KoE General Discussion thread

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  • When I talk about belove I clearly mean the rule interaction. Wasn't Jean darc famous for beeing in the front lines and leading by example?

    I assume almost all knights would die in honor for their ledge. Doesn't matter if Damsel or paladin or Duke.

    This is in 9th age not possible (expect UD or did they loose it?)

    So while you are right it makes no sense to pay for better statline and armor and send her second row and she wants to be equal and leading and thus wouldn't accept a second row while the Duke is staying in front

    Both sides of the coin have merit

                                 

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  • Klexe wrote:

    When I talk about belove I clearly mean the rule interaction. Wasn't Jean darc famous for beeing in the front lines and leading by example?

    I assume almost all knights would die in honor for their ledge. Doesn't matter if Damsel or paladin or Duke.

    This is in 9th age not possible (expect UD or did they loose it?)

    So while you are right it makes no sense to pay for better statline and armor and send her second row and she wants to be equal and leading and thus wouldn't accept a second row while the Duke is staying in front

    Both sides of the coin have merit
    Yeah, I love the visual behind it. It just isn't much different from a Paladin with Crown of the Wizard King, Oriflamme Banner, and Virtue of Humility.

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  • echoCTRL wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    When I talk about belove I clearly mean the rule interaction. Wasn't Jean darc famous for beeing in the front lines and leading by example?

    I assume almost all knights would die in honor for their ledge. Doesn't matter if Damsel or paladin or Duke.

    This is in 9th age not possible (expect UD or did they loose it?)

    So while you are right it makes no sense to pay for better statline and armor and send her second row and she wants to be equal and leading and thus wouldn't accept a second row while the Duke is staying in front

    Both sides of the coin have merit
    Yeah, I love the visual behind it. It just isn't much different from a Paladin with Crown of the Wizard King, Oriflamme Banner, and Virtue of Humility.
    Except shes going to have special rules.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

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  • My Dream Damsel (sic) looks like this:
    OS/DS 4, 2 attacks, res 3, stick her on a unicorn for Res 4 and so she can keep up with quests, no oaths, gain access to heavy armor and weapon options (lance? Why not?), give her 50-100 points of item allowance, she cannot be BSB, she gains a leadership boost (8? 9?) and loses beloved, is max wizard adept, but gains:

    Herald of the Lady:
    A unit joined by the Combat Damsel (insert better name) is always affected by the Breath of the Lady spell.

    What would she cost, d’you think? And what would you pay for her?
  • Ignoring the specifics, a distinction between Paladin (fighty hero), Combat Damsel (Buffing hero), and Damsel (casting hero) could give interesting design space. (I'd prefer to drop the gendered names and make it something like "Paladin, Blessed, and Cleric," but that's a separate discussion.) They could then have Lord level equivalents.

    Paladins would need to be the best choice for deathstars / cowboys, Blessed for tarpits, Casters for general use. The key is to sharply distinguish them.
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Joan of Arc supposedly never killed anyone though. However she’s pretty much the perfect example of Inspiring Presence and Rally Around the Flag put together
    Inb4 I am called sexist. Lol. Kappa.

    I was going to state the same, Marcos. Jean never fought at the frontlines. She led from the frontlines, yes, but as soon as the fighting started she would have been too important to risk in the melee. She did most her job by being a beacon and rallying point. Her armor and weapons were intended as propaganda and ceremony while giving her some sort of self defence in case her boduguards failed to protect her. And against arrows ofcourse.

    She is a great example of bravery and inspiring her troops, but a fighter? No. Even a mediocre English fop would probably have taken her in a 1v1.

    That does not mean she could have been, but the reason many of the knights followed her was because she was a tiny, young girl who was little danger to anyone. If she had been a Brienne of Tarth level of fighter the I doubt she would have inspired the same type of morale into her troops.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Duke Niemar ().

