Orcs and Goblins - A 2 in 1 Army Book

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    • arwaker wrote:

      What about Unruly being this way:

      Unruly (X)
      Units with one or more model parts having Unruly, suffer a Discipline modifier of -X in all tests of Redirect Charge, March, Restain Pursuit and Combat Reform. If the unit contains models with different X, only count the largest.

      Feral Orcs: Unruly 2
      Normal Orcs: Unruly 1
      Iron Orcs: ---
      All kinds of Goblins: Unruly 1
      Trolls: Unruly 4 (but stubborn, no stupidity and Dis 6)
      Currently I have this wrapped into the H Spell. I tried out as part of the Formation rule but it was too cumbersome.

      As it's own ability we are looking at something which would have a benefit for preventing a Break test, and bad for anything else.

      What does the army gain from this? Better OnG feel? (A: Yes)
      Better at Grinding? (A: Yes)
      Will it be fun for OnG players and opponents? (Profit!)
      Is there another fun way to have similar effect? (Yes)

      So I think the last few rules suggestions made are all solid, and would be used in conjunction if we changed direction. I would go with this.

      Unruly
      Units comprised of one or more models with this rule and not joined by a model with the Front Rank rule are effected as follows:
      Break rolls by the unit are subject to Minimized Roll.
      All other Discipline tests are subject to Maximized Roll.

      We eliminate the Unruly Horde formation rule, and go back to the old "Bring the Pain"

      Army Design Team

      :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
    • Now the current Unruly Rule and Spell in my Homebrew are the following:

      Unruly Horde
      Models from the Orcs and Goblins army gain access to a special formation called Unruly Horde, formed with ranks 10 models wide. Models in an Unruly Horde formation with at least two full ranks gain two instances of Fight in Extra Rank and are always Steadfast. When making Shooting Attacks with Volley Fire models in Unruly Horde formation may fire from the third rank.

      At the start of the Controlling Player's Movement Phase, each unit in Unruly Horde formation that is not Engaged in Combat must roll a d6. On a roll of ‘6,’ models in the unit gain Random Movement 2D6 and the unit must move in the same Movement Phase. Fleeing units in Unruly Horde formation always count as rolling a ‘6’.

      Green Animosity H Spell
      Models in the target unit gain Grinding Attacks resolved with Strength 3 and Armour Penetration 0. All Break tests by the unit are subject to Minimized Roll and all other Discipline tests are subject to Maximized Roll.


      I feel that the effect I created (shown Above) better represents both Orcs and Goblins than the rules below. I think the changes being proposed (shown below) are a bit more bland flavor wise but far more solid rules wise. I would be fine with that if I wasn't so afraid that I had striped the heart out of the Goblin units when simplifying them. Is there still enough OnG flavor in the army if we ditch the Unruly Horde and Green Animosity for the below?

      echoCTRL wrote:

      Unruly
      Units comprised of one or more models with this rule and not joined by a model with the Front Rank rule are effected as follows:
      Break rolls by the unit are subject to Minimized Roll.
      All other Discipline tests are subject to Maximized Roll.

      We eliminate the Unruly Horde formation rule, and go back to the old "Bring the Pain"

      Army Design Team

      :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
    • I wholly disagree with your stance on trying to get even more random movement into an army that already has the most random movement in the game. I understand that it is fluffy and flavorful but that is why O&G get other units that have random movement built in. Its just better for gameplay. On another note, random movement is actually quite powerful in a game where movement positioning and arc alignment is everything. Your basically giving the unit a free pivot + charge. Very powerful which is why you gotta take witchcraft and only got 1 shot at casting it per turn. Plus, we got other units with random movement.


      echoCTRL wrote:

      Green Animosity H Spell
      Models in the target unit gain Grinding Attacks resolved with Strength 3 and Armour Penetration 0. All Break tests by the unit are subject to Minimized Roll and all other Discipline tests are subject to Maximized Roll.
      You want to avoid drawbacks in a spell like the maximized roll for other tests. The drawbacks/risks/points are already covered in the wizard cost, power dice use, and miscast risk.
      Green Animosity H Spell
      Models in the target unit gain Grinding Attacks(1).
      - If cast on a goblin unit: resolved with Strength 3 and Armour Penetration 0.
      - If cast on a Orc unit: resolved with Strength 4 and Armour Penetration 0.
      All Break tests by the unit are subject to Minimized Roll

      Honestly the more I think about it, the existing Hereditary spell to re-roll hits is actually fine. The FieR banner costs points, the unruly horde is balanced on it's own merits. So it's not really OP at all.


      echoCTRL wrote:

      At the start of the Controlling Player's Movement Phase, each unit in Unruly Horde formation that is not Engaged in Combat must roll a d6. On a roll of ‘6,’ models in the unit gain Random Movement 2D6 and the unit must move in the same Movement Phase. Fleeing units in Unruly Horde formation always count as rolling a ‘6’.
      I think the unruly horde is actually balanced as is. 10 wide is a fairly significant drawback for 25mm base size that are capped at 50 models. And after casualties it is no longer viable. A bit less of a drawback for goblins, but goblins have less Deff and Resilience so its balanced.

      Design and balance issues for unruley in general: We can't have any extra dice rolling per unit because that slows down games. RT found this out very long time ago based on playtesting.
      Losing control of units from an extra special rule is tactically very bad for any sort of tactical play.

      That being said - the maximized rolls suggestion for already existing checks like marching, frenzy, restrain pursue, etc... is perfectly fine.
      I think it is one of the best suggestions that fits within the framework of T9A gameplay. This can be added to the whole army if desired. It is a drawback so it either needs a counter trait like Champions/characters in unit disregard unruly(day keep da boyz focused!), or a general reduction in points for the units, or something else. Or after playtesting, maybe it doesn't need a positive counter trait.
    • Peacemaker wrote:

      I wholly disagree with your stance on trying to get even more random movement into an army that already has the most random movement in the game. I understand that it is fluffy and flavorful but that is why O&G get other units that have random movement built in. Its just better for gameplay. On another note, random movement is actually quite powerful in a game where movement positioning and arc alignment is everything. Your basically giving the unit a free pivot + charge. Very powerful which is why you gotta take witchcraft and only got 1 shot at casting it per turn. Plus, we got other units with random movement.
      So I actually removed almost ALL random movement from the army. Only Scrap Wagon and Giants with Wrecking Ball still have Random Movement. That is part of the reason why I am trying to add some of it back.

      I considered what you said regarding the Unruly Horde rule. Thank you.

      I have taken the Random Movement out of it and tacked in the Minimzed Rolls/Maximized Rolls suggested by Arwalker.

      I went back to the current H spell Bring the Pain. Sad about this because I loved the idea of a spell that could augment or hex units to give them Random Movement and make them possibly hurt their own army.

      I am still worried that the army book is missing something unexpected.

      I have removed the Fire Engine unit for now. Simply because I don't think it would make it into a FAB rewrite.

      Army Design Team

      :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
    • Could always throw in a bound spell somewhere that gives Augment Random movment 2D6, front facing models get impact hits can harm friendlies if touched. Although random movers still get to chose direction so hitting your own guys would be very rare and only happen when you really don't want to get out of position - scoring or risk of counter charge the turn after you've cast it.

      Bound spells are more like psycological prayers, so orcs getting all reved up and fighting each other just start going for it fits fluffy wise. Green Idol could chose which bound spell to use before battle. The Stompy Spell or the FIghty spell.
      This is about as far as O&G religion goes. The god of Stompin' and the God of Fightin'.



      The fire engine and other extra units should be thrown into an Orc Auxiliary list. Some auxillary lists are designed to be more like a faction of the main army but for O&G it fits that we juts get a crazy unit auxillary list to chose from.

      Can throw in that fire engine. Maybe an Idol of Spork(the lesser known geenskin diety) who has some crazy rules. A unit of Big Eadbashers who have 2 wounds, 2 attacks, 30mm base, etc... Goblin Zeplin, etc...

