WDG Army book discussion - 2.05 till... now

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  • New

    Aegitru wrote:

    It's interesting that veil walker isn't valuable for buffer mages, I thought about it before. As of now if you don't have at least 2-3 blasts it doesn't seem like an interesting investment

    So how about giving a buff-related veil walker thingy? Like "in addition to the usual effects of the spell, all model with Hell forged armor in the unit may reroll 1s for armor save rolls", with same mechanics (discard token, last one turn and augment only)

    This way veil walker can either go on blasters or buffers, or mixed profiles.
    And warrior knights, among others, get a neat boost
    Further disincentives taking non hellforged units plus rerolling ones to armour isnt worth a token. Just make veil walker only effect ranged like it does now,as that is our army strength, just make it free instead of insane cost
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • New

    I use most of my magic on buffs rather than on missiles so I think that it's not useful to pay such a price for something you are not likely going to use... if it's kept as is, I'd make it free since you are already losing some potential buffs when using it...

    And I'd much rather have, as you say, an attribute or effect using veil tokens that allows to repeat armour saves (bonkers with alchemy or knights) or that allows you to use buffs in aura (bonkers too but since you pay one token per attempt you might end up using the 3 just for 1 successful cast, so 'losing' one dice, so in the end it's like casting a boosted version).
  • New

    Maybe something like that:

    When casting spell, before dispel roll, you may discard a veil token. If you do, any wizard that try to dispel that spell will count any roll of triple as Miscast like during spell casting.

    :muaha:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armywide Signature Spells - Check! Maybe you could add something more? Success! We got Hereditary Spells!
  • New

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Not if it was free. Its not like you have to pay points for gates of the netherworld or the like
    They do, though. These days, there are VERY few things that can be called 'free lunch', and not all prices are point-based either. I'd assume that the price in question here is that Necromancers have access to only two paths, and the cost of their other rule, Awaken! is instead taxed out on Zombies and Skeletons instead of the Wizard, and even then it's quite cheap.

    Now, I'd rather not argue about the Veil Walker, since we are ALL perfectly aware that the fact that it's double, maybe triple-taxed makes it nigh-impossible to use, and stating the fact over and over again doesn't really accomplish anything but make me feel terrible, so lets instead talk about those different pricing methods, since I'm actually a big fan of that style of costing and wish it was used more overall in the game.

    Bodyguard is a rule that uses this style of costing pretty often. Lets take units like Necropolis Guard or Iron Orcs for instance. Their minimum units are very cheap, but their additional models cost a lot. This is because it can be assumed that their minimum size versions aren't going to be using Bodyguard, but if you're adding models into the unit it's likely that you're planning to place a character in there...Thus, the cost of Bodyguard is taxed out on the additional models instead of the starting models.

    Some units with a specific Bodyguard effect don't pay the cost themselves - The cost is taxed on the Character that is expected to be in the unit instead, and that cost is refunded out of the characters mounts because if they're mounted they're unlikely to be in the unit. This means that every configuration of the units, aside from playing the character solo, can reach its optimum price.

    Makes sense, aye?
    Life is hard when you're a skeleton
  • New

    i really hope for the future that the way of calculating points is redone....armies with access to better paths should have this taxed...units that can be cured has to increase largely in points ...a Xhaos lord has 3 damned hp pool..a vampire lord has at least 5 ...a carnosaur has at least a 6 -8 hp poil during the game...35 barrows guard are actually 45 50...at least...and so on...the ability to cure something is extremely powerful...and must be more taxed
  • New

    Lordsephiroth78 wrote:

    i really hope for the future that the way of calculating points is redone....armies with access to better paths should have this taxed...units that can be cured has to increase largely in points ...a Xhaos lord has 3 damned hp pool..a vampire lord has at least 5 ...a carnosaur has at least a 6 -8 hp poil during the game...35 barrows guard are actually 45 50...at least...and so on...the ability to cure something is extremely powerful...and must be more taxed
    Undead already have calculated tax for that "healing" in their costs. Also remember about drawbacks (at least in case of Undead :P ).
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armywide Signature Spells - Check! Maybe you could add something more? Success! We got Hereditary Spells!
  • New

