.205 Warriors of the Dark Gods

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  • Krokz wrote:

    yedee wrote:

    Does substituting an actually uselful rule (re-roll break tests and later re-roll marches) for that mariginal "flavour rule" warrants any price decrease?
    It did? If not enough it will in next update.
    Not going to argue about that since pricing policy is a big mystery to me. I was just under the impression that those humble point drops on some HFA units were supposed to be minor buffs and not price correction for losing useful rules... At least it was portrayed this way in the spoilers.
  • yedee wrote:

    Not going to argue about that since pricing policy is a big mystery to me. I was just under the impression that those humble point drops on some HFA units were supposed to be minor buffs and not price correction for losing useful rules... At least it was portrayed this way in the spoilers.
    WDG did not get a proper price adjustment after loosing reroll Breaks and that is the main culprit for army becoming bottom tier.
    But that is my personal opinion not shared by all internally.
    Army Design Team.
  • The now extinct BLT believed that in this army the re-roll march tests was worth more than re-roll break tests.
    You would have to approach them to understand why they think this.

    Interestingly, one of them who had this opinion has a youtube channel, perhaps someone could ask him to cover it on his channel?
    That might be enlightening for us all.
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • @DanT
    If old BLT did not lower prices enough because they felt reroll March is at least as strong as reroll Break, and now new RT didn't do it* when reroll March was removed, what does this mean?

    *Great Weapon Warriors still cost the same
    Warrior Knights lost Spiked Shield AND reroll March AND were not played in bottom army: 8% price decrease
    Army Design Team.
  • Krokz wrote:

    @DanT
    If old BLT did not lower prices enough because they felt reroll March is at least as strong as reroll Break, and now new RT didn't do it* when reroll March was removed, what does this mean?

    *Great Weapon Warriors still cost the same
    Warrior Knights lost Spiked Shield AND reroll March AND were not played in bottom army: 8% price decrease
    I explicitly brought this up on RT meeting.
    You'll have to ask the rest of RT, cos I'm not sure I really understood their answer.
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • DanT wrote:

    Krokz wrote:

    @DanT
    If old BLT did not lower prices enough because they felt reroll March is at least as strong as reroll Break, and now new RT didn't do it* when reroll March was removed, what does this mean?

    *Great Weapon Warriors still cost the same
    Warrior Knights lost Spiked Shield AND reroll March AND were not played in bottom army: 8% price decrease
    I explicitly brought this up on RT meeting.You'll have to ask the rest of RT, cos I'm not sure I really understood their answer.
    Now that you mentioned it: is there any chance the RT will give any public explanation on that? @DanT are you at liberty to tell us how they answered your question?
  • yedee wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Krokz wrote:

    @DanT
    If old BLT did not lower prices enough because they felt reroll March is at least as strong as reroll Break, and now new RT didn't do it* when reroll March was removed, what does this mean?

    *Great Weapon Warriors still cost the same
    Warrior Knights lost Spiked Shield AND reroll March AND were not played in bottom army: 8% price decrease
    I explicitly brought this up on RT meeting.You'll have to ask the rest of RT, cos I'm not sure I really understood their answer.
    Now that you mentioned it: is there any chance the RT will give any public explanation on that? @DanT are you at liberty to tell us how they answered your question?
    Dno.
    I think the answer was basically that we should evaluate where we are right now and act accordingly. I.e. look at where things are in 204, evaluate the 205 changes relative to 204, take into account usage and performance in 204, and change the prices in line with this.
    I.e. there is no "history" to the process.
    Don't quote me on this though, cos I'm relying on faulty memory here, and even at the time I wasn't sure I understood.
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • (Not full RT response, but I can give my view)

    Looking at 0.201 prices of warriors (with reroll break, two support attacks, no favours etc), comparing it to current price, and then drawing conclusion that 0.205 warriors should be cheaper has one major flaw in its reasoning: It assumes that 0.201 warriors were correctly priced. We don't know if that is true or not. We don't have a lot of data on it, and the data is outdated and done against armies in a different meta.

    What we do however have data on is the state of warriors in 0.204. This was the starting point used for updating price on them in 0.205.
    So basically we look at current state of book/units and update from there. Not much attention is given to the history.


    The process went something like this:
    Step1: Update prices of WDG entries based on 204 designs and the external+internal balance of this version of the book. Here most entries were made cheaper (the book was externally weak). Less used entries got bigger price cuts than more used entries. The most used entries got no price cut or even in a few places price increases.
    Warriors got a small price decrease. Small because they were used quite a lot, indicating they were internally strong.

    Step2: Update prices of WDG entries based in redesigns. Everything that is affected by redesigns becomes cheaper or more expensive, depending on if redesigns makes them stronger or weaker.
    Here warriors got small drop again, because the net effect of the changes on them was seen as making them slightly weaker.



    The power level shift that comes with the removal of reroll break test is dependent in the unit. Some units don't care at all (warrior chariots). Other care quite a bit, such as skywheel or chosen knights. The effect of this can be seen quite clearly on chosen knights I think. They were one of the most used units in 0.204 (arguably undercosted), and they still become cheaper.
    - Head of Rules Team -
    - Assistant Head of Rules Clarity Team-
  • Wait, what? Chosen knights are cheaper? Some favours droped in price but they generally are more expensive now.

