Continuation of thread regarding the recent DL book leak

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  • Continuation of thread regarding the recent DL book leak

    Mr.Owl wrote:

    On the issue of leaking, I think there are different minds sets here. The problem that I see is that many are so focused on what they individually want, they are heedless (or simply don't care) how their actions may impact others.

    As an example, we have the DL army book that is being redone. I don't have to explain why to @grungimusic as he is very well aware of the issues and these have been discussed at length. But the concept of making our book the same as GW's deamons book was not an option. But lets get to the specifics.

    grungimusic wrote:

    Indeed it belies the notion that such a leak is some dire event
    This presumes the only reason to keep something behind the scenes is because we think it will be poorly received. That is not the case. Have you ever tried writing with someone looking over your shoulder and reading while your writing? It's terribly disruptive. The creative process goes through iterations and revising, striking out, redoing is all part of it. This is especially so when things may go to play testing that come back with a tag "not fun" or RT review comes back that it pushes the guidelines to far. OK, *crumple* start again. There are many reasons and none of which in my book relate to the community not liking the direction. If the community does not like the direction, secrecy will not help that. That's a much bigger and more fundamental issue.

    grungimusic wrote:

    or that we need this kind of secrecy in the first place. All I see here is calm and genuine curiosity.
    Well, you know I'm not a big secrecy guy. But I can understand and respect the reasoning as to why others do want it. My individual opinion on this subject is in the minority. So I respect the decisions of the project even though I'm on the ExB and my not agree with a particular course of action. But this project is not just about ME and what I WANT. It's about a large group of people that have decided to work together and to compromise to reach a goal that works for those giving their time, efforts and energy. I have always liked @Nicreap and he has been a friend of mine for a while now. Seriously, he and I have gotten along pretty well and we share a lot of common viewpoints. But leaking is not one of them.

    grungimusic wrote:

    I find the entire notion of such secrecy a bit insulting to the community, TBH
    What about his actions relative to the DL TT and all the staff contributing to the DL army book, who have been working on this book for the last year and a half? How does taking their work without their consent and posting it in an unfinished form all over the Internet not rise to the level of "insulting"? It's not his to release.

    grungimusic wrote:

    Bravo to the leaker I say!
    Taking something that does not belong to you and releasing it shows no regard for all the people that have actually worked really hard on it. It also shows no regard for all those trying very hard to work together on the project.
    Now, your answer might go to the "there is no harm so there is no foul" argument. But that glosses over the primary issue, namely that this is group project and there is a decision made by a majority. I respect that decision even if I prefer that it was different. If we don't have a functional project with decisions being made and respected as a project, then we don't have a project anymore.

    You know I appreciate all the work you have done on the project in the past and all the time intensive work you currently do building the US tournament scene. Your work is IMO just as important as any work on staff. But I can't agree with you here on this issue.


    Some good points and well stated points as always; let me see if I have this distilled correctly:

    1. Leaks are disruptive to the creative process
    2.We might not agree with the secrecy of the project, but we should respect the majority who do
    3. Leaks are disrespectful to the creators of leaked material
    4. If staff does not follow an orderly process, our own "rule of law", then the project breaks down.

    Ok so:

    1. It's the Internet, you can filter who you want and respond to what you want. Pm's are not even roughly analogous to an actual person sitting over your shoulder, making annoying suggestions.

    2. I strongly disagree that the secrecy policy is the will of the majority of our community. The majority of the ExB and founders perhaps, but their will does not reflect ours. They sit from on high and dictate these policies to the rest of us. You're right, it isn't about what I want, it's about what WE want.

    3. This would only be true if the policy of secrecy were a mandate by the creators themselves, and not dictated to them by the ExB. Let me ask you this: If a creator of the DL book WANTS to release material early or otherwise discuss it with the public, but the ExB prohibits them from doing so, is that not also disrespectful to the creators?

    4. A fair point. But let me reiterate here that neither Nic nor I have an malice towards the project or its creators. This is an outstanding game and I would not see it harmed. That's why I am here typing and not doing something else.
    "An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you *stand, Men of the West!*"

    -Aragorn, son of Arathorn
  • If someone had leaked my work I wouldn't care. I wasn't getting paid for my work. I would go further but im still trying to get back onto the team in some capacity and people seem to get in a fuff about being questioned. However the users and those who play the game do not deserve to be treated like thumb sucking knaves and everything should be hidden from them till its done. Release of in process works should be championed by the users, not scorned and ran out on a tie as some kind of traitor to the dev team.

