Spoilers for 2.05 in the Empire of Sonnstahl

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  • Herminard wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Erm... I never said anything about teams, did I?
    I agree that it shouldn't be priced for teams. I think that is the consensus internally too.
    I don't understand why we are now talking about teams?
    :)

    You did not.

    But the smirking argument that was presented to you was coming from a teams setting, its appeal to authority fallacy was hugely bolstered by the Spanish achievements in this years ETC and the EoS posters arguments in support of the claim speak of its use in a teams setting.

    Unless you subscribe to Clausewitz - there are better ways of solving this gordian knot :)
    I believe the claims made to me internally all applied to a singles context.
    There was no argument to authority. I think people are misunderstanding why I brought Spain up.
    It was specifically because of claims made internally about Spain and how they contrasted with views expressed here by a Spanish poster.
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • Herminard wrote:

    Konrad von Richtmark wrote:

    I don't. I bring enough units (afforded by keeping cost per unit low and having few characters) and deploy a wide enough front that my opponent will be the one who has to worry about being flanked :P
    I have not played nor seen flank rolling EoS in 204/205. Can you still make it work?
    To my misfortune, I have been bereft of opportunities to play during that time. I did recently get to play against a Dwarf army that tried a refused centre and a pincer attack against my usual shooty counterpunch alternating line. I riposted against one of the pincer arms by making a counterthrust through the centre and flanking it from the inside, and shot up the other pincer arm to the point that I was in a position to overrun part of it and envelop the deathstar that remained. My opponent conceded though before that could happen, and I do not begrudge him for it, his position had really fallen that badly apart.



    Not sure that matches what you count as flank rolling though.
    Sunna is not with the big battalions, but with the ones whose parts move with the best coordination.
  • Herminard wrote:



    Also - I know that EoS have some rather evil builds yet unexplored - and I am not going to help out exploring them.

    #makeEoSfightagain


    As the maiden-fair at the festival fair dos declare, Oh @Herminard wherefore art thou Herminard. I find the musings of the turbulent Hyperborian, with his spewing of sumptuous splendor, as exasperating as in yonder day of a bygone era.


    Be it of no little feet that here to dos I proclaim! For armies of such indolence and yet of such artesian complexity, I have long pondered. That I dare exclaim “For I too Knoweth of them and their actuality. Yet I also find the utterance of such fancy to be the squabbling of less folk.


    -Cort


    #MakeTheForumEsotericAgain
  • DanT wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Erm... I never said anything about teams, did I?
    I agree that it shouldn't be priced for teams. I think that is the consensus internally too.
    I don't understand why we are now talking about teams?
    :)
    You did not.

    But the smirking argument that was presented to you was coming from a teams setting, its appeal to authority fallacy was hugely bolstered by the Spanish achievements in this years ETC and the EoS posters arguments in support of the claim speak of its use in a teams setting.

    Unless you subscribe to Clausewitz - there are better ways of solving this gordian knot :)
    I believe the claims made to me internally all applied to a singles context.There was no argument to authority. I think people are misunderstanding why I brought Spain up.
    It was specifically because of claims made internally about Spain and how they contrasted with views expressed here by a Spanish poster.

    To arrest the validity of an argument of

    "the current member of the relevant teams who is most pushing increases on the steam tank is Spanish, and he informs us that the steam tank is totally auto-include and that it is considered to be the best model in the game, and that not putting it up in points would cause the Spanish community to laugh at us."

    as a false narrative fallacy and that the Spanish community holds more than one voice on the subject?

    Really? Then I would say that the community of humanistic tradition is homoculturally laughing at that statement in a way that transcends dialectics.

    If you look at the argument of @atreyuk he is arguing that the _situation_ that EoS is supposed to counter is getting tilted a little less in favour of the EoS by highlighting an instance where the opponent was untouched by cost increases and his build was.

    This instance of a situation is also argued from a teams setting, as it is the more common situation for EoS to seek in a teams setting. Look at the Groefte vs Furion matchup from ETC for similar reference.

    From a singles perspective - the small nerf to the tank to the no nerf to powerful single units mashup is quite irrelevant - since EoS will still have a fair upper hand in this situation.

    So even if you are not arguing the situation from a teams perspective - I feel confident that a majority of the argument is rooted from a teams perspective.

    Disagree?
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • @Herminard
    I never argued the tank should have gone up in points or said that was my reason for thinking so.

    I was merely contrasting what I had been told internally with what the Spanish poster in this thread said, in order to clarify my own understanding of the Spanish meta and the broad direction of views within it.

    That is all.

    I don't see how anything you have said is relevant to that discussion.
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • Cortrillion wrote:

    Yet I also find the utterance of such fancy to be the squabbling of less folk.

    Well ye wiffel-waffeling driggle-draggle callin da savage sages scores fer sotspeak??
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Herminard ().

  • DanT wrote:

    @Herminard
    I never argued the tank should have gone up in points or said that was my reason for thinking so.

    I was merely contrasting what I had been told internally with what the Spanish poster in this thread said, in order to clarify my own understanding of the Spanish meta and the broad direction of views within it.

    That is all.

    I don't see how anything you have said is relevant to that discussion.

    I agree you did not.

    If all you were after was a broader view of the Spanish meta, then my arguments on wether the new or the old price was the correct one were indeed a swing and a miss.

    Since I am indeed not a member of the spanish community - I then concur my views irrelevant.

    Edit: I understand we were talking past each other. Pardon the cheaper of my rethorical shots.
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Herminard ().

  • Konrad von Richtmark wrote:

    To my misfortune, I have been bereft of opportunities to play during that time. I did recently get to play against a Dwarf army that tried a refused centre and a pincer attack against my usual shooty counterpunch alternating line. I riposted against one of the pincer arms by making a counterthrust through the centre and flanking it from the inside, and shot up the other pincer arm to the point that I was in a position to overrun part of it and envelop the deathstar that remained. My opponent conceded though before that could happen, and I do not begrudge him for it, his position had really fallen that badly apart.


    Not sure that matches what you count as flank rolling though.

    While the western centre -> flank lateral manouver is a nice one - it is not an enveloping manouver.

    The situation you describe on the eastern flank looks like it could be? To me it looks like he is eating alot of lead trying to reach your battle line. I assume you would shove the guards in his face and prepare a support charge with the halberds -> his numbers being so low that he would get ground down by the volume of S4 attacks.

    Since your formation here is .. like a falcon wing - weaker closer to the head - strongest at the shoulder - leaning outwards and a little backwards - the Demigryphs would be in an ample position for rolling a flank. In this case they are clearly positioned as counterpunching guards/anchor of the backline, but once preassure is no longer there...

    Something like 5-6 GW kniggits with a complete command group (that are not at all as much cheaper as 3 gryphs as they should be) - in a narrow formation - could probably also turn that flank (preferably _after_ the Kings Guards are so committed that they are fully exposed to the shooting) - and join in on the fight vs the Kings Guard.

    That all gets a little hypothetical and "what if" ofc.

    Overall yer battle line does not follow the principles of TVI - since you are not using the pull force of the warmachines to force combat - but instead use the battle line as a cover for the shooting and rely on the shooting doing the majority of the work.

    It is a decent counterpunching line though. Would like to see the line being more alternating. You leave little space for shifting around to the Main Brick and Support and Anchor when you deploy as congested as that -> static play.

    Cheers!
    Make T9A armies clash again! #BringBackBattlelines

    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    For questions of tactics, The Savage Arts of Playtrolling
  • @Herminard, actually, the halberdier units were parent units, starting size 25 each. The handgunner and crossbow units were 15 each, the only support units I had. Their countercharge threat is meant to be part of the counterpunch. It was an alternating line at deployment, then one of the halberdier units broke out of formation to do that swing across the centre. It took two turns of marching under At the Double! to make it into position to charge on my third turn.

    You are right regarding the right flank. The gryphknights held back to stay out of the range of organ guns that had deployed on that hill, ones that I finally managed to shut down on my third turn. If the game had continued, they would have moved up to ride over the dwarf warriors facing them, who'd been shot up to the degree that they should be easy prey. Then, it'd been delaying and shooting the deathstar while setting up a triple charge by imperial guard, halberdiers and gryphknights to finish them off, preferably all to different sides of it. I'd call that a good day's work of envelopment.
    Sunna is not with the big battalions, but with the ones whose parts move with the best coordination.
  • greentide wrote:

    Elijah wrote:

    I thought the altar would get channel (1)?
    Must be a kind of misunderstand, cause it has been asked before.To clarify: It doesn´t give "channel".
    The prelate himself does and the other two arcane engines.
    Remember those days when our bald dude on the war altar would add 2 dispel dice to the army? xD ah... such nostalgia :) i miss the good old S6 council of light banishment as well :(
    If you find violence isn't the answer, you're simply not being violent enough.
  • greentide wrote:

    Aramir wrote:

    i miss the good old S6 council of light banishment as well
    Me too. But 15 other armies are relieved it´s gone ^^ It was probably too game dediding and lethal, like the dreaded 13th, the stupid purple Sun and dumb dwellers...
    "What's that? you invested 1000pts in magic? ...well I got these cheap dispel dice from these semi combat characters who give hatred to my unit :D "
    ...then you look at Ogres army and complain that Empire was underpowered. lol.
  • MMIIINNNNDDDDDWWWWWAAAZZZOOOORRRRRRR!
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • herrEckart wrote:

    I miss ,Ocams Mindrazor!
    Oh those halberdiers with hate.... NO BRAKES ON THE R.... EMPIRE TRAIN! >; )

    Also those pit of shades... they were the bane of my khemri enemies ;) those bones didn't felt so brave with a large template scattered up on their initiative 2's boney rears... >: )
    If you find violence isn't the answer, you're simply not being violent enough.