    Palmu wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Not if it was free. Its not like you have to pay points for gates of the netherworld or the like
    They do, though. These days, there are VERY few things that can be called 'free lunch', and not all prices are point-based either. I'd assume that the price in question here is that Necromancers have access to only two paths, and the cost of their other rule, Awaken! is instead taxed out on Zombies and Skeletons instead of the Wizard, and even then it's quite cheap.
    Now, I'd rather not argue about the Veil Walker, since we are ALL perfectly aware that the fact that it's double, maybe triple-taxed makes it nigh-impossible to use, and stating the fact over and over again doesn't really accomplish anything but make me feel terrible, so lets instead talk about those different pricing methods, since I'm actually a big fan of that style of costing and wish it was used more overall in the game.

    Bodyguard is a rule that uses this style of costing pretty often. Lets take units like Necropolis Guard or Iron Orcs for instance. Their minimum units are very cheap, but their additional models cost a lot. This is because it can be assumed that their minimum size versions aren't going to be using Bodyguard, but if you're adding models into the unit it's likely that you're planning to place a character in there...Thus, the cost of Bodyguard is taxed out on the additional models instead of the starting models.

    Some units with a specific Bodyguard effect don't pay the cost themselves - The cost is taxed on the Character that is expected to be in the unit instead, and that cost is refunded out of the characters mounts because if they're mounted they're unlikely to be in the unit. This means that every configuration of the units, aside from playing the character solo, can reach its optimum price.

    Makes sense, aye?
    Look, im sorry if any of this discussion is making you feel bad, but weve got nothing to really talk about other than hypothosising about what could or should happen to the worst offenders in our book.

    Im not bothered about whther things are priced individually or by unit synergy or whatever, so long as every army is playing by the same rules and getting a fair shake. I know you cant effect this at all, just design stuff and hope rule and points team are kind. The system is wrong and it doesnt work.

    Im just impatient to see the overdue update, even though youve already told me i wont like it because it hasnt really adressed the issues strongly enough.
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • New

    Oh, I'm well aware of the lack of actual things of substance to discuss, we're trying to do something about that.

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Im not bothered about whther things are priced individually or by unit synergy or whatever, so long as every army is playing by the same rules and getting a fair shake. I know you cant effect this at all, just design stuff and hope rule and points team are kind. The system is wrong and it doesnt work.
    I don't even try to blame other teams for my, our, shortcomings in a lot of departments when it came to the design of the book. Some successes, many failures, but we can't expect other teams to pick up the slack when we've cooked up a hot mess. I'd lie if I said that I don't harbor some resentment over some things (Chimera, Veil Walker), but it's selfish thinking - A design needs to be able to stand on its own two legs, not need a crutch to do so. We can't expect to just push special rules or effects into an unit and expect everything to work out right - Minimality is good! Just need to figure out what's minimal for what.

    Warriors for instance - Would we have gotten way further with how the unit feels on the table, if instead of Favors we would have kept 2nd supporting attack and given them something like Battle Focus for example? If instead of Hellforged we would have tried to find a special rule to affect the entire army?

    Hindsight is the worst thing there is...But it's helpful with the future in mind.
    Life is hard when you're a skeleton
  • New

    Altao wrote:

    Lordsephiroth78 wrote:

    i really hope for the future that the way of calculating points is redone....armies with access to better paths should have this taxed...units that can be cured has to increase largely in points ...a Xhaos lord has 3 damned hp pool..a vampire lord has at least 5 ...a carnosaur has at least a 6 -8 hp poil during the game...35 barrows guard are actually 45 50...at least...and so on...the ability to cure something is extremely powerful...and must be more taxed
    Undead already have calculated tax for that "healing" in their costs. Also remember about drawbacks (at least in case of Undead :P ).
    People tend to forget the drawbacks, so thank you :D
    :UD_bw: :WDG: :DE:
  • New

    Palmu wrote:

    Oh, I'm well aware of the lack of actual things of substance to discuss, we're trying to do something about that.

