Why we play this game?

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The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

  • Why we play this game?

    Yesterday I came across this nice article:

    tileansword.wordpress.com/2018…838KEONz93aKQudJYFtPqpDbE

    It reminded me why I play this strange game. Especially now, in an era where everybody seems more focused on rules, points, balance, tournaments more than having nice epic battles and have fun with their friends. Don't misunderstand me, balance rules helps in having fun, but they are a mean, not the goal.
    In recent tournaments I've seen a guy proxing an entire empire army with chaos miniatures, crappy self-made models have popped up everywhere, I've seen.. 2D scenaries. Guys, how ugly are 2D scenaries? To me, those are the symbol of everything we shouldn't do.

    I think we should go back to the origins and remember why we started :)

    Sam
  • I play (rather occasional) for the possibility to paint miniatures :D But also 9th because I like the project and the possibilities with it, I'm 32 and will be along for some time, so if I can help with just 0,008% of a game thats free and can inspire more people to push plastic (and metallic) toys across a grassridden landscape I'm all for it.
  • I'm with you on that one. If there's two games, and one has better rules and the other has nicer models, I'll play the one with the nicer models. And if I could play two people and one of them has gorgeous scenery, but wants to play a system I don't like much, I'd still rather play that player than someone who plays without scenery, but a system I prefer.

    Honestly, that moment a month or two ago when I saw the gallery of some major 9th age tournament and people were playing with 2D print-outs of terrain was the moment I thought that maybe this system just wasn't for me and would never be for me.
  • Eldan wrote:


    Honestly, that moment a month or two ago when I saw the gallery of some major 9th age tournament and people were playing with 2D print-outs of terrain was the moment I thought that maybe this system just wasn't for me and would never be for me.
    Isn't that like saying:

    "I don't like how corrupt FIFA is and what professional football has become, so now I won't touch a ball even at my local club or backyard"?

    9th Age creates a system for us to use and play against people we don't know and may not ever meet again, but we're free to do with it as we will

    I commonly play custom scenarios and random happenings and when someones for giggles made a small unit of Rats-at-at-arms riding Giant Rats (and came up with some rules) I was the first to say go for it.

    Tournaments places all sorts of constraints such as time (I can either hear your army background and house rules or we can play a game), terrain available (do you have enough terrain to support 10, 20, 30 tables?) and it represents the competitive aspect of the hobby. All in all I think your criticism is pretty misplaced
  • SaM wrote:

    everybody seems more focused on rules, points, balance, tournaments more than having nice epic battles and have fun with their friends.
    The key word is "seems".
    I can testify that it is not reality, only your perception.
    Note, I don't blame you, there are solid grounds for that perception.
    But people in T9A team are actively working to give more grounds to dispute that perception.

    Oh, and by the way, the last time I've bought fantasy models, that was the game Dreadfleet. Obviously not for the rules, points, balance or tournament.

    Social Media Team

    UN Coordinator, aka UNSG

    - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
  • Wesser wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    Honestly, that moment a month or two ago when I saw the gallery of some major 9th age tournament and people were playing with 2D print-outs of terrain was the moment I thought that maybe this system just wasn't for me and would never be for me.
    Isn't that like saying:
    "I don't like how corrupt FIFA is and what professional football has become, so now I won't touch a ball even at my local club or backyard"?

    9th Age creates a system for us to use and play against people we don't know and may not ever meet again, but we're free to do with it as we will

    I commonly play custom scenarios and random happenings and when someones for giggles made a small unit of Rats-at-at-arms riding Giant Rats (and came up with some rules) I was the first to say go for it.

