When swarms are ogres, and ogres are swarms

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  • When swarms are ogres, and ogres are swarms

    I read a sincere & heartfelt post about a dedicated wargamer closing the doors to this hobby, as the 9th Age changes were too significant for him to keep up with, being major adjustments that had him constantly tweaking his lists - preparing new units only to have new rules shifts render it futile & put on the shelf.

    I too am of the deep opinion things should not continually change significantly.
    Unless it's to re-balance major mess-ups that were made by T9A. It's great to think armies like Beasts & Woodies will become viable again, however I believe perspective has been lacking and a new army (the "Swarm") is now in that spot.

    I want to talk about this to both point out a deeper thing: the issue of losing perspective, and to of course bring attention to the need for adjustments to be un-made.
    Seeing what got done to that army is disappointing. While it may have been viewed as broken before, the pendulum definitely swung much too far in the opposite direction.

    When you look at the army, it is supposed to be the *most numerous army* with cheap infantry, and a couple risky crazy hitters.
    Yet the defining unit (for giving this army its strength/flavor) slaves- were downright hated on by the Beta. I don't think you could neuter them any more and pretend they're a viable unit. I wonder if they weren't the race defining unit for the "Swarm" to actually look /play like a swarm army.

    YET you look at Ogre Kingdoms with their cheap infantry unit - and despite them being filler to the gaps of large infantry units - they put Slaves to shame!!

    It's mind-boggling how this could just be done to an army, than of course they grossly underperform. What is the point of having armies like the Vampire Covenant have amazing infantry prices (infantry that are steadfast & resurrect) when the most mass-infantry race is being hated on to the point where the army is ruined?

    Did ANY changes to that unit even need to be made?

    CAN'T AN ARMY HAVE SOMETHING UNIQUELY STRONG? Does Vermin Swarm have flying, cavalry, [ethereal], etc? So why do the rule makers feel the need to completely castrate the *most* race-defining unit? ... Swarm?!?


    Was this thought of when Slaves went up in price? Little adjustments to a mass unit are actually massive, not little. Especially when it defines the race.

    But it didn't stop there did it? Somehow (despite being able to be shot into more accurately - which is a compete red-herring in this discussion) they also:
    - lost the ability to get significant combat resolution, even if they do win (ie against other weak infantry)
    - no champ
    - slightly more expensive
    - larger minimum size

    While some changes are understandible/arguble, it simply didn't stop there apparently.

    They than:
    - lost the ability to take shields!(!) Not only is this significant on the battlefield (imagine [Chaos Mauraders] having this change made!?!? Of course it wouldn't be acceptable to other standard infantry), AND it's highly annoying for people to remodel!!).


    Somehow there's still more:
    - they lost the ability to have shooting. Ok.... Let's just take away any unique way to play the backbone unit?


    - than they had unit sizes capped. Some Swarm guys.







    They are pathetic now.



    What's the most underper





    [This is rhetorical - because I'm not really interested in your answer] How is this considered a positive achievement to a fundamental unit?
    I assume the goal wasn't to make it so that the army can't be played the same way. I.e. With the "Swarm" being crippled, into an inferior version of many other armies. Which results show. Ogres have better light infantry!


    I know you rules guys are trying, but things have gotten so out of perspective - that some Ogre Kingdoms players didn't bring *ANY * Ogres in competitive lists!!! (save characters of course). Lol - yet their light infantry is awesome compared to Slaves - which is supposed to the backbone of a mass infantry army!

    When the Swarm army isn't a swarm, and Ogre lists don't take any Ogres (but they do take that competitive light infantry) than friends, it is time to re-tale perspective. People planned these armies, bought these armies, painted these armies- with a spirit that lived what they were about.
    I fear the rules makers appear more like the Council of 13 vying for things they want, vs guardians of the aura of fantasy, that make this hobby special & what it is supposed to all be about.








    I Encourage Sincere Consideration:
    - stop trying to homogenize armies- DIFFERENT ARMIES ARE GOING TO HAVE DIFFERENT STRENGTHS, and Ogres should look like an Ogre army, and ratmen should look like a ratmen army. It's already been done, just undo the careening changes that have been made.
    - balance NEEDS to incorporate the race-defining nature that these armies were originally intended to have!! Some will have stronger light infantry, some stronger large infantry. Some will have more knights, some will have more monstors.

    Finally, whatever led the rules committee to do this to begin with... - the main example being slaves which are now maybe the worst budget infantry- is quite discomforting in itself: *I think when people see that that can happen- than no matter what army they play - they subconsciously realize that if that can happen, anything can happen

    I don't intend on being around here any longer this year - but if I check back next year and this great fantasy game feels like it's supposed to, I'll reconsider following & supporting.