      Fluff wise it is units that are very rare or don't usually last the first battle.
      This encompasses experimental goblin engineering like fire engine or zeplin. Heck it can be 1 entry with a ton of optional upgrades. 1 with smaller base, 1 with bigger base.
      Idol of Spork quickly gets burned as heretical. "wez can barely rememba 2 godz! no way wez lettin a 3rd god spring up!, burn it boyz!"
      Big Eadbashers only forum up when a war has gone on for a while and nothing left but big orcs so they might fight 1 battle as a unit with a new clan but after the battle they thump heads in the mobs and become champions.

      The post was edited 7 times, last by Peacemaker ().

    • Originally I wanted

      Large Size Orc Warlord (turned into Special Item Enchantment)
      Mounted Iron Orcs (Kept)
      Large MI Orcs
      Orcs mounted on Vultures or Crows (without Background people don't know wy I choose this, and I cannot spoil it)
      Fire Engine (Just removed)
      A Towering Goblin Chariot with tons of Goblins on it. (Combined into Fire Engine, which I just removed)
      Bat riding Goblins.

      So instead of Great Green Idol, the Idol of Spork would be named "Lesser Used Idol," and come with the following rules:

      Fearless, Supernal, Stubborn, Random Movement 3D6, Towering Presence, Terror. Ambush (the Lesser Known Idol is not built by Orcs or Goblins, it just appears!)

      Unexpected Madness
      The model must move in a random direction. Units with one or more models within 12" of a Lesser Used Idol must use Random Movement 2D6. If ab effect unit rolls a double on the roll for Random Movement, it moves in a random direction instead of the chosen direction. and deals 2d6 Strength 3 AP 0 hits to all units within 1" at the end of its move.

      Army Design Team

      :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
    • For large orc MI units I just use Ogre Khans. I have Ironjaws from AoS and it seems to fit best with that army book at the moment. Obvioulsy the plate armour on the Ironjaws isn't represented but all the elf armies have that problem so no biggy.

      Flying orcs...ya the T9A rules get all balance upity about flying units. Even though we can technically just give it fly without light troops now. So it's not very OP at all.

      Random thought: cool rule for spiders - flying units can't fly over them. if they do then the flying unit can get snagged and suffers attacks or something.
      Edit: Units with flying that move over spiders suffer 1 attack made by the each spider model part. Roll to hit and wound as normal.
    • A great thread so far with some Great ideas.

      I like the idea of seperating the armies out but still leaving the option for a combined force. So how about the following idea:

      Introduce the key word orc or goblin to each unit. If your general is an Orc then any units with the keyword gobbo now come out of the big and nasty allowance and vice versa if your general is a goblin. So firstly we can have an all Orc force or a Goblin force depending on your general with room then to bring in a small few units of the other race. But you have to think about then what you bring in and weigh it up against what you lose from that category. Maybe shift some of the better units to the big and nasty category to make a player really think about their army selection. So if we went with the monstrous infantry orcs or Black orc on boars into the big and nasty category you would have to weigh up losing them if you wanted to bring in some goblin units.

      Have a free upgrade then to your general that allows him to be a master of both races and take your normal Orc and Goblin army with no restricitons to race. So the traditionalists can still pick their army as normal.

      This would obviously place the normal Orc general or Goblin general armies at a disadvantage so we would introduce a rule to each one to balance it out.

      For Orcs I would obviously like to find something that fits their nature. So how about if your army is lead by an Orc General any unit containing the key word Orc in horde formation fights in an extra rank on the turn they charge. Or maybe just FIER on the turn they charge.

      For Goblins leadership and weight of numbers seem to be defining traits. So how about if your general is a Goblin then all Goblin heros when taking any leadership tests may add +1 to their leadership for every goblin unit of 20 or more models within 12 inches of them. Emphasis the horde nature of the Goblins and drawing their bravery when they appear in large numbers.