    I am all for full transparency when it comes to anything done on a volunteer project that is being backed by players. Its insulting to the players to hide everything behind a curtain until its fully finished. By far the biggest short coming of this project besides the stripping of player expression on the forums itself.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Grouchy Badger ().

  • grungimusic wrote:

    Some good points and well stated points as always; let me see if I have this distilled correctly:

    1. Leaks are disruptive to the creative process
    2.We might not agree with the secrecy of the project, but we should respect the majority who do
    3. Leaks are disrespectful to the creators of leaked material
    4. If staff does not follow an orderly process, our own "rule of law", then the project breaks down.

    Ok so:

    1. It's the Internet, you can filter who you want and respond to what you want. Pm's are not even roughly analogous to an actual person sitting over your shoulder, making annoying suggestions.


    Yes, I can filter what I see, but I can't easily stop others from spreading misinformation. Thats a major issue here, is that the document on its own easily lacks context - and people can amd will use it to propose incorrect and wrong theories. So many discussions i saw were just outright misrepresentations.

    2. I strongly disagree that the secrecy policy is the will of the majority of our community. The majority of the ExB and founders perhaps, but their will does not reflect ours. They sit from on high and dictate these policies to the rest of us. You're right, it isn't about what I want, it's about what WE want.


    It may not be the will of the majority of the community - or it may. Its damned hard to get an accurate result here. But it is the will of the people taking on the leadership mantle. Like @Mr.Owl i may not agree - but compromise is key to getting things done here.
    No one sits on high here. We're not GW or some other faceless company with ExB dastardly twisting their moustaches as they plot their way forward.


    3. This would only be true if the policy of secrecy were a mandate by the creators themselves, and not dictated to them by the ExB. Let me ask you this: If a creator of the DL book WANTS to release material early or otherwise discuss it with the public, but the ExB prohibits them from doing so, is that not also disrespectful to the creators?


    To my knowledge there hasn't been a situation in the last year where design team members have wanted to get greater community feedback and been told no.

    4. A fair point. But let me reiterate here that neither Nic nor I have an malice towards the project or its creators. This is an outstanding game and I would not see it harmed. That's why I am here typing and not doing something else.


    You may claim to not have malice, but an out of date, out of context document doesn't help either. You've done a great job in Texas, and i give you a ton of respect for that - but the leak confirmed negativity to a loud few, and that message amplifies.


    Which is a shame, because ultimately they were getting angry over something that is wildly inaccurate.


    And that's the thing - a preview is accurate, it has context.
    A leak is easily inaccurate, lacking context.

    should we have more previews? 100% yes. I loved the december previews we did last year before beta - it was exciting and stemmed a lot of good discussion.

    Could we be more transparent? Absolutely.

    Did the leak help any of this? No. In my opinion it failed to provide meaningful feedback, disseminate accurate reflection of the project, or provide accurate context to the document itself.

    We can be more transparent - but no 1 person gets to be the arbiter of that transparency - not least by their own appointment.

    That said, best of luck in texas. I hope your work down there keeps growing things - i'm trying it up here and its a lot of work - so i give you a lot of respect for that.

    Cheers

    ---

    Edited because my phone didn't like colouring my text!

    Head of Lectors

    Quick Starter Team

    "...take a step back and remember that we are playing a game where we roll dice and move little people around the board."

    - Grouchy Badger

    The post was edited 1 time, last by kisanis ().

  • kisanis wrote:

    grungimusic wrote:

    Some good points and well stated points as always; let me see if I have this distilled correctly:

    1. Leaks are disruptive to the creative process
    2.We might not agree with the secrecy of the project, but we should respect the majority who do
    3. Leaks are disrespectful to the creators of leaked material
    4. If staff does not follow an orderly process, our own "rule of law", then the project breaks down.

    Ok so:

    1. It's the Internet, you can filter who you want and respond to what you want. Pm's are not even roughly analogous to an actual person sitting over your shoulder, making annoying suggestions.


    Yes, I can filter what I see, but I can't easily stop others from spreading misinformation. Thats a major issue here, is that the document on its own easily lacks context - and people can amd will use it to propose incorrect and wrong theories. So many discussions i saw were just outright misrepresentations.

    2. I strongly disagree that the secrecy policy is the will of the majority of our community. The majority of the ExB and founders perhaps, but their will does not reflect ours. They sit from on high and dictate these policies to the rest of us. You're right, it isn't about what I want, it's about what WE want.


    It may not be the will of the majority of the community - or it may. Its damned hard to get an accurate result here. But it is the will of the people taking on the leadership mantle. Like @Mr.Owl i may not agree - but compromise is key to getting things done here.
    No one sits on high here. We're not GW or some other faceless company with ExB dastardly twisting their moustaches as they plot their way forward.

    3. This would only be true if the policy of secrecy were a mandate by the creators themselves, and not dictated to them by the ExB. Let me ask you this: If a creator of the DL book WANTS to release material early or otherwise discuss it with the public, but the ExB prohibits them from doing so, is that not also disrespectful to the creators?


    To my knowledge there hasnt been a situation in the last year where design team members have wanted to get greater community feedback and been told no.

    4. A fair point. But let me reiterate here that neither Nic nor I have an malice towards the project or its creators. This is an outstanding game and I would not see it harmed. That's why I am here typing and not doing something else.


    You may claim to not have malice, but an out of date, out of context document doesnt help either. You've done a great job in texas, and i give you a ton of respect for that - but the leak confirmed negativity to a loud few, and that mesage amplifies.


    Which is a shame, because ultimately they were getting angry over something that is wildly inaccurate.


    And thats the thing - a preview is accurate, it has context.
    A leak is easily inaccurate, lacking context.
    should we have more previews? 100% yes. I loved the december previews we did last year before beta - it was exciting and stemmed a lot of good discussion.
    Could we be more transparent? Absolutely.

    Did the leak help any of this? No. In my opinion it failed to provide meaningful feedback, disseminate accurate reflection of the project, or provide accurate context to the document itself.

    We can be more transparent - but no 1 person gets to be the arbiter of that transparency - not least by their own appointment.

    That said, best of luck in texas. I hope your work down there keeps growing things - i'm trying it up here and its a lot of work - so i give you a lot of respect for that.

    Cheers
    I think its more of the fact that the complete lack of transparency and "secrecy" drove someone to be something akin to a fantasy game whistle blower. It should never come to that.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
    youtube.com/channel/UCJ9e5C1f26iuvhOA33rsFJQ

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  • I’m about ready to lose my cool again.

    Respect the wishes of those in charge. Period. Nobody leaking this info is a “champion for the cause”. That’s a pretty pathetic idea if anyone feels that way. It’s a game. No one suffers, no one’s life is ruined, or missing out on significant life changing opportunities because they don’t get to peak behind the curtains of the guys trying to come up with the design.

    The majority of the community wants to know what’s going on? well no s%€t they do || .... when has that ever not been true regarding any organization, process, event, etc etc in history involving people with interest and a lack of knowledge? So as far as I’m concerned, that should never be a base for argument in favor of leaking.

    Just because I ask for something should not give me the sense of entitlement for it. And if I ask again and again with an increasing bad attitude despite politely being told “no” the first time WITH an explanation, not only should I be told “no” again, but that NO should be smashed into my face with giant sledge hammer. Otherwise you end up with a society that favors whining rather than patience, discipline, and self control

    Bunch of little spoiled kids is how I see them

    I’m just artist so... I feel I can be undiplomatic :)


    Edit: this is all no different than defending the rubber necker slowing down traffic because because he wants to get a good look at the accident (potentially causing another one himself)
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    I’m about ready to lose my cool again.

    Respect the wishes of those in charge. Period. Nobody leaking this info is a “champion for the cause”. That’s a pretty pathetic idea if anyone feels that way. It’s a game. No one suffers, no one’s life is ruined, or missing out on significant life changing opportunities because they don’t get to peak behind the curtains of the guys trying to come up with the design.

    The majority of the community wants to know what’s going on? well no s%€t they do || .... when has that ever not been true regarding any organization, process, event, etc etc in history involving people with interest and a lack of knowledge? So as far as I’m concerned, that should never be a base for argument in favor of leaking.

    Just because I ask for something should not give me the sense of entitlement for it. And if I ask again and again with an increasing bad attitude despite politely being told “no” the first time WITH an explanation, not only should I be told “no” again, but that NO should be smashed into my face with giant sledge hammer. Otherwise you end up with a society that favors whining rather than patience, discipline, and self control

    Bunch of little spoiled kids is how I see them

    I’m just artist so... I feel I can be undiplomatic :)


    Edit: this is all no different than defending the rubber necker slowing down traffic because because he wants to get a good look at the accident (potentially causing another one himself)
    Being an artist does not mean you can hold the community at large in contempt. Nor is it the same as a person rubber necking. This more akin to the driver wanting to see how the new road is going to be built and being told he cant see it until it is finished. It is illogical to not show the process to the community for their review. Again this is not a traffic accident, it is an entire Army Book. It is better to have the community in on it and finding it agreeable as it is being developed, than to drop it all at once without their input and having people drop the game.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
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  • No this comes down 100% to personal desire and lack of patience. When that road is built it’s going to take a whole lot more to work to start over or change something rather compared to an armybook.


    Feedback should come after the players have seen the whole picture so they can organize their criticism better and the designers are ready to take it all in
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    No this comes down 100% to personal desire and lack of patience. When that road is built it’s going to take a whole lot more to work to start over or change something rather compared to an armybook.


    Feedback should come after the players have seen the whole picture so they can organize their criticism better and the designers are ready to take it all in
    Lack of patience? People have been patient enough. There is a table of times that people usually follow as they wait for a product. I have experience in this being a paid artist myself. People are patient, to a point, and after that point they want something to look at and something in which they can measure the progress of what they are waiting for. People are also keen on when they are being lead along, and this can also charge people's patience to be even shorter. It is better and more enveloping to keep the community on the hip to watch the project develop and mature.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
    youtube.com/channel/UCJ9e5C1f26iuvhOA33rsFJQ

    Model Reviews with Twice the Brain Injuries!
  • What it comes down to is to elements feeling empowered and justified to bully a larger part of a process. And for that I have little respect, unless the will is truly in service of justice. And on a positive non-profit project such as 9th Age, that has no bearing.

    I hope the event does not significantly slow down the release schedule, and that future volunteers learn from this and understand not to undermine their peers.
  • Dopey wrote:

    What it comes down to is to elements feeling empowered and justified to bully a larger part of a process. And for that I have little respect, unless the will is truly in service of justice. And on a positive non-profit project such as 9th Age, that has no bearing.

    I hope the event does not significantly slow down the release schedule, and that future volunteers learn from this and understand not to undermine their peers.
    While the leaking could be constituted as bullying, the players who have been waiting for who knows how long anymore are justified to glimpses of the work in progress.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
    youtube.com/channel/UCJ9e5C1f26iuvhOA33rsFJQ

    Model Reviews with Twice the Brain Injuries!
  • Do you think it is ok to bully your waiter if your food takes longer to get to you than you think it should?

    Do you think it is ok to bully the clerk at a tollbooth because of how much traffic there is?

    "I have been waiting a while" is not an excuse for bullying and harassment. If you think it is, you should probably take some time for self reflection.
  • lawgnome wrote:

    Do you think it is ok to bully your waiter if your food takes longer to get to you than you think it should?

    Do you think it is ok to bully the clerk at a tollbooth because of how much traffic there is?

    "I have been waiting a while" is not an excuse for bullying and harassment. If you think it is, you should probably take some time for self reflection.
    Im not hearing "I have been" when I scroll through threads, Law. "We have been" its what I see most of the time. When it stops becoming a vocal minority and becomes a vocal majority, there tends to be proof in the pudding.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
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  • Hi Grouchy Badger, thanks for replying.

    In regards to being justified to viewing someone's work: no, we are not. I'm certainly vested in DL fluff and crunch, but I'm not involved in any way in it's creation.
    My options of involvement are: critique a finished product or service, & provide free brainstorming.

    Alphas and Betas are by invitation only world-wide. It's no different here.
  • grungimusic wrote:

    IoRi78 wrote:

    grungimusic wrote:

    I applaud his actions. The secrecy surrounding this project lacks any merit. It is not only unnecessary, but counterproductive.
    where is the merit in spoil something that is not finished and subject to change?
    Where is the harm?
    The people writing the book (be it ADT, BLT, RT, ExB, whateverT) don't want to have it spoiled before release. Doing so upset them. The harm is there. There is no need to search for deeper meaning as to why it upsets them, it does, and that's enough for the discussion at end. Even if it was wrong (and it's not imo), it still upset them, and I don't see a single reason as to why you would do something against their wishes. What's so hard about respecting the will of the people working on the stuff you want to have ? Do you feel like you deserve something in particular ? Hell, I'm part of the staff and I don't feel like I deserve anything.
    Between pleasing 100 random community members (I include myself in those, I consider I'm merely helping the project rather than being "part" of it) or 10 staff member who are working their a$$ of on this book, the choice is easy to make. They at least deserve that.

    There is nothing wrong with trying to persuade them that they should be more open regarding what's being made, but there is something wrong about applauding people that are upsetting them.
  • Then i think the majority have already been spoiled and instead of accepting that, we should force them to accept that this will continue to take a long time, for every single book, compared to whatever it is they’re accustomed to.

    We can’t change the fact this will take long, no chance in hell. We do however have to ability to control how we react. So let’s not support and defend the reaction that results from lack of patience like little kids that want the first toy they see, and instead, each person that says “I want it now” we should simply be honest and say “we, do, not, know, so stop asking” and hope they react like an understanding adult

    If people just need an itch scratched, the staff should simply tell them which point in the process they’ve reached, without giving out any details that opens up threads that the staff members now have to be distracted by
  • Dopey wrote:

    Hi Grouchy Badger, thanks for replying.

    In regards to being justified to viewing someone's work: no, we are not. I'm certainly vested in DL fluff and crunch, but I'm not involved in any way in it's creation.
    My options of involvement are: critique a finished product or service, & provide free brainstorming.

    Alphas and Betas are by invitation only world-wide. It's no different here.
    I simply disagree. The success of this game lays on the shoulders of the players. They should be treated fairly, and fairness is something as simple as posting a monthly update on the book or process that is currently in the spotlight, so they can read and follow it on its development and become involved in it.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
    youtube.com/channel/UCJ9e5C1f26iuvhOA33rsFJQ

    Model Reviews with Twice the Brain Injuries!
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Then i think the majority have already been spoiled and instead of accepting that, we should force them to accept that this will continue to take a long time, for every single book, compared to whatever it is they’re accustomed to.

    We can’t change the fact this will take long, no chance in hell. We do however have to ability to control how we react. So let’s not support and defend the reaction that results from lack of patience like little kids that want the first toy they see, and instead, each person that says “I want it now” we should simply be honest and say “we, do, not, know, so stop asking” and hope they react like an understanding adult

    If people just need an itch scratched, the staff should simply tell them which point in the process they’ve reached, without giving out any details that opens up threads that the staff members now have to be distracted by
    Your constant comparison of the community as children is not doing any kind of favors. How do you think they react when they see a member of the team calling them spoiled children?
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
    youtube.com/channel/UCJ9e5C1f26iuvhOA33rsFJQ

    Model Reviews with Twice the Brain Injuries!
  • The secrecy on the project, or rather, the desire to keep the book under wraps until it is done, is not something nefarious.

    Rather, it is something done to help speed things along. This project is already prone to be slow, since it is all people volunteering in their spare time. Everyone is working at least 40 hours per week at their jobs, plus spending time with family and friends (i.e. living their lives). There isn't enough time in the week for them to work 40 hours a week on this too.

    Having things leaked out like this doesn't help them. Now instead of working on the next iteration, they have to answer for things as they were several iterations back. "This is obvious op!" "This is clearly underpowered and useless!" "What a stupid idea! This designer is clearly an idiot!"

    This kind of stuff isn't helpful. Plus, being gaming nerds, it is unlikely that people will say "oh, neat. That is the direction they are going in. I obviously don't have the full picture yet, so I will refrain from negative comments until I see the whole thing."

    It hasn't happened yet (remember the huge stink everyone threw when pyromancy was first teased? Everyone looked at the one path and then started decrying everything as though all of the paths would look exactly the same?). It doesn't happen elsewhere, either. If I send out a WIP document to a client, specifically telling them to look at the substantive content and that I haven't touched formatting or the table of contents, they will, invariably, make corrections to the formatting and table of contents, treating me like I didn't do my job right.

    Keeping things under wraps until they are in a good state is a natural desire, and it helps those working on everything to get things out faster.
  • lawgnome wrote:

    it is unlikely that people will say "oh, neat. That is the direction they are going in.
    Not to be contrarian on principle, but I have seen many users actually saying they enjoyed the direction that was taken, oddly those posts were in the KoE sub forum but, I've seen them. People dont have to like what you have, nor do you have to reply to them. But it is better to have a window where they can look in than a brick wall and them pondering whats going on inside.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

    Chaotic Neutral
    youtube.com/channel/UCJ9e5C1f26iuvhOA33rsFJQ

    Model Reviews with Twice the Brain Injuries!