ID and DH difference please explain

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    • ID and DH difference please explain

      My infernal Dwarfs are in the mail and I'm trying to figure out the army. But I read the armybook and I can't help but compare to dwarf holds.

      I just don't see the niche that ID have. It just looks like DH can pretty much do everything better except magic.
      I get that armybooks can all build similar lists when you just take basic stuff, but I'm not seeing the differences in the special stuff where IF have something cool or better than DH.
      The Infernal dwarf infantry aren't as good as the DH infantry. IF get hobgoblins but those should be expendablbe because I'm not play O&G here.

      So pretty much the big differences I can see are that ID have that are different than DH and actually do something better are hobgoblins, kadim Incarnates, Armoured Giant.
      Things that are different but not better are a Wizard and the Infernal Engine.
      Which is fine I guess, but it just doesn't feel like it.

      There are a few other things that are different but they aren't good. Mostly because of points.
      Sure there is a Temple Lassamu but that's like 1000pts in 4hp. ...it was hard enough getting a 1000pt elf on a 6 wound dragon to be somewhat viable, I don't see this happening on a weaker stat 4hp dwarf.

      It might sound like I'm poopooing on the army but I'm just stating what I see at face value since I have played against it many times, read the book several times, and not yet played. It's up to the more experienced people to point out the flaws in my argument.


      Question:
      If I want to run my whole army as just the dwarf units, am I better off just using dwarf holds?
    • Well DH have no monsters, while in ID we have them normally and as mounts. So there is no "comparison" on if that is straight up better or not (I wouldn't be the one to suggest a match-up of ID monsters against DH...that will not go well).

      They also have no cavalry, which changes how both armies score completely.

      Really the overall difference is that ID have generally more variety of units than DH. But anything parallel we have with DH is straight up worse or more expensive (because apparently ID are costed like flaming+flammable and Fan the Flames is active in all our units all the time...).

      Peacemaker wrote:

      Question:

      If I want to run my whole army as just the dwarf units, am I better off just using dwarf holds?
      To put it bluntly, yes. DH have better ranged troops, combat infantry, Lord and war machines. If you want to play pure dwarves they are the go to.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Tyranno ().

    • Me and my tired posts. Totally dismissed the mount options and the Tauruks. I guess I was just focusing on the actual dwarf entries and artillery entries and comparing them to Dwarf holds.

      Tyranno wrote:

      Well DH have no monsters, while in ID we have them normally and as mounts. So there is no "comparison" on if that is straight up better or not (I wouldn't be the one to suggest a match-up of ID monsters against DH...that will not go well).
      I noticed this but DH does have Grudge Busters and the gyrocoptors. ...they are different enough that I got no complaints but when you look at the pricing of ID monsters.....I'd rather have a grudge buster.

      Anyway, thanks for the response. Hopefully when the book is redone it is with DH and ID cross comparisons. The elf have kinds done it with their stats basically being the same but enough unique rules/weapons to make effectively different.

      Love to see some more weapon options on the ID. Feels like they are just straight out of legacy while other armies get some options. Paired weapons, halberds, etc...
    • Monsters, Cav, Monstrous Cav, Cheap Chaff Blocks, Monstrous Infantry with Fly and Magic are the main differences
      I am the fat Turk that infiltrated the Norwegian Druid Caste.

      I would have been better than you if I could roll a 4 on 2D6.

      To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of ELVES.

      Sylvan Elves
      Dread Elves
      Beast Herds
      Daemonic Legions
      Warriors of the Dark Gods
      Storm Cast Eternals (WAIT WHAT?)
    • Tyranno wrote:

      But anything parallel we have with DH is straight up worse or more expensive (because apparently ID are costed like flaming+flammable and Fan the Flames is active in all our units all the time...).
      I kinda want the flaming synergies toned down so that power vacuum can be filled by giving more power to regular units. With so much strong flaming stuff the army feels like a one trick pony.
    • Well dwarves and infernal dwarves are a bit like sylvian elves and other elves. Same race and some similar things but not many.

      First of All. Dwarves are one of the most boring armies in the game. If not the most boring army.