    Tournaments places all sorts of constraints such as time (I can either hear your army background and house rules or we can play a game), terrain available (do you have enough terrain to support 10, 20, 30 tables?) and it represents the competitive aspect of the hobby. All in all I think your criticism is pretty misplaced
    Yes, but there is always the feeling that the system is created by tournament players. And pictures like that, proudly posted on the title page, don't help with that. I mean, I've played on kitchen tables with shoeboxes for terrain, but that was as a novice player, before I had the time and money to properly invest in the game. Presumably, tournaments are special occasions for players who have invested a lot of time and effort to get good at this game. Why that kind of player would play with unpainted minis or without a proper table is almost entirely incomprehensible to me

    My club tried Ninth Age for a few months and one in-store tournament, but they dropped it again. Too many rules, too restrictive, too streamlined, not enough interesting stuff, nothing new over the Warhammer system. And this kind of thing massively contributes to that perception.
  • Eldan wrote:

    Wesser wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    Honestly, that moment a month or two ago when I saw the gallery of some major 9th age tournament and people were playing with 2D print-outs of terrain was the moment I thought that maybe this system just wasn't for me and would never be for me.
    Isn't that like saying:"I don't like how corrupt FIFA is and what professional football has become, so now I won't touch a ball even at my local club or backyard"?

    9th Age creates a system for us to use and play against people we don't know and may not ever meet again, but we're free to do with it as we will

    I commonly play custom scenarios and random happenings and when someones for giggles made a small unit of Rats-at-at-arms riding Giant Rats (and came up with some rules) I was the first to say go for it.

    Tournaments places all sorts of constraints such as time (I can either hear your army background and house rules or we can play a game), terrain available (do you have enough terrain to support 10, 20, 30 tables?) and it represents the competitive aspect of the hobby. All in all I think your criticism is pretty misplaced
    Yes, but there is always the feeling that the system is created by tournament players. And pictures like that, proudly posted on the title page, don't help with that. I mean, I've played on kitchen tables with shoeboxes for terrain, but that was as a novice player, before I had the time and money to properly invest in the game. Presumably, tournaments are special occasions for players who have invested a lot of time and effort to get good at this game. Why that kind of player would play with unpainted minis or without a proper table is almost entirely incomprehensible to me
    My club tried Ninth Age for a few months and one in-store tournament, but they dropped it again. Too many rules, too restrictive, too streamlined, not enough interesting stuff, nothing new over the Warhammer system. And this kind of thing massively contributes to that perception.
    I too enjoy playing with painted models despite my lack of ability in that area, but I won't try to push my perceptions on every other player... and besides many tournaments have painting rules/paint scores.

    As for your other criticisms.... perhaps I'll say. Sounds like your group is more into D&D than miniature wargaming. Compared to Warhammer I'm rolling a lot fewer 4+ to decide stuff so streamlining is fine by me
  • Some of us are into D&D, yeah, (me included, though we mostly play other RPGs), but interestingly, we play that without any miniatures, battlemap or anything else along those lines. There, they just get in the way.
  • SaM wrote:

    Yesterday I came across this nice article:

    tileansword.wordpress.com/2018…838KEONz93aKQudJYFtPqpDbE

    It reminded me why I play this strange game. Especially now, in an era where everybody seems more focused on rules, points, balance, tournaments more than having nice epic battles and have fun with their friends. Don't misunderstand me, balance rules helps in having fun, but they are a mean, not the goal.
    In recent tournaments I've seen a guy proxing an entire empire army with chaos miniatures, crappy self-made models have popped up everywhere, I've seen.. 2D scenaries. Guys, how ugly are 2D scenaries? To me, those are the symbol of everything we shouldn't do.

    I think we should go back to the origins and remember why we started :)

    Sam
    2D scenery/terrain is actually optimal for playing the game.
    Nice printed mats can look decent and serve the purpose. If you want to have a nice looking table that is another thing. But 2D terrain requires less work, is less hassle and you can store enough terrain to fill a planet in your drawer.
    It's okay, it has frenzy.

    Just Flank It © KoE - Tactics 101
  • But T9A does not force any kind of terrain on you, right? I prefer 3D terrain too, but I understand that a 2D footprint is very convenient in a tournament where time to play is limited. The best compromise I found for this is to put the 3D terrain on top of the 2D footprint.
    "It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was Us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things."
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!
  • Fact : T9A gives more importance to the rules than to to the fluff because their authors have decided so, and they probably decided so because they find it more fun that way.