  • Duke Niemar wrote:

    Marcos24 wrote:

    Joan of Arc supposedly never killed anyone though. However she’s pretty much the perfect example of Inspiring Presence and Rally Around the Flag put together
    Inb4 I am called sexist. Lol. Kappa.
    I was going to state the same, Marcos. Jean never fought at the frontlines. She led from the frontlines, yes, but as soon as the fighting started she would have been too important to risk in the melee. She did most her job by being a beacon and rallying point. Her armor and weapons were intended as propaganda and ceremony while giving her some sort of self defence in case her boduguards failed to protect her. And against arrows ofcourse.

    She is a great example of bravery and inspiring her troops, but a fighter? No. Even a mediocre English fop would probably have taken her in a 1v1.
    Probabilities are never something to weigh an argument on.
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  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    Probabilities are never something to weigh an argument on.
    You know much of history is about probability. We have to piece together the evidence that exists and fill in the gaps by going after the most likely event out of what we know. Sure, the unlikely happen sometimes but the reason it is called unlikely is just that. Ockhams razor. If there is a neighing in the woods in europe, it is probably a horse. It could be a zebra, it is not impossible just very unlikely, but we will just state that it is most likely a horse anyway and move on.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • echoCTRL wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    When I talk about belove I clearly mean the rule interaction. Wasn't Jean darc famous for beeing in the front lines and leading by example?

    I assume almost all knights would die in honor for their ledge. Doesn't matter if Damsel or paladin or Duke.

    This is in 9th age not possible (expect UD or did they loose it?)

    So while you are right it makes no sense to pay for better statline and armor and send her second row and she wants to be equal and leading and thus wouldn't accept a second row while the Duke is staying in front

    Both sides of the coin have merit
    Yeah, I love the visual behind it. It just isn't much different from a Paladin with Crown of the Wizard King, Oriflamme Banner, and Virtue of Humility.
    Well for me there are huge differences.

    • Access to Adept (not master)
    • You can choose your lore and build plans
    • Perhaps access to Bsb (unique that a fighting mage can be Bsb)
    • Option for making oriflame only use able through her (perhaps choose between adept wizzard and oriflame apprentice)
    • Option for new lores perhaps
    • Options for special rules
    • More and better fluff
    • Options for having general and Bsb in one model (see SA. They also make all chars playable)


    Choosing your spells and lore is imo the the sole reason why a wizzard crown paladin can never be Jean darc

                                 

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  • Razztlin wrote:

    My Dream Damsel (sic) looks like this:
    OS/DS 4, 2 attacks, res 3, stick her on a unicorn for Res 4 and so she can keep up with quests, no oaths, gain access to heavy armor and weapon options (lance? Why not?), give her 50-100 points of item allowance, she cannot be BSB, she gains a leadership boost (8? 9?) and loses beloved, is max wizard adept, but gains:

    Herald of the Lady:
    A unit joined by the Combat Damsel (insert better name) is always affected by the Breath of the Lady spell.

    What would she cost, d’you think? And what would you pay for her?
    Cost?

    So you pay imo the same as a current wizzard Adept as you trade better stats and armor for beloved. (beloved is so strong)
    Giving her Ld 8 or even 9 and unicorn on a adept? That means +200 points. Adding the breath of the lady spell... Again +100 at least.

    So I assume around 550
    A grail knight unit with her inside and a paladin... That is quite devastating. Paladin with wrymwood also reroll 1 to wound on breath weapon Uf

                                 

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  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Joan of Arc supposedly never killed anyone though. However she’s pretty much the perfect example of Inspiring Presence and Rally Around the Flag put together

    Duke Niemar wrote:

    Marcos24 wrote:

    Joan of Arc supposedly never killed anyone though. However she’s pretty much the perfect example of Inspiring Presence and Rally Around the Flag put together
    Inb4 I am called sexist. Lol. Kappa.
    I was going to state the same, Marcos. Jean never fought at the frontlines. She led from the frontlines, yes, but as soon as the fighting started she would have been too important to risk in the melee. She did most her job by being a beacon and rallying point. Her armor and weapons were intended as propaganda and ceremony while giving her some sort of self defence in case her boduguards failed to protect her. And against arrows ofcourse.