      Obviously then if your general chose to be a master of both races he would get neither of these increases.

      Just a thought. Keep up the good work.
    • Peacemaker wrote:

      For large orc MI units I just use Ogre Khans. I have Ironjaws from AoS and it seems to fit best with that army book at the moment. Obvioulsy the plate armour on the Ironjaws isn't represented but all the elf armies have that problem so no biggy.


      Edit: Units with flying that move over spiders suffer 1 attack made by the each spider model part. Roll to hit and wound as normal.
      Because I thought the totem system was well thought out I've used my orcs in a fun game as proxy for BH. Not even such a stretch. You could then use MI based orcs as minotaurs.

      Not too big a fan of turning 'regular' animals into grotesque (size wise) fantastical beasts personally, I can't really see a snotling riding a crow, let alone an orc. There's precedent (gargantula anyone) but having a universe with known, real animal (sizes), complemented with some creations makes it easier to relate to. That's how I prefer my fantasy.
      “Fantasy is hardly an escape from reality. It's a way of understanding it.”
      ✧✧✧ Make Greenskins great again ✧✧✧
    • DiaLogical wrote:

      Because I thought the totem system was well thought out I've used my orcs in a fun game as proxy for BH. Not even such a stretch. You could then use MI based orcs as minotaurs.
      I used them as BH when I first got the army. Gore Gruntas as Chariots, Brutes as minotaurs, regular orcs as wildhorns, goblins as mongrels.
      BH fit well for an entire O&G proxy.
      ....but I also have a small BH army. And Zi don't have any Oger Khans.
    • unfortunately I have only seen this discussion now, and I am very happy with the transparency and sharing that our army desing team is having with our O & G community.

      I have read the whole book, and although I have stayed behind the recent update from the point of view of the scoring of the units, and I find very beautiful and helpful the following things:
      - Unruly Horde
      -Cleavers Call
      -Trophy Pole
      -great green idol with banner enchantment

      I fully approve the choice to remove the races and replace them in the options of the units without then distorting them but simplifying everything.
      The things that I do not like for personal taste (but I'm not saying that they are weaker or do not go well) are:
      -mad gits, the classic operation on a round base is much better and more characteristic
      -muonted iron orcs, I approve the idea but the fact of not being able to give him the lance makes berdere that advantage that should give this choice
      -Goblin Wolf Raiders lose light troop and gain scoring, I understand that it was done to give different roles to wolves and spiders, but they seem a bit 'lightly for not having light troops
      -troll are not scoring, they need it
      -The Gnasher Wrecking Team's Out of Control rule, linked to the presence of the goblin raider, I do not see it well since there is no longer the shambolic rule and a unit is very expensive to have random moviment in a ramdom direction

      rewrite best the Fighting Animosity rule of the great green idol because it is not clear if the unit has to stop at 1 "from the other units always or only when it makes a 1 on 3d6

      thanks!!!
    • Il riccio90 wrote:

      unfortunately I have only seen this discussion now, and I am very happy with the transparency and sharing that our army design team is having with our O & G community. Thank you, I should let you know that I am just one member of the ADT and may not be asked to participate when O&G is up for the FAB. I hope to be though.

      I have read the whole book, and although I have stayed behind the recent update from the point of view of the scoring of the units, and I find very beautiful and helpful the following things: Awesome, glad you like them.
      - Unruly Horde
      -Cleavers Call
      -Trophy Pole
      -great green idol with banner enchantment