    Hopefully there is no massive penalizing to race-defining units- so it can look, play & feel like it was intended to, with each race's key trait defining their strengths, and showing it on the tabletop.
    I predict some will be justifying all this with inferior logic. Which is why I don't intend to stick around, because some people are lost in the forest & can't see its being turned into something else - the very reason we started this project to begin with.

    So I'll leave this with my detractors: you can say whatever you want, but when someone looks at a table and sees cats & goblins & asks: "what race is that?" and we are sullenly forced to say "it's Ogre Khans, the race of ogres", or when we have to explain why anyone would play the Swarm when their swarm-factor is not remotely impressive - it defeats the purpose of having changed anything AT ALL.

    Chess is the game for people who want both sides to exactly mirror each other? I appreciate the cart, and sincere amount of work that had gone into the attempt at making a singular, PERMINANT, balanced wargame, with only ever very minor adjustments. May T9A keep the spirit of uniqueness & let some sides have more rooks, some have more pawns, and some have more bishops, with the work being done to make sure all the peice values add up - all the whole understanding that it will never be 'perfect' but it CAN surely be TRUE TO HEART.

    The post was edited 7 times, last by Onlurker: *This post is primarily about: - a race-defining unit taking half-a dozen negative blows, than going up in cost which was followed by: - than the race getting spanked at tournaments (by the last measures I saw), being distinctively worse than all the other races - that it may not be the only race which doesn't seem to stay true to it's spirit - that we may ask need to be humble & (without that of criticism) open to the possibly that while rounding the corners off the old block (good intentions), it may have started to look more like a circle than a block. ().

  • :D

    Nicreap wrote:

    JimMorr wrote:

    For me taking as little as possible cheap infantry is not SiN.
    And there we finally have the resolution. This isn't SiN for you, and that's fine. But your opinion is not the description that was in the poll. You will notice, that nowhere in that description does it ever constrain the models to a single unit, only that their be lots of bodies, and the wound pool be low quality. So while you may feel it isn't sticking to your interpretation of what SiN means, that does not mean the project is violating the poll.
    It means the poll, doesn't exclusively describe what you want it to be.
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  • Sorry, but strangely, what you seem to regret from T9A is not what the project is doing.

    - we're not trying to homogenize armies, that is the opposite. However, the armies you use as examples are still in their initial state, inspired heavily from legacy. They should get a complete overhaul in the years to come, and this overhaul will definitively give them unique strengths and weaknesses compared to other armies. What you deplore, we deplore as well. But there is no magic to change it brutally overnight.

    - the rules which we will publish before the end of the year will be permanent. No change at all for the coming years.
    Note that I am talking about the core rules, not the army books.
    The army books will see minor changes of point costs, and exactly one major overhaul per army book within the next five years.
    So stability is a goal, which we are close to implement.

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    UN Coordinator, aka UNSG

    - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
  • Calisson wrote:

    their initial state, inspired heavily from legacy
    I believe @Onlurker has opposite opinion: due to the balancing armies went a looooong way from their legacy. At the same time they are in the 'initial state'. All together it means they are exactly in the middle of nowhere... :(
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  • Competetive OK lists consisting mostly of non ogres?
    Competetive VS lists having no slaves units in it?

    I guess I have been sleeping the last months... :D

    But seriously:
    Dude, try to play some games. And then some more. Then change your list and Play even more.
    You will see that the rules are much better then you expect. And things like ogres and slaves are way much worth then described. :)
  • Ciara wrote:

    Im curious about non ogre list. Tigers and gnoblars only core and then fill rest of army with yeti, giants and kin eaters?
    Hmm yeah I've never seen an ogre list with no ogres in core. Sounds funky!
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018
  • Ferkinason wrote:

    Competetive OK lists consisting mostly of non ogres?
    Competetive VS lists having no slaves units in it?

    I guess I have been sleeping the last months... :D

    While I agree summer has passed and winter is coming, here are a few examples of what you ask:

    Denmark Ogre ETC list wrote:

    590 - Shaman, General, Rottenjaw, Crown of Autocracy, Essence of a Free Mind, Master, Pyromancy/Shamanism
    245 - Khan, BSB
    420 - Mammoth Hunter, Trolleater, Iron Fist, Wrestler's Belt, Lucky Charm, Potion of Swiftness, Scout
    345 - 6x Tribesmen, M
    395 - 60x Scraplings, Spear, M
    389 - 59x Scraplings, Spear, M
    175 - 3x1 Kin-Eater
    320 - 2x1 Thunder Cannon
    475 - 2x1 Rock Auroch
    4499


    Russian Ogre ETC list wrote:

    600 - Shaman - Rottenjaw, General, Wizard Master, Essence of a Free Mind, Thaumaturgy & Pyromancy, Crown of Autocracy, Iron Fist
    450 - Khan - Trolleater, BSB, Iron Fist, Heavy Armour, Heart-Ripper, Mammoth-Hide Cloak
    420 – 7x Tribesmen, C, M
    190 – 3x Bruisers
    359 – 54xScraplings, Spears, М
    365 – 55xScraplings, Spears, М
    175 - 3х1 KinEater
    320 - 2х1 Thunder Cannon
    475 - 2x1 Rock Aurochs, Ogre Crossbow (3+)
    4499


    Spanish Vermin ETC list wrote:

    Josu "epoepo" García - The Vermin Swarm
    845 - Magister, general, 4 spells, Doom Bell, light armour, alchemist alloy, second awakening, crown of autocracy, Wizard Master, Thaumaturgy
    195 - Chief, BSB, scepter of vermin valour
    735 - Plague Patriarch, 2 spells, plague pendulum, plague flail, light armour, putrid protection, lucky charm, Wizard Adept, Occultism
    476 - 41x Plague Brotherhood, M, C
    509 - 27x Vermin Guard, M, S, Lightning Rod
    140 - 20x Giant Rats
    90 - 2x Rat Swarms
    295 - 2x4 Vermin Hulks
    170 - 2x8 Plague Disciples
    290 - 2x1 Dreadmill
    4500

    Polish Vermin ETC list wrote:

    800 - Vermin Deamon, General
    715 - Magister Master, Doom Bell, Light Armour, Master, Thaumaturgy
    275 - Chief, BSB, Heavy Armour, Shield, Lightning Rod
    564 - 32x Vermin Guard, M, S, C, Banner of the Endless Swarm
    288 - 26x Rats-at-Arms, M, S, C
    140 - 10x Footpads, M
    140 - 20x Giant Rats
    80 - 10x Giant Rats
    465 - 6x Vermin Hulks, C
    150 - 3x1 Rotary Gun
    290 - 2x1 Dreadmill
    4497
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • Ferkinason wrote:

    Competetive VS lists having no slaves units in it?

    I guess I have been sleeping the last months...
    On base of 25VS PTC / ETC lists:

    On average only one army in three contained just a single unit of Slaves
    On average only two armies in three contained just a single unit of R@A

    however

    On average nine armies in ten contained a unit of Vermin Hulks (basic or updated to thunderhulk standard)
    On average EACH ARMY contained 1.5 unit of footpads 10 strong.
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  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Ciara wrote:

    Im curious about non ogre list. Tigers and gnoblars only core and then fill rest of army with yeti, giants and kin eaters?
    Hmm yeah I've never seen an ogre list with no ogres in core. Sounds funky!

    If there was a better option for a durable bunker outside core, I am certain Ogreless Ogre core would see play. To play a big swarm is dependant on the generals capability to keep the army disciplined.

    To me one of the severe lacks with Vermins attempting swarm tactics is that their options outside bringing big characters are so underwhelming -> army build should be designed to function fairly well even without the general -> you dont want to build swarm.
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Herminard ().

  • JimMorr wrote:

    Ferkinason wrote:

    Competetive VS lists having no slaves units in it?

    I guess I have been sleeping the last months...
    On base of 25VS PTC / ETC lists:
    On average only one army in three contained just a single unit of Slaves
    On average only two armies in three contained just a single unit of R@A

    however

    On average nine armies in ten contained a unit of Vermin Hulks (basic or updated to thunderhulk standard)
    On average EACH ARMY contained 1.5 unit of footpads 10 strong.

    And only Serbia (45) and Slovenia (2x40) - of all ETC teams - brought Vermin Slaves.
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • Herminard wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Ciara wrote:

    Im curious about non ogre list. Tigers and gnoblars only core and then fill rest of army with yeti, giants and kin eaters?
    Hmm yeah I've never seen an ogre list with no ogres in core. Sounds funky!
    If there was a better option for a durable bunker outside core, I am certain Ogreless Ogre core would see play. To play a big swarm is dependant on the generals capability to keep the army disciplined. Having the general and bsb run around bunkerless defeats that purpose.
    8 merc vets is a pretty decent "bunker" right?!
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018
  • Herminard wrote:

    To play a big swarm is dependant on the generals capability to keep the army disciplined.
    It depends even more on swarm ability to deal damage. VS have one of the best bubble Ld Around but playing swarm is just no option for rats. This one was not a joke:
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  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    If there was a better option for a durable bunker outside core, I am certain Ogreless Ogre core would see play. To play a big swarm is dependant on the generals capability to keep the army disciplined. Having the general and bsb run around bunkerless defeats that purpose.
    8 merc vets is a pretty decent "bunker" right?!

    Find the keyword
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • Calisson wrote:

    Sorry, but strangely, what you seem to regret from T9A is not what the project is doing.