    She is a great example of bravery and inspiring her troops, but a fighter? No. Even a mediocre English fop would probably have taken her in a 1v1.

    That does not mean she could have been, but the reason many of the knights followed her was because she was a tiny, young girl who was little danger to anyone. If she had been a Brienne of Tarth level of fighter the I doubt she would have inspired the same type of morale into her troops.
    So a mix of 2av Ows4 s3 ap1? And heavy armor and options for weapons while having access to Bsb and general at the same time with Ld 8 makes sense?


    • Duke? Still greater Ld (both can be buffed by +1) and killing power can't be Bsb and general and virtues
    • Paladin (many agree on a rework for beeing a designer anti cowboy hunter and Duell guy) but currently better killing power and virtues can't be general or cast
    • Damsel. Always the better caster and better save by hiding inside units. No access to general and Bsb.



    So for me a warrior Damsel aka Jean darc beeing Ld 8 Bsb and General (your choice if you buy Crown. It will be expensive if she dies) make absolutely sense.

    This will enable armies which want on low number of characters.
    Playing Jean darc with crown and perhaps +1 more Damsel. Still cost at least 1000 points.

    You can't hide her in second row = enemy has a goal. Kill her and you get:
    • 550 for her
    • 200 general
    • 200 bsb
    • 200 crown
    That is 1100 alone for her.

    The heroic games you can play by clutch saving her sounds awesome. The tragic games when she dies last round and a victory goes down the drain and the enemy wins.

    Here is my current take on her:

    Name(WIP) Jean D'arc

    M4 March8 Ld8
    Dws4 r3 as0 wounds3
    Ows4 av2 s4 ap1 agi4
    Heavy armor
    Rules: magic resistence 1, beacon of hope, 4++ aegis
    May be: adept 75points
    May take: horse, unicorn, pegasus, 100 magical points, paired weapon, Lance, shield

    Beacon of hope: model must be general and Bsb at the same time. Its range is increased to 18" for both.


    Why only 100magic points? That is also one trade of. This means you can not be defensive and offensive at the same time.

    Combos:
    • Crusader salvation duh (most defensive) but only Ld8
    • Crown +Alchemist +lucky charm = 1+ reroll Ld 9 with Ows 2
    • Heros heart and basalt/paired weapon
    • Heros heart Ghostly guard paired weapon
    • Any Flagg + items
    • Basalt infusion 35,wrymwood core 45. 20points left.
    • Crown and brwth weapon s3?


    Whatever you take there is counter play, weaknesses and sniping spells are a very very hard counter

    I liked the idea of giving her the oriflame because it remembers me at the nice scene from vikings when they attacked Paris but it should be somewhat background oriented and if she was a beacon of hope and rallying the troops was her thing? Why not.

    Having no Ld 9 mage option was for long a thorn in my eye and a higher range for Ld test is good for KoE which needs to be reliant on flanking and moving and spreading out.


    How would an army with her look like in a FAR:

    Center: Jean darc with bodyguard as anvil:
    Center support: lances of your choice. Realms are suited for Jack of all trades.
    Flanks: hammers of your choice. Pegasus which need the Ld support from Jean darc or grails which hit harder and better and are more indipendent but can't fly and move slower.

    Other army build:
    Bodyguard + Msu all the way. Msu realms core or other mobile stuff.
    Grails, green knight, red knight etc an literally swarm of knights. Many many small needles

                                 

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  • And yes Ld 8 is crucial for such a typ of model (see SA)
    You want a more offensive model or supporting with banner enchantment? Then you should play Divination for maximised Ld test.
    You want a Msu ultra stable army? Yeah Divination is still great.

    You want a grinding holding the line typ of army? Drudismn sounds very good.
    Jack of all trade? Shamanism.

                                 

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  • Grouchy Badger wrote:

    Some of us agree'd in the Dont Call Me Damsel thread that she should only have access to a barded war horse in case they want to make her into a cowboy. The best thing that could happen is that she is given Oath of Fealty aura with a unit effect attached to it, something that improves leadership or defense or attacks when a unit with Serf comes under her bubble. Many players would love to see a Joan of Arc type character that could whip up normal, un-knighted troopers into somewhat of an actual force to better help support the Knight units. The easiest option would be to take the normal Damsel stat line, remove access to wizard master, lower Special equipment points, have her gain access to heavy armor, shield, and questing oath, and then give her a nice/logical aura buff to units with Serf.

    I would use this character as a challenge soaker which she'd be significantly better at than a unit champion as she can't be killed by most champions in one round (as she has 3 wounds).

    Take away horse access and then I can see her being played the way you want her to be - as a peasant helper wizard. I'd also give her specific spells that are clearly worse on knights than on peasants (e.g. Healing Waters) rather than allow her to choose spells normally.

    That brings up a lot of other issues with the idea though as I'm not sure that peasant helper wizards is something we need in the main book. Our Wizards have spells that can be used to help peasants as well as knights. A combat damsel as described might be better suited for an auxiliary peasant uprising book...

    Bretboy84 wrote:

    Why to suggest anything good and new for army if klexe, marcos and other designers do what they wants and does not listen other people from community. If you really think that current army list is good then why even bother to suggest anything? If army is now perfect, why to change it then =( .
    As far as I can tell, nobody has claimed the army list is perfect. What we've said is that the army is where we want it to be in regard to fantasy. We want new and updated stuff but we don't want flying wizard conclaves, etc.

    There have been a number of good suggestions made that have gained some form of consensus in the community. Some of the ones that I would like to see included in the rework are:
    Pravise crossbows
    A mounted anvil unit
    Splitg Pegasus knights into heavy and light roles.
    Upgrading KoE champions to have 2 wounds and let them do a little bit more.

    Don't get the wrong idea. An idea that is floated and rejected, that will make the resulting book better because we will know that that idea was not what we wanted. An idea that someone had might be perfect but if you keep it to yourself it definitely won't be included.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • Klexe wrote:

    Name(WIP) Jean D'arc

    M4 March8 Ld8
    Dws4 r3 as0 wounds3
    Ows4 av2 s4 ap1 agi4
    Heavy armor
    Rules: magic resistence 1, beacon of hope, 4++ aegis
    May be: adept 75points
    May take: horse, unicorn, pegasus, 100 magical points, paired weapon, Lance, shield
    I don't see Joan of Arc as a wizard. GW did a Joan rehash with Repanse de Lyonesse which more accurately fits the profile for me. She would have to be blessed by the Lady so the MR1 and 4+ Aegis works.

    I'd go for Discipline 9 and a +6" CP/IP boost (or 6" CP if not the general) and maybe a buff to charges like rerolls?
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
  • But without wizzard upgrade it totally loose its meaning.

    The thing is we want a mix of wizzard + fighter. EoS has it with its mirror item.

    And you can already do a Jean darc non wizzard anyway. Just play a Humility Duke or even paladin and say it is Jean darc.

    As background says only women can be magic caster Jean darc is quite a good fit for a wizzard caster

                                 

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  • Klexe wrote:

    But without wizzard upgrade it totally loose its meaning.

    The thing is we want a mix of wizzard + fighter. EoS has it with its mirror item.

    And you can already do a Jean darc non wizzard anyway. Just play a Humility Duke or even paladin and say it is Jean darc.

    As background says only women can be magic caster Jean darc is quite a good fit for a wizzard caster
    I was just pointing out that I don't think a wizard fits the Joan of Arc storyline although the rest of your stuff works. If that's not what you're going for, drop the obvious link to Joan of Arc (i.e. the name).

    Klexe wrote:

    Name(WIP) Jean D'arc

    M4 March8 Ld8
    Dws4 r3 as0 wounds3
    Ows4 av2 s4 ap1 agi4
    Heavy armor
    Rules: magic resistence 1, beacon of hope, 4++ aegis
    May be: adept 75points
    May take: horse, unicorn, pegasus, 100 magical points, paired weapon, Lance, shield

    Beacon of hope: model must be general and Bsb at the same time. Its range is increased to 18" for both.
    With these rules & stats you will be looking at a model that costs 500+ points. She can fight better than a KoTR champion (due to PW). With a 4+ Aegis save and 100 points of Magic items she doesn't need much defense (she's 2+, 4++ just with a horse). And she has access to 2 spells. It just feels like it would be priced out

    I don't know why you'd take this model if running any cavalry as a Dis 8 general isn't great even if the 18" BSB is. The same issue is there for a peasant army as 2 humility hippo dukes give you 2 18" general/BSBs with Dis9. The whole concept as you have described it works better in an auxiliary Peasant Uprising list.

    For a Warrior Damsel to make the main list, she'd need a distinct role - i.e. something none of the other characters can do. At the moment you guys are trying to tack together the Paladin and the Damsel in an effort to get a model that does both roles. By doing this a Warrior damsel will be worse than taking a Damsel and a Paladin separately and even if (a potentially big if) she's less expensive, the likely points gain will not add up.

    Give her a role that does something different rather than a bad mashup of 2 existing roles. Eg

    Warrior Damsel, Wizard Apprentice
    Adv 4, Mar 8, Dis 8
    DWS 3, Res 3, ARM 0, HP 3
    Off 4, Attacks 1, Strength 4, AP2, Agi 4
    Heavy armour, shield
    Rules:
    Defensive Training, Natural Rebel, Beloved, Insignificant, Serf, Blessing, MR1
    No mounts allowed (she's a peasant buffer wizard).
    Can take Adept +X Points or Master +Y points

    Defensive Training: Whenever a close combat attack is directed against this model, this model gains an additional attack at the current initiative step, which hits automatically.
    "Take a swing at the nice Lady and she'll have your head mate. Fair warning..." This is basically to discourage the enemy from killing her. They can still do it, but they'll feel the pain for doing so.

    Natural Rebel: The model can only select insignificant units as valid spell targets. Additionally if the target unit(s), including the targets of any attribute spells, do not contain any other characters (I.e. not including this model) the spell's Casting Value is reduced by 1.

    This is a model that wouldn't be cheap, but it does something a little bit different.
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Sir_Sully ().

  • I already said when and why to take her. And you can add her to Ld 9 with crown.
    And I also said I assume at least 550ish without magic items.


    Their main goal would be:
    Take only her and have ld9 and magic and Bsb for the almost the lowest cost possible.

    Paladin and Duke alone almost naked cost 600 ish.

    So yes you pay (if Ld 9) around 100 points more but you get +2 spells and channel and +1/2 aegis
    But you loose 5 really good av and 3 wounds and 1 horse.

    Having two models or one model in one can both be better or worse depending on match up(easier to save one model but you don't loose all if one of two dies)


    So for me the main goal is: you want to play low character heavy? How about going warrior Damsel. Jack of all trades.

                                 

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  • Klexe wrote:

    I already said when and why to take her. And you can add her to Ld 9 with crown.
    And I also said I assume at least 550ish without magic items.


    Their main goal would be:
    Take only her and have ld9 and magic and Bsb for the almost the lowest cost possible.

    Paladin and Duke alone almost naked cost 600 ish.

    So yes you pay (if Ld 9) around 100 points more but you get +2 spells and channel and +1/2 aegis
    But you loose 5 really good av and 3 wounds and 1 horse.

    Having two models or one model in one can both be better or worse depending on match up(easier to save one model but you don't loose all if one of two dies)


    So for me the main goal is: you want to play low character heavy? How about going warrior Damsel. Jack of all trades.
    Jack of all trades, But master of none. Though often times better than master of one.
    I am going to offend you. You are not going to like it. You will survive.

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