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Im not bothered about whther things are priced individually or by unit synergy or whatever, so long as every army is playing by the same rules and getting a fair shake. I know you cant effect this at all, just design stuff and hope rule and points team are kind. The system is wrong and it doesnt work.
    I don't even try to blame other teams for my, our, shortcomings in a lot of departments when it came to the design of the book. Some successes, many failures, but we can't expect other teams to pick up the slack when we've cooked up a hot mess. I'd lie if I said that I don't harbor some resentment over some things (Chimera, Veil Walker), but it's selfish thinking - A design needs to be able to stand on its own two legs, not need a crutch to do so. We can't expect to just push special rules or effects into an unit and expect everything to work out right - Minimality is good! Just need to figure out what's minimal for what.
    Warriors for instance - Would we have gotten way further with how the unit feels on the table, if instead of Favors we would have kept 2nd supporting attack and given them something like Battle Focus for example? If instead of Hellforged we would have tried to find a special rule to affect the entire army?

    Hindsight is the worst thing there is...But it's helpful with the future in mind.
    Rather than instead of favours, one favour could have been extra supporting attack, or battle focus, instead of double caveated nightmare rules. Hellforged is fine for a rule that doesnt effect whole army, just bsb cost (for anything other than cheap barbb who offers very little but reroll and isnt that cheap) is the problem that makes it seem like a problem for the rest of the units. Waiting and hoping for best, while expecting the worst!
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army
  • New

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Palmu wrote:

    Oh, I'm well aware of the lack of actual things of substance to discuss, we're trying to do something about that.

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Im not bothered about whther things are priced individually or by unit synergy or whatever, so long as every army is playing by the same rules and getting a fair shake. I know you cant effect this at all, just design stuff and hope rule and points team are kind. The system is wrong and it doesnt work.
    I don't even try to blame other teams for my, our, shortcomings in a lot of departments when it came to the design of the book. Some successes, many failures, but we can't expect other teams to pick up the slack when we've cooked up a hot mess. I'd lie if I said that I don't harbor some resentment over some things (Chimera, Veil Walker), but it's selfish thinking - A design needs to be able to stand on its own two legs, not need a crutch to do so. We can't expect to just push special rules or effects into an unit and expect everything to work out right - Minimality is good! Just need to figure out what's minimal for what.Warriors for instance - Would we have gotten way further with how the unit feels on the table, if instead of Favors we would have kept 2nd supporting attack and given them something like Battle Focus for example? If instead of Hellforged we would have tried to find a special rule to affect the entire army?

    Hindsight is the worst thing there is...But it's helpful with the future in mind.
    Rather than instead of favours, one favour could have been extra supporting attack, or battle focus, instead of double caveated nightmare rules. Hellforged is fine for a rule that doesnt effect whole army, just bsb cost (for anything other than cheap barbb who offers very little but reroll and isnt that cheap) is the problem that makes it seem like a problem for the rest of the units. Waiting and hoping for best, while expecting the worst!
    That's actually something I had mentioned ages ago re: DL and the favours. Just use existing rules.

    Lust: Swiftstride
    Wrath: Lightning Reflexes
    Envy: Hatred
    Greed: Weapon Master
    Gluttony: Fear (if unit has Fear, Terror... if both.. meh?)
    Pride: Battle Focus
    Sloth: Stubborn first round of combat

    Perfect? No. But easier to manage re: rules bloat.
    Goblin, Daemon Legions and Empire of Sonnstahl Player and 9th Age Staffer
    Follow my journey through the world of 9th Age HERE
  • New

    Shukran wrote:

    drawbacks means being top tierr army too?
    Tóuche.

    Undead get a real leg up over everyone else in that their armies are just so reliable, and their elite units are just plain *better* because they dodge the weakness any living elite unit could have - Losing combat slightly and running for the hills. The so-called weakness of Undead is a really big nearly debilitating issue when you're a skeleton, because life is hard when you're a skeleton, but when you're a Shabti, if not for the fact that you can't ever flee it's nothing but a big ol' bonus. A chosen unit loses combat by 3? Time to pray that you don't roll above 5. Shabti losing combat by 3? Have a laugh and take two additional wounds - The next spell to come through will heal that anyway.

    Chosen are basically Undead, except they come with all the downsides AND can break from combat.

    This wasn't an issue back when undead, mostly UD, were largely rabble that was barely kept standing via magic, but in 9th they've steadily risen up the eliteness chart, and now that situation is felt pretty clearly.