      I fully approve the choice to remove the races and replace them in the options of the units without then distorting them but simplifying everything.
      The things that I do not like for personal taste (but I'm not saying that they are weaker or do not go well) are:
      -mad gits, the classic operation on a round base is much better and more characteristic Total work in progress. On a round base the model is more like a Special Weapon rather than a unit. We might have to go back to such a design point. Would base such rules off of Wrath of God, Ghost Step, and Sweeping Attacks.
      -muonted iron orcs, I approve the idea but the fact of not being able to give him the lance makes berdere that advantage that should give this choice Alright, I gave them a Lance.
      -Goblin Wolf Raiders lose light troop and gain scoring, I understand that it was done to give different roles to wolves and spiders, but they seem a bit 'lightly for not having light troops Agreed, this just wasn't working. The Wolf Raiders have gotten Light Troops back and now both Raider entires have scoring.
      -troll are not scoring, they need it As a shared unit across multiple Armies (at least they used to be) the unit needs to remain mostly the same across all entries in the 9nth Age. For that reason I am not touching Troll Scoring atm. Trolls will be something FAB Task Team brings up to RT and they then negotiate.
      -The Gnasher Wrecking Team's Out of Control rule, linked to the presence of the goblin raider, I do not see it well since there is no longer the shambolic rule and a unit is very expensive to have random moviment in a ramdom direction Removed the rule

      rewrite best the Fighting Animosity rule of the great green idol because it is not clear if the unit has to stop at 1 "from the other units always or only when it makes a 1 on 3d6 Thanks for the help, i rewrote it and made it an Army Wide Special Rule as a Bound Spell any BSB would get.

      thanks!!!

      Thank for the reply.

      Army Design Team

      :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
    • Thank you, good catch. Here:

      "All Break tests by units in Unruly Horde formation are subject to Minimized Roll and all other Discipline tests are subject to a single instance of Maximized Roll"

      the single instance wording should prevent doubling maximized roll on Frenzy. However, it might be nice for Frenzy troops to be Guaranteed to make a frenzy move.

      All, I will update to 2.05 over the weekend.

      Army Design Team

      :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
    • arwaker wrote:

      Why do you love that minimized, maximized rules so much? I would prefer a simple +1 or -1 on Discipline.
      I really do like the mechanic. Maybe too much. I think you are right on this. I will adjust it.

      Peacemaker wrote:

      Probably because thats the way T9A is going with its design. Its more interactive to have min/max than a simple +-
      No he is right, it is a "me" thing. For instance I wrote a version of Maximised role for use with to-hit/to-wound/armour saves once.

      Display Spoiler

      Providence (X)
      The model and all models in the same unit that make up a Wound Pool, such as those of a character or the R&F models of a unit, with Providence roll (X) additional number of dice for to-hit rolls and to-wound rolls. For dice rolls subject to Providence, roll all dice plus (X) additional D6 and discard the (X) lowest D6 rolled (i.e. if a Wound Pool would roll 4 D6 for a to-hit roll, the Wound Pool would roll 4 plus (X) additional D6). The results of the discarded D6 are ignored for all intents and purposes. A Wound Pool may not have more than 4 instances of Providence. When multiple models in a unit make up a single Wound Pool and each model has Providence the rule is cumulative up to a max of 4 instances of the rule (e.g. for a unit of two R&F models each with Providence (1), you roll two additional D6 and discard the two lowest D6 rolled). This rule replaces any instance of Maximized Role which affects the same dice roll.

      Army Design Team

      :KoE: :O&G: :SA:
    • Well, I'm not totally against min/max, but I think in every case it should be at least also an alternative design consideration to make +/-1 instead. Especially if there is a danger to get multiple instances of min/max (which should be avoided because it creates text and confusion and questions).
    • Great book, just discovered this and love most of what you have done.

      My main suggestion would be with the gnasher wrecking team. The way it currently works it is like a grenade and is a pretty unique unit to our book. I realise that it is way too complicated and so needs simplifying but I think there are still ways to make it function like a grenade without all the complexity.

      I like how you have streamlined the movement, but at the moment if it gets charged it will probably die before doing much. I would it give it OS, DS, Agi and Attack’s of zero. Any attacks against it hit automatically. HOWEVER... It does 2D6 grind attacks which are always at the same Agility as the highest Agility in the attacking unit. This represents the fact that it is too out of control to actually attack properly but when attacked it does simultaneous damage.

      This would make it very dangerous to charge due to the damage that would be sustained but even a weak unit could kill it fairly easily.