    So why exactly people keep asking to change it radically to fit their view ? I mean the world is big, there are a lot of wargames and form of entertainment that give more importance to fluff over rules, you can even start your own project if you find all of them lacking.

    Also what all of that have to do with the fact that some people doesn't like painting miniature/terrain like you do ? I for example play only on tabletop simulator because (between other things) i'm not a fan of painting minis, this makes me an example of what a gamer shouldn't be ?
    And where do you draw the line ? If someone has bought it's complete army already assembled and painted what kind of gamers he is ?
  • Because there is a disconnect between what the project leadership says the game is and what it actually comes across as. They don't come out and say that this is a rules system streamlined and balanced for tournaments and that if there will ever be much fluff, it's a secondary concern. And they do make recruitment efforts towards new players and warhammer returners.

    And also, before I started coming here regularly, I had no concept or context for some of the players I see here. I had no idea that there are people who don't paint their miniatures, not because they didn't have time yet, but because they don't care. Or people who play with flat terrain. Or people who don't read fluff. I find it a fascinating ecosystem.
  • Chack wrote:

    Fact : T9A gives more importance to the rules than to to the fluff because their authors have decided so,
    and they probably decided so because they find it more fun convenient that way.
    Corrected for you.
    It was decided to start with rules, because that was faster to deliver and it would satisfy quickly a large number of players who had no alternative.
    What is in preparation for the coming years is that all new AB will be driven by background.
    In the long term, fluff will have more importance than rules, because fluff will be the common factor across many games, which don't share rules.

    Social Media Team

    UN Coordinator, aka UNSG

    - druchii.net contribution: The 9th Age - Dread Elves
  • Well in this case i suppose that Eldan is right in stating that

    Eldan wrote:

    There is a disconnect between what the project leadership says the game is and what it actually comes across as.
    @Calisson Reading what you just said one could be lead to think that, for example, the "rule of cool" would be held in greater regard than balance when designing a new unit, but from my experience with the project i would be extremely sceptical about that.
  • It's a statement we've seen a lot in many variations, and I'm very skeptical of it. "Rules now, fluff later".

    The thing is, we have seen plenty of the first, but not a lot hinting at the second happening any time soon. Currently, we seem to be bottoming out a bit in terms of stripping fun, but complicated rules from things to create balance, but we don't yet really see much design that seems background-driven.
  • SaM wrote:

    Yesterday I came across this nice article:

    tileansword.wordpress.com/2018…838KEONz93aKQudJYFtPqpDbE

    It reminded me why I play this strange game. Especially now, in an era where everybody seems more focused on rules, points, balance, tournaments more than having nice epic battles and have fun with their friends. Don't misunderstand me, balance rules helps in having fun, but they are a mean, not the goal.
    In recent tournaments I've seen a guy proxing an entire empire army with chaos miniatures, crappy self-made models have popped up everywhere, I've seen.. 2D scenaries. Guys, how ugly are 2D scenaries? To me, those are the symbol of everything we shouldn't do.

    I think we should go back to the origins and remember why we started :)

    Sam
    I think the key point is that we all started and continued for different reasons.
    WFB was optimal for no-one and good enough for everyone.
    Almost any rival to it emphasises one aspect, making it better for some people and worse for others.

    I'm having more fun with my hobby than in a long time:
    I've been inspired to start a new army, I've met new local players to play against and I have some great stories from last weekend to tell people about.

    Wesser wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    Honestly, that moment a month or two ago when I saw the gallery of some major 9th age tournament and people were playing with 2D print-outs of terrain was the moment I thought that maybe this system just wasn't for me and would never be for me.
    Isn't that like saying:
    "I don't like how corrupt FIFA is and what professional football has become, so now I won't touch a ball even at my local club or backyard"?

    9th Age creates a system for us to use and play against people we don't know and may not ever meet again, but we're free to do with it as we will

    I commonly play custom scenarios and random happenings and when someones for giggles made a small unit of Rats-at-at-arms riding Giant Rats (and came up with some rules) I was the first to say go for it.