    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Rather than instead of favours, one favour could have been extra supporting attack, or battle focus, instead of double caveated nightmare rules. Hellforged is fine for a rule that doesnt effect whole army, just bsb cost (for anything other than cheap barbb who offers very little but reroll and isnt that cheap) is the problem that makes it seem like a problem for the rest of the units. Waiting and hoping for best, while expecting the worst!
    The themes behind the Favors are good, the execution is a lacking, often-convoluted nightmare.

    Except for Envy, that concept didn't really work out. For all that Kuulima is my patron goddess, I can't say we honored her here.


    @SkargitCrookfang one of the explicit design principles was to avoid just slapping BRB special rules on Favors and to make them fresh and memorable. Which was a real good idea except it didn't quite work out. I still wouldn't just go with simple special rules, but I WOULD amp some of the effects up and remove some of the wording.

    Like, Pride, Greed and Wrath. I consider them all successes due to the value of their effects and the change in role they bring. The rest I consider very meh for reason or another.
    Life is hard when you're a skeleton
  • New

    Palmu wrote:

    Shukran wrote:

    drawbacks means being top tierr army too?
    Tóuche.
    Undead get a real leg up over everyone else in that their armies are just so reliable, and their elite units are just plain *better* because they dodge the weakness any living elite unit could have - Losing combat slightly and running for the hills. The so-called weakness of Undead is a really big nearly debilitating issue when you're a skeleton, because life is hard when you're a skeleton, but when you're a Shabti, if not for the fact that you can't ever flee it's nothing but a big ol' bonus. A chosen unit loses combat by 3? Time to pray that you don't roll above 5. Shabti losing combat by 3? Have a laugh and take two additional wounds - The next spell to come through will heal that anyway.

    Chosen are basically Undead, except they come with all the downsides AND can break from combat.

    This wasn't an issue back when undead, mostly UD, were largely rabble that was barely kept standing via magic, but in 9th they've steadily risen up the eliteness chart, and now that situation is felt pretty clearly.


    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Rather than instead of favours, one favour could have been extra supporting attack, or battle focus, instead of double caveated nightmare rules. Hellforged is fine for a rule that doesnt effect whole army, just bsb cost (for anything other than cheap barbb who offers very little but reroll and isnt that cheap) is the problem that makes it seem like a problem for the rest of the units. Waiting and hoping for best, while expecting the worst!
    The themes behind the Favors are good, the execution is a lacking, often-convoluted nightmare.
    Except for Envy, that concept didn't really work out. For all that Kuulima is my patron goddess, I can't say we honored her here.


    @SkargitCrookfang one of the explicit design principles was to avoid just slapping BRB special rules on Favors and to make them fresh and memorable. Which was a real good idea except it didn't quite work out. I still wouldn't just go with simple special rules, but I WOULD amp some of the effects up and remove some of the wording.

    Like, Pride, Greed and Wrath. I consider them all successes due to the value of their effects and the change in role they bring. The rest I consider very meh for reason or another.
    For pure selfish purposes (Sugulag all the way) I'm happy ;)
    Goblin, Daemon Legions and Empire of Sonnstahl Player and 9th Age Staffer
    Follow my journey through the world of 9th Age HERE
  • New

    Kdownunder wrote:

    I used veil walker with my other EH (other one was the double shamanism one). I had comet and hereditary and this one was lurking back lines or clipping corners if need to fight. Otherwise I wouldn't even consider it.
    Same with me.

    Always used hand of heaven, comet and heredetary on my second herold. So 3 damage spells, all compatible with veil walker. And i was very satisfied with this combined potencial.

    Always drawing some dice to bring the shamanism spells through.
  • New

    Palmu wrote:

    one of the explicit design principles was to avoid just slapping BRB special rules on Favors and to make them fresh and memorable. Which was a real good idea except it didn't quite work out. I still wouldn't just go with simple special rules, but I WOULD amp some of the effects up and remove some of the wording.
    Memorable?
    It should be "easy to remember" if all 7 Favours are going to stay.
    Still there are two crucial differences that makes Favours less possible to balance than Marks:
    a) 4 Marks affected different areas (defence, offense, utility, movement) while 7 Favours overlap
    b) it is a lot easier to make 4 Marks usable having whole book rather than 7 Favours on just 5 units :D
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armywide Signature Spells - Check! Maybe you could add something more? Success! We got Hereditary Spells!