    So according to what you say the price of the warriors got lowered twice (step 1 and 2) and still they ended costing just 1ppm less (apart from
    great weapon ones who stayed the same)?

    What about warrior knights?

    Don't you think that it's kind of pointless to keep internally strong choices (as supposedly warriors are) without changes while the army externaly is lower tier and needs buffs? This way of reasoning will make (at best!) an internally balanced army that is still weak, am I right?

    I hope I don't sound rude, I'm just genuinely interested in finding out how all of that works.
  • fjugin wrote:

    The power level shift that comes with the removal of reroll break test is dependent in the unit. Some units don't care at all (warrior chariots). Other care quite a bit, such as skywheel or chosen knights.
    Are you sure about that? Because I stopped using Chariots after reroll Break was removed. Reroll Break helped their staying power after Charging, I used them as tarpits. Warrior Chariot usually loose combat by 1 or 2, not more, and here Break rerolls help immensely.

    While Chosen Knights do not care much about reroll Break as they almost never loose a fight to begin with, if they do, you are probably left with 1 model any way (because they have so much damage output, that if enemy had beaten you in Combat Score he had to kill at least 2 Chosen Knights models).
    Army Design Team.
  • Krokz wrote:

    fjugin wrote:

    The power level shift that comes with the removal of reroll break test is dependent in the unit. Some units don't care at all (warrior chariots). Other care quite a bit, such as skywheel or chosen knights.
    Are you sure about that? Because I stopped using Chariots after reroll Break was removed. Reroll Break helped their staying power after Charging, I used them as tarpits. Warrior Chariot usually loose combat by 1 or 2, not more, and here Break rerolls help immensely.
    While Chosen Knights do not care much about reroll Break as they almost never loose a fight to begin with, if they do, you are probably left with 1 model any way (because they have so much damage output, that if enemy had beaten you in Combat Score he had to kill at least 2 Chosen Knights models).
    I think he meant re-roll marches from 2.04.
  • yedee wrote:

    I hope I don't sound rude, I'm just genuinely interested in finding out how all of that works.
    After getting data report like what is used and not used plus army and unit tiers from 25+ External Experts, something like more than 10 people blindly priced every price point entry you see in WDG book (blindly means they didn't saw what others put in as price). Medians were formed and RT voted on them, mostly passing them.
    So each individual could had their own reasons why he priced something like he did. There is no singular reason or method for any single price on a certain unit.
    Army Design Team.
  • Krokz wrote:

    yedee wrote:

    I hope I don't sound rude, I'm just genuinely interested in finding out how all of that works.
    After getting data report like what is used and not used plus army and unit tiers from 25+ External Experts, something like more than 10 people blindly priced every price point entry you see in WDG book (blindly means they didn't saw what others put in as price). Medians were formed and RT voted on them, mostly passing them.So each individual could had their own reasons why he priced something like he did. There is no singular reason or method for any single price on a certain unit.
    Who are those 25+ External Experts if I may ask?
  • yedee wrote:

    Krokz wrote:

    fjugin wrote:

    The power level shift that comes with the removal of reroll break test is dependent in the unit. Some units don't care at all (warrior chariots). Other care quite a bit, such as skywheel or chosen knights.
    Are you sure about that? Because I stopped using Chariots after reroll Break was removed. Reroll Break helped their staying power after Charging, I used them as tarpits. Warrior Chariot usually loose combat by 1 or 2, not more, and here Break rerolls help immensely.While Chosen Knights do not care much about reroll Break as they almost never loose a fight to begin with, if they do, you are probably left with 1 model any way (because they have so much damage output, that if enemy had beaten you in Combat Score he had to kill at least 2 Chosen Knights models).
    I think he meant re-roll marches from 2.04.
    yes, sorry. I meant re-roll march tests
    - Head of Rules Team -
    - Assistant Head of Rules Clarity Team-
  • yedee wrote:

    Who are those 25+ External Experts if I may ask?
    AFAIK best tournament players in the world from various countries, usually top ETC players, which are personally contacted (since vast majority of players are not on this forum or part of T9A staff, this is why "external") to help the cause. @DanT can correct me if I am wrong
    Army Design Team.
  • Krokz wrote:

    yedee wrote:

    Who are those 25+ External Experts if I may ask?
    AFAIK best tournament players in the world from various countries, usually top ETC players, which are personally contacted (since vast majority of players are not on this forum or part of T9A staff, this is why "external") to help the cause. @DanT can correct me if I am wrong
    So an anonimous group of individuals is behind all that pricing? :D That does sound convienient, doesn't it?

    I know it's probably not a place for this kind of discussion, so feel free to delete it.
  • Krokz wrote:

    yedee wrote:

    Who are those 25+ External Experts if I may ask?
    AFAIK best tournament players in the world from various countries, usually top ETC players, which are personally contacted (since vast majority of players are not on this forum or part of T9A staff, this is why "external") to help the cause. @DanT can correct me if I am wrong
    Correct. I actually don't know who they are though.


    yedee wrote:

    So an anonimous group of individuals is behind all that pricing? :D That does sound convienient, doesn't it?
    I know it's probably not a place for this kind of discussion, so feel free to delete it.

    But ultimately they have no formal power, and are primarily a sanity check for RT decision making. RT can choose to ignore anything that EE says, and can (and has) voted to not use their prices.
    If you disagree with the pricing, your beef is with RT, not EE.
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?