      What do we have both in common:
      No minus on stand and shoot
      Marching 9
      Strong amour
      High LD

      What we got what they dont have:
      1. Quick units: Taurukh Annointed, Kadim Incarnates
      2. Magic
      3. Fire Synergie and protection
      4. Agile Warmachines
      5. Monsterous Mounts
      6. Infernal Weapon

      What do dwarves got
      1. Option for more than one Slayer
      2. Better staionary warmachines
      3. Stronger Fighters
      4. Shield walls and sturdy(+1 charge)
      5. Grudes
      6. Runes to powerfull combos
      7. Antimagic

      Also people seem to overvalue some things like shield wall. For instances Immortals to Deep watch. The blessing and possibility to +1 Strength and shield are tactically much better than shield wall.

      Apparently apart from one opponent with two slayer heroes in a big unit of slayers which beat my old list 20:0 but not sweeped and got a sweep back (20:0 with no opponent on the rable) I havent met a dwarves holds army that beat me (one opponent won 8:12 after round 5 but would been defeated). Must have been 7 or more different opponents so far.

      Looking at the other book is often more like the grass looks greener on the other side but is not.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Traumdieb ().

    • Sarevok wrote:

      The staff hates this army and wants it to be one of the worst, and this is pretty clear since years ago. Just deal with it.
      Totally agree. I really hate them and rumors have it that @Tyranno though trying to create the impression he’s constantly complaining in various private chats with RT members he speaks about how to nerf ID best.

      The tournament data showed how weak the ID army is but I heard they got doctored by no one other than whammewhamme himself in order to increase the icon of the inferno by 15 points and now it’s totally worthless.

      Oops I guess that just slipped out. sorry for demasking you @Tyranno
    • @noir is this some strange kind of humor? And kind of off topic.

      Apart from that the increase of the Icon was justified. Its still is a good choice even though its now thinkable to drop it. If you manage to destroy a single redirector completely with it. It has done what it should. If you manage to kill for instance an organ gun with it before it can hurt you.

      Also ID is utterly competitive in my view with much more nice choices than any other army I had or have now. Can think of three pretty different concepts that are highly competitive. Plus a mix of two of them.

      Sad that there were some bad choices like improving Backstabbers instead of Taurukh Subjugator which was not what the community wanted but that may be my glimpse of it.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)
    • Peacemaker wrote:

      Figures, nerf Inferal Dwarfs while the Dwarf Holds gets everything.
      Typical.

      :whistling:
      DH did bad at tourneys. They got buffs to major units. We got a lot buffs on pretty bad to no options. However its seems odd and maybe even unfair that other armies on the same Tier got buffs to major units but Our Taurukh family kept untouched.

      Hardest nerfs in my view were small price decreases at heirloom and death cheater (killing nice combos on overlord and mage). But for instance occultism got strong buffs.

      However this made me change my army and it now feels stronger than ever, after all I won my first tourney with them (24 players). The same concept should have worked last Version too.

      noir wrote:

      Traumdieb wrote:

      @noir is this some strange kind of humor? And kind of off topic.
      oh no not at all strange. It’s called irony :P
      Dont think this is helpfull at this thread. Tyranno for instance whinned about the same things discussed here before he got an ACS.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)
    • Traumdieb wrote:

      DH did bad at tourneys. They got buffs to major units. We got a lot buffs on pretty bad to no options. However its seems odd and maybe even unfair that other armies on the same Tier got buffs to major units but Our Taurukh family kept untouched.
      This is because Dwarf Holds players rely on their innate OP-ness and don't learn to how to play the game tactically :evil:

      On a more serious note - the Tauruh's look pretty decent to me on paper. They might be a subpar choice when fighting elves because of the initiative thing and strong attacks back. But against other armies it should give ID some decent hitting mobile units. The Key I think with Tauruks is not too just rush up, you can jockey around for good positioning and then get into comabt - and the army can do this sinceit has orc slaves, two wolf rider units, etc... Tons of screening stuff.

      Traumdieb wrote:

      Hardest nerfs in my view were small price decreases at heirloom and death cheater (killing nice combos on overlord and mage). But for instance occultism got strong buffs.

      However this made me change my army and it now feels stronger than ever, after all I won my first tourney with them (24 players). The same concept should have worked last Version too.
      This is exactly what happened to my buddy who plays ID and who I always play against. He always took a the super strong Lord in Immortal Anvil unit and I always beat him. Now he's taking mixed arms of everything and he's playing alot better. Forced him to learn :)

      ....maybe that's what the Dwarf Holds players need. lol
      Just look what it's done for the HBE players! LOL!
    • @Peacemaker

      DH arent op. Esspecially not vs. Infernal Dwarves if the ID player knows what he is doing. The ID has only a problem if the DH can play to his strenghts.

      For instance apart from a unit judges in full strengt there is nothing in this game that wants alone in a unit of kingsguard. So Immortalsdeathstar wont work here. There is no list that cant be counterfied.

      DH normally got one strong and very expensive unit. You chaff it and kill it with Magic, Flamers and shooters. Mean while you kill the rest of the army and you take the victory.

      For instance most things DH fields does not stand against four or better five Kadim Incarnates or against an Taurukh Annointed herd and you have to avoid those units who can with them. Thats why you are quicker than them.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Traumdieb ().

    • Traumdieb wrote:

      Sad that there were some bad choices like improving Backstabbers instead of Taurukh Subjugator which was not what the community wanted but that may be my glimpse of it.
      We already stated multiple times that the Subjugator could not be changed in the latest update.

      It wasn't in the initial changes, and we were given a small time frame and limited options for presenting further units/options that could have got a price decrease. The Subjugator saw over the threshold so we could not suggest it for a price decrease.
      I am unhappy it was not among the initial units, but it was out of our hands.

      You want to blame someone about it, blame the 6% of ID players that took the Subjugator to tournaments across the world since 2.04 dropped.
    • Wrong remembered by me. He just admited that Backstabbers was a choice the community did not ask. I am pretty sure there was some point mentioned in the 2.05 thread but dont wanna reread that.

      Apart from argumetation about statistical inaccuracy (deviation) which means Subjugator could be bought below 5%. Chaos dwarves were for the common player presented with small nerfs with impacts and almost no buffs with much Impact on usage that werent bound to happen anyway(Blunderbusses).

      However great weapons at disciples are in a good spot now.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Traumdieb ().

    • Traumdieb wrote:

      Wrong remembered by me. He just admited that Backstabbers was a choice the community did not ask. I am pretty sure there was some point mentioned in the 2.05 thread but dont wanna reread that.

      Apart from argumetation about statistical inaccuracy (deviation) which means Subjugator could be bought below 5%. Chaos dwarves were for the common player presented with small nerfs with impacts and almost no buffs with much Impact on usage that werent bound to happen anyway(Blunderbusses).

      However great weapons at disciples are in a good spot now.
      Wrong.

      In the" underpowered/overpowered units" thread 7 of 9 players reported Backstabbers as underpowered for a change. Backstabbers were on the list of most reported things within the book.

      But hey, you didnt even participated, so coming now complaining about what was changed and what not looks out of place, you had your chance to be heard and didnt use it.

      Subjugator wasnt below 5%. I was the one that reviewed the tournament lists looking for the viability of Subjugator in first place.
      It got a 6% usage, only two players above the limit, but still the threshold was a limit that couldnt be crossed.

      We only looked at Backstabbers for a discount after noticing that Rocket Battery and Subjugator were above the limit and not elegible for a discount (and other things like giant, lamassu or grenade launcher already had a discount assigned).
    • No because like many other players I did not even noticed this thread. After all it is not even pinned.

      The data of ID must be so low that there must have been a huge deviation between which results were reported and which not. Never said that the Backstabbers werent underpowered just that people wanted other things to change. Actually I did not notice that it does not give ambush anymore so the backstabber boss is not good for much either.

      So please tell me what would have been the other choice?

      Again and again the major critism is that other armies got major units buffed, which was not the choice of the ACS, and we got dead options that are still pretty death According to the lista posted.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Traumdieb ().

    • Traumdieb wrote:

      Again and again the major critism is that other armies got major units buffed, which was not the choice of the ACS, and we got dead options that are still pretty death According to the lista posted.
      We were asked for the most underused/underpowered options to be listed. What else would you expect from such a list other than the weakest stuff improving?

      I have no idea why other armies had their better units getting a buff. Perhaps their internal balance between weakest and strongest is better? Perhaps the non-ID-external experts RT talked to said that all their good units don't see play to buff their lists? We don't know.

      The nerf to Death Cheater does hurt us more than other armies, and I have pointed out before that the Overlord relies on very few builds. But that hit was indescriminate.