boar [30pts]
    . Special Equipment [195pts]: Basalt Infusion [35pts], Omen of the Apocalypse [120pts], Potion of Swiftness [10pts], Troll Ale Flask [30pts]

    + Core [1126pts] +

    Goblin Raiders (Core) [239pts]: Bow (4+) [16pts], Forest Goblin, 8x Goblin Raider [104pts], Musician [20pts], Shield [8pts], Standard Bearer [20pts], Throwing Weapons (5+) [16pts]

    Orc 'Eadbashers [887pts]: Champion [20pts], Feral Orc [136pts], Mammoth Stabber [25pts], Musician [20pts], 34x Orc 'Eadbasher [578pts], Paired Weapons [68pts], Standard Bearer [20pts]
    . Banner Enchantment [45pts]: Green Tide [45pts]

    + Special [680pts] +

    Goblin Raiders [125pts]: Common Goblin, 5x Goblin Raider [65pts], Shield [5pts]

    Mounted ‘Eadbashers [465pts]: Champion [20pts], Common Orc [32pts], Lance [24pts], 8x Mounted ‘Eadbasher [200pts], Musician [20pts], Shield [24pts], Standard Bearer [20pts]
    . Banner Enchantment [95pts]: Mikinok’s Totem [95pts]

    Scrap Wagon [90pts]

    + Big 'n Nasty [935pts] +

    Gargantula [550pts]: Web Launcher [40pts]

    Great Green Idol [385pts]


    His list:
    Display Spoiler


    ++ Saurian Ancients (Saurian Ancients 2.0 Beta) [4499pts] ++

    + Characters +

    Cuatl Lord [835pts]: Army General, Battle Standard Bearer, Divination, Grasp of the Immortal, Symbiosis
    . Special Equipment: Magical Heirloom - Dominant, Talisman of the Void

    Skink Priest [115pts]: Druidism, Wizard Apprentice

    + Core +

    Skink Braves [200pts]: Bow (4+), Musician, 16x Skink Brave

    Skink Braves [380pts]: 2x Caiman, Hand Weapon & Shield, Musician, 20x Skink Brave

    Skink Braves [140pts]: Hand Weapon & Shield, 15x Skink Brave

    Skink Braves [200pts]: Bow (4+), Musician, 16x Skink Brave

    + Special +

    Raptor Riders [305pts]: Musician, 5x Raptor Rider

    Raptor Riders [285pts]: 5x Raptor Rider

    Raptor Riders [305pts]: Musician, 5x Raptor Rider

    + Jungle Guerrilla +

    Ramphodon Riders [239pts]: 3x Ramphodon Rider, Shield

    Ramphodon Riders [215pts]: 3x Ramphodon Rider

    Weapon Beasts [325pts]: 2x Salamander

    + Thunder Lizards +

    Stygiosaur [415pts]: Mystic Traveller

    Taurosaur [540pts]: Engine of the Ancients
    :O&G: :VC: :KoE:

    Homebrew Army: The Lycanthropes
  • Could we try to recreate the situation conceptually on UB so it is easier to follow the discussions?
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • I am very glad that his interests people, I think it will be a great learning experience for all!

    ArchangelusM wrote:

    So, do you want us marked ones to give you situations or to provide tactical decisions to the situations posted by the readers of your blog?
    I would say both: if you encounter situations that you find interesting, you can bring them forth. And, of course, I'd expect you to participate in the tactics discussion of every week's (?) topic.

    ArchangelusM wrote:

    If second, I would even propose an addition to your format: make each of us marked ones provide input to you via PM so that we do not read each others decisions in regards to tactical situation presented to see how and where our thoughts differ and by that make a discussion among the rest of the readers to see their thoughts and whose solution is better or even provide new solutions to the problem and then also try to discsrn if the differences are in the domain of good decision/bad deciaion or in the domain of "both are viable but depend on your personal playstyle/character."

    That way we can really involve the community and also ourselves a bit more to make us all learn more about the game that we like so much.
    I would expect my inbox to get crammed fast, but I guess we can give it a try! And indeed, not knowing how other players are thinking may make you come up with more innovative plans.

    casamar wrote:

    Love this idea - I'd be happy to provide some snap shots. I have my first full tournament in just over a week where I plan to do battle reports, so I should be able to produce some moments of value with photos and lists to add documentation.
    Good luck on the tournament, I hope there will be very little to discuss afterward! :)
    But in any case, eagerly awaiting your reports.

    Baldin wrote:

    I play O&G and most of the time a heavy close combat oriënted list. I however often struggle to decide how to get close enough to my opponent to get into melee. Often I want to put myself in a situation where I can charge my opponent, however when I can charge him he can also charge me.

    How do I decide wether to put my unit, lets say 4" movement eadbashers, in position to get into combat. Do I just offer my opponent to charge me and hope to last a round or do I try to get the charge on him?
    That is an interesting question, I'll try to reply to it in stenographic form shortly, but as Herminard points out I'll be also doing an article on it in the coming weeks.

    Herminard wrote:

    Yes! Good! This is a very good example for the situation I challenged Pascal to do a piece on for the ninth scroll. I called it "Strategy&Tactics for assaulting the standoff".
    You caught me! This thread will also serve as a way to collect material for said article. I'll be taking snapshots of interesting UB games I encounter, but I hope that the forum members will give me a lot too.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So I've given it some thought and taken your suggestions into consideration. Here is how I think we could do this:
    Forum members can PM me their questions/snapshots giving the following info:
    - 1 or 2 pictures of the situation.
    - secondary objective
    - Explication of the situation in hand and why they found it challenging. How much information you want to give depends on you: it can go as far as noting the distances between units for charges, but it can be more vague too (less work for you)!
    - Army lists, spells available and spell effects currently in play

    My job will be double:
    1) Present the question in a standardized manner in this thread, then coordinate the discussion and collect opinions from the generals that I've tagged.
    2) Curate the responses into an article, to be presented in a Blog that I'll be creating shortly.

    I plan on keeping this thread for day-to-day discussion, as well as for community comments on each situation. I'll try linking to the first page of the thread with the weekly tactical situation.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What do you think about this structure?

    To get the ball rolling, I've got a first tactical quiz that has been submitted to me by a couple of local players. Stay tuned!
  • Could we request that this thread becomes a pinned thread? :)
    "It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was Us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things."
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!