    Tournaments places all sorts of constraints such as time (I can either hear your army background and house rules or we can play a game), terrain available (do you have enough terrain to support 10, 20, 30 tables?) and it represents the competitive aspect of the hobby. All in all I think your criticism is pretty misplaced
    Exactly. I play tournaments, but I don't consider myself to be a tournament player (some people maybe do consider me to be a tournament player).
    And yet, I can't stand 2d terrain. I think it should die in a fire.
    But, if others want to use it, and enjoy doing so, I am not going to get upset about it. T9a doesn't specify 2d terrain.

    Eldan wrote:

    Because there is a disconnect between what the project leadership says the game is and what it actually comes across as. They don't come out and say that this is a rules system streamlined and balanced for tournaments and that if there will ever be much fluff, it's a secondary concern. And they do make recruitment efforts towards new players and warhammer returners.
    This is a fair criticism. The project has momentum from when it was genuinely more tournament oriented, but that has been shifting. It is just a slow process. The auxiliary books are one way that the project hopes to broaden its appeal. Direction is currently being set internally for future FABs, and whilst I cannot spill secrets that are not mine to spill, I think it is fair to say that the project intends to cater to a wider church in future.
    Given your personal philosophical biases and preferences, I doubt we will ever be better than WFB for you personally. But I hope we can at least make the question a bit harder for you.


    Edit: I personally hope that the new DL book will start to change perceptions. There are some fun things in that I'm not even sure we can balance. But, who cares. They're fun :)
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?

    The post was edited 1 time, last by DanT ().

  • SaM wrote:

    In recent tournaments I've seen a guy proxing an entire empire army with chaos miniatures, crappy self-made models have popped up everywhere, I've seen.. 2D scenaries. Guys, how ugly are 2D scenaries?

    I think we should go back to the origins and remember why we started :)

    Sam
    there are no official miniatures so it is impossible to "proxy" in 9th age. Also i much prefer 2d terrain, cheaper, easier to store, and plays better. Even the people who like 3d terrain just remove the trees from the forest for most of the game anyways. And no more models falling off trays because of a fancy 3d hill.
  • A brief comment on this, that i'm surprised noone else said earlyer:
    I can easily (weel, not easily, but you know what I mean) add some rules to units, use some cool 3d painted scenery and miniatures and create a background for my army for a ninth age game, but it's nearly impossible that i could balance wh40k.

    By that I mean: the main goal of this project is, at least at this stage, balance and rules, but that, be you a "fluffy" or a "tournament" player, is good, because as a player, you can always add fluff, but is really difficult to add balance.

    The only thing that is a problem here are tournaments, where you, as a player, can't bring your scenery and force the opponent to create a background, but in that only context, tournament, is better to have it balanced IMHO. Also there are tournaments out there that rewards painting or even fluff, as other have mentioned.

    So, the "solid" and balanced system is the base stone upon the players that want, are free to add your background, beautiful painting or great tables. That is good for any kind of player I think. Ninth age never prevented me to play a fluffy campaign set in the GW Old World, and I already played two of them. I'm still trying to play a 40k game that doesn't seems unbalanced to me
  • @Litoperez @kollibri@'Eldan' I'm really happy to see other people share this view :)

    Chack wrote:

    So why exactly people keep asking to change it radically to fit their view ? I mean the world is big, there are a lot of wargames and form of entertainment that give more importance to fluff over rules, you can even start your own project if you find all of them lacking.


    Also what all of that have to do with the fact that some people doesn't like painting miniature/terrain like you do ? I for example play only on tabletop simulator because (between other things) i'm not a fan of painting minis, this makes me an example of what a gamer shouldn't be ?
    And where do you draw the line ? If someone has bought it's complete army already assembled and painted what kind of gamers he is ?
    Nobody is asking to change anything to anybody here. I shared an article that was inspiring to me and possibly to other poeple, I don't expect it to be so for everybody. So it's all subjective ;)

    ..oh, except 2d terrains, those objectively sucks :D