    - we're not trying to homogenize armies, that is the opposite. However, the armies you use as examples are still in their initial state, inspired heavily from legacy. They should get a complete overhaul in the years to come, and this overhaul will definitively give them unique strengths and weaknesses compared to other armies. What you deplore, we deplore as well. But there is no magic to change it brutally overnight.

    - the rules which we will publish before the end of the year will be permanent. No change at all for the coming years.
    Note that I am talking about the core rules, not the army books.
    The army books will see minor changes of point costs, and exactly one major overhaul per army book within the next five years.
    So stability is a goal, which we are close to implement.

    We're not "trying" to homogenize armies, but it's definitely because of official T9A policy.

    Specifically, flat-costing units, trying to make them all "equally viable" for "great internal balance".


    In reality, because one of the drivers is "is no one playing it? Better cut points!" and "is it seeing tonnes of play? Better nerf it and raise points!", what actually happens is that units that people already have and want to play get priced high, and units nobody actually owned and didn't get into the army for get inched down.


    But even beyond that, it's a bad idea.


    Efficiency should be a reward for playing an army the way it's supposed to be played. The units that people want to play with and against should be the ones that are costed aggressively.

    We'll focus on the one FAB: WDG Warriors (the core unit) should be much cheaper in large units than they are. Foot Lords should be an absolute bargain. Chosen actually are somewhat pushed, so that part is acceptable.


    Mobility wins on the top tables, yet for some reason nobody ever translates that into "we should nerf fast units and make them less of a great pick". Wonder why...

    Background Team

  • Herminard wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    If there was a better option for a durable bunker outside core, I am certain Ogreless Ogre core would see play. To play a big swarm is dependant on the generals capability to keep the army disciplined. Having the general and bsb run around bunkerless defeats that purpose.
    8 merc vets is a pretty decent "bunker" right?!
    Find the keyword
    with plate and ironfist they're 24 T4 3+ save wounds. I mean, is that not durable enough? honest question
    Take a look at my painted army so far. Feel free to share a pic of yours!

    Pics of my ever expanding warriors army

    WastelandWarrior Painting League 2018
  • What I don't really appreciate is one person coming out of nowhere, and suddenly posting one single huge post about problems that can be easily fixed and probably have been noticed a long time ago by other people, and for this reason sending T9A to doom.

    You could just have gone into the VS Army section and asked the people there if anyone else had noticed the issue and what is being considered ?
    Then posted another post in the OK Army section, same thing.

    Instead you're just here to slander the work that's been done, as if we were all morons here, shouting and then slamming the door.

    You want to help us improve ? Fine, join the team.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • JimMorr wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    To play a big swarm is dependant on the generals capability to keep the army disciplined.
    It depends even more on swarm ability to deal damage. VS have one of the best bubble Ld Around but playing swarm is just no option for rats. This one was not a joke.

    If you play a swarm, you want to have a big discipline bubble. There are 3 ways you can do this:

    - disc 9 vermin gd
    - disc 6/7 magister on bell
    - disc 7/8 tyrant on litter

    The latter is cheap and does not carry a , but once you start fleshing out 2 adepts or a master to have a magic phase - you realize there are no low cost effective builds to support a swarm build and that magic support is also quite lacking, and that aside from discipline - there are zilch passive buffs and nada hex contributions from the Tyrant.

    His bruiser setups are also very lacking.

    But .. I do agree that the inefficiency of the character setup for swarm support could well be ignored if the swarm itself was well functioning, and I agree that is also not the case.
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    You could just have gone into the VS Army section and asked the people there if anyone else had noticed the issue and what is being considered ?
    Issue has been noticed in VS and answered by important member of Team responsible for communication Community-Project as quoted in post no 2. That's all on the subject of 'problems that can be easily fixed'. There are no problems.
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  • WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    WastelandWarrior wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    If there was a better option for a durable bunker outside core, I am certain Ogreless Ogre core would see play. To play a big swarm is dependant on the generals capability to keep the army disciplined. Having the general and bsb run around bunkerless defeats that purpose.
    8 merc vets is a pretty decent "bunker" right?!
    Find the keyword
    with plate and ironfist they're 24 T4 3+ save wounds. I mean, is that not durable enough? honest question

    Thats a fair question.
    But as a 850-1000 points bunker depending on command and banner options - it is not small points.

    Solutions like getting TowerShields (+2 armor vs ranged) for 1 point per model instead of IronFists for 12ppm could have helped them become a durable bunker for their cost, if that is something T9A should ever want Ogres to field for standoff games.

    Ghiznuk wrote:

    What I don't really appreciate is one person coming out of nowhere, and suddenly posting one single huge post about problems that can be easily fixed and probably have been noticed a long time ago by other people...


    ...


    You want to help us improve ? Fine, join the team.

    I think the OP is quite clear that he is giving an outburst of feelings.
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling