Manxol's "FAB"

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    • Manxol's "FAB"

      Initial Disclaimer:
      Display Spoiler

      I started to do this because I wanted to do some prophosals on a post. And then I thought "I can try to do a FAB", like I've seen other people does in other subforums. But, in the end, it is this, a proposal of ideas. Some of them I'm sure have been thought by our ACS and other teams have regected it. But, in no way, I have done this "book" to negligect the work of our ACS. I value them, and think they will do a better job than me. They have more experience and they are more people and don't do things alone. And working with other people you work better than alone.

      Doing it this way have helped me in a couple of ways. On one hand, writting a book (and as you can see, failing to doing it right) have helped me understand how amazing the work people do in this game is. I tried like 4 hours to have the icons right. And yet, I failed again, agan and again.

      On the second hand, writing the book this way have helped me to mature some thinkings. Some ideas I originally thought wehere regected while writting and putting it on the table. Some things have changed simply because the wording was easier other way.

      It was a fun entertainment. It also made me realize how bad I'm working with pdf and word.

      Of course, it is possible there be some weird things here. I'm pretty sure I have made some mistakes writting the book.


      I allready have apologied. So, simply, this is the book: dropbox.com/s/6mumuvx3f92t47k/Manxol%27s%20FAB%20ID.pdf?dl=0

      Of course, points are orientative. But they are what I think they should be. I might be wrong.

      So, proposed changes:
      - Chosen of Ashuruk: switched the fear inmunity effect, now fear makes us made Discipline test but doesn't give us -1 Dis. I believe than the bf part isn't the great special rule accros all armies, but also I think it is a nice rule and the points given to it are fair.
      - Onyx Core: now it can enchant also Infernal Weapon
      - Burning Steel: now it can enchant also paired weapons (Disciple of Lugar in mind)
      - Eternal Flame: new weapon enchantment, can enchant infernal weapon and flintlock axes. Gives flaming close and ranged attacks to bearer and his unit. 50 pts.
      - Bullhorn of Nebzikesh, Heat Haze: removed
      - Icon of Dessication: works like Icon of the Inferno but triggers the Alchemy attribute. An army can't have more than one icon. Couldn't think of a proper Icon for Occultism .(maybe reducing sacrifice need, but seems too strong to me). 50 pts.
      - Overlord: Gained Armour 1. Fan the Flame gives battle focus instead of hatred (basically, you have battle focus since turn 1 instead of turn 2 due to CoA).
      - Vizier: Gained Armour 1 and Discipline 10. 160 pts.
      - Prophet: Gained Armour 1. Engineer striped down from him. 210 base cost but he allready starts being Wizard Apprentice.
      - Hellsmith: replaces Engineer. 180 points, same stats but HP2. His Engineer range is 12" and can choose Bound Demon instead of a warmachine. If he does, Bound Demon loses Move or Fire instead of gaining Aim (+3). Can be Apprentice or Adept, but no Master, and can only choose Alchemy. Blunderbuss and Flintlock Axe have Aim (2+). Counts towards Hail of the Gods instead of barrage.
      - Taurukh Subjugator: Loses Devastating Charge (+1 Armour) and gains 1 Attack. Same Cost
      - Great Bull of Shamut: Gains Impact Hits (2). His cost + Overlord cost same as now.
      - Infernal Warriors: gain acces to spear, 2ppm
      - Citadel Guard: Gain acces to Great Weapon, 4ppm
      - Orc Slaves: shields and paired weapons at 1ppm
      - Immortals: Gain Armour 1, lose the -2 AP part of Blessing of Nezibkesh. Shields are free, but infernal Weapon costs 4 points. 300 base cost, 28 extra model.
      - Taurukh Annoited: Lose Devastating Charge (+1 Armour), Gain Armour 1. 355 base cost, 115 points extra model. Great Weapons 8 ppm.
      - Taurukh Pulverizer: a new unit so we can use these beautiful classic miniatures. Essentially a Chariot, with les charge impact (2d3 instead of D6+1) but with Grinding Attacks (2d3). 140 points.
      - Rocket Battery: His shots become d6+4.
      - Bound Daemon: can pivot and shot.
      - Kadim Titan: Gains Armour 3 instead of 2, now reduces by 2 the Aegis against fire, instead of gaining divining attacks vs Aegis (2+, againts Flamming Attacks).
      - Infernal Engine: Now Steam Hammers also give Imact Hits (d6+1, maximized).
      - Armoured Giant: loses the pick, instead can replace heavy armour with Infernal Armour and Shield for 30 points.

      The work behind this "FAB" isn't as much as it could be. I left somethings untouched like backstabbers because I couldn't think of proper way to redone them. I like CoA, but people seems to dislike it, but anyway I haven't lost time thinking about it.

      This book is a divertimento and a brainstorming if you wish. Points are there because I wanted, but I'm pretty sure they will be greater if the proper team do them. And I'm sure some changes wouldn't have acceptance amongs balance team. But as said, they are my proposals.

      What do you think of it?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Manxol ().

    • Most of the ideas are a bit like wish you something. Also some of the upgrades would make them unplayable or at least much worse. In total I would not like to play your concept and would drop my beloved Infernal Dwarves if the Asaw would be this.

      The pulverizer is basically steam hammers engine with normal attack movement.

      Subjugator: does not solve its problem.
      Taurukh Annointed would become unplayable because to expensive. With T5 they dont need 2+. They need an grind attack instead of stomp.

      Coreupgrades are unnecessary.

      For what do you want all this more amour? This is the least of our problem. I think 2+ on foot soldiers as well as 2+ with T5 is over the maximum units can have.

      The ideas I like is Hellsmith.
      Engineer but normal rule, BSB Option, only Apprentice (access to magical Items). Adept is to good. Bullhorn included is to powerfull.

      Kadim Titan should ignore fire ward save.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Traumdieb ().

    • Well, of course I wish something. As I said, it is a proposal of changes and brainstorming, but presentated in a fancy way. I guess than after demons book, thoughts will start to be made in our FAB, and since in a forum we have voice and this voice can be heared, I wanted to put my grain of thought to be heared.

      And of course, my vision doesn't have to match yours.

      - The pulveriser is a less eficient chariot but with grinding attacks. Indeed, it is a proposal to include a fun and bizarre legacy miniature. The Steam Hammers GW Infernal engine are based on this miniature, so it makes sense than it has common ground.

      - Annoited losed devastating charge and gained 1 armour. Subjugator has been streamlined and instead of price drop I thought +1 attack makes sense. With Arm1 +Infernal Armour, paired weapons and great weapon annoited become more appealing IMHO. Grinding attack would put them on level of chosen knights offensive, and I don't think this is desirable.

      - I disagree about core. 90% of lists consist of 1-3 flintlock units, 1-2 slave/hobgoblin units and 0-1 infernal warrior big unit. Spear + blunderbuss could be a good unit. 15-25 man citadel guard with great could help us move out of the gunline core. Id we suffer something is the lack if core options, or viable options in core. Hobbos are almost allways with bow, some with spear and shield in addition. CG allways with flintlock, since shield CG are just worse immortals with a great price tag (18 cg are 366 points, 15 immortals with IW and shield are 350. 25 CG are 520, 20 immortals 510), IW in horde (maybe now with bb), slaves naked.

      - I want extra armour because it is one of our strenghts, so if our elitest unit, which allready has some isues, has acces to it I think it fits our theme. Also, with Armour1, great weapon immirtals makes more sense. We struggle pretty hard to have acces to +1 AS characters, and it is a shame.

      - Since our shooting is too short, Hellsmith will have to move out of 6" from WM. He also losed a HP and limiting his lore to alchemy hurts (ideal build would be with piro). I like the bsb part.

      - Going completly throught aegis vs fire would be too much. Reducing it by 2 makes sense to me.
    • Just because most people play 3 Darts and a slave unit does not make it the best core.

      Infernal Warriors are pretty cheap. But we dont get spears because of hobgobos as well as orcs wont get bows.
      Citadel Guards is elite core and in a nice spot.
      Slave orcs are maybe even to cheap in base version and equipment is to expensive.
      Hobgoblins are just fine.

      But basically all are ok in my view one of the best core in the game (in combo with characters) . I can think of several above average cores to play with three different type of units or even big block infernal warriors and a blunderbuss unit.

      You mean the Juggernaut as pulveriser? Classic model for infernal engine. If this is an option in combo with engine it would be broken.

      Dude we dont even have a decent build for 2+/whatever. But the Subjugator is easy to get on 1+. Our units have high amour if you want to get tanky play slow dwarves who btw dont have more amour than we have.

      The clue about hellsmith is option to minor magic and being BSB. Otherwise he is just an engineer with not enough magic to use alone.

      Btw the Icon of Inferno as attribute of alchemie would kill alchemie as option. If this comes everyone plays Occultism with this option plus firery and guess what it does not bring you much. Why? Because the Icon helps vs. agile opponents and most warmachines which is a bigger problem than to reroll 1s and 2s at wounding.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)
    • I like your ideas for the fear part of CoA, the Icon of Dessication (liberates us from using Alchemy when playing Kadims/Lugars), Bound daemon and the fan the flames. The rest is either not to my taste or simply to good to be true.


      Traumdieb wrote:

      Btw the Icon of Inferno as attribute of alchemie would kill alchemie as option.
      Alchemy is still the best path against high armor, which my ID armies often struggle against. But I hate to have it in my allcomer list only for the attribut (and then playing against BH and casting anything only to get the attribut...). Of course I could use Essence of a free mind, but then I can't use the Heirloom or Besheluk's (which is priced-in for Kadims as we all know ;) ).

      ID needs another option apart from Haze of Magnesia and the lackluster Ring of Desiccation to make things flamable. Although getting the Alchemy attribut with every cast is a little to much candy thrown around...

      Edit: How about beeing allowed to shoot into melee with the secondary fire mode of the Flamethrower-Weaponteams (and adding this mode to the Infernal Artillery-Flamethrower)?
    • Why need more to make flammeable? Btw you also got the small flamer to do that too.

      The Ring is btw not even often in use

      I won tourneys with haze of magenta only. Also occultism and flame would be to much together.

      Who wants to play dwarves with no option to hate? Rather like grudges too.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Traumdieb ().

    • Thd pulverizer is inspured by this. Maybe it should drop Impact hits.


      I see that the armour part gets a general dislike.

      Regarding both icons, spending a veil token everytime you cast the atribute could be nice.

      You might get enought with haze of magnesia, @Traumdieb, but also you droped almost all fire from your list. But if you wnt to use kadims/lugars, you are requiered to use alchemy.

      Btw, fire/flammable is way more ID than hatred. Hatred is more a DH thing, since they are the kind of people which remember than once two years ago didn't want to split the dessert. They remmember grudges from enemies. ID despise enemies as inferior beings. And since CoA guves bf on round 2, I think it makes since that Fan the flames gives the same rule but sooner.

      In regards of hellsmith, what would you think of guving him specific spells or bound spells?

      I like the bsb part, but I think 4 different bsb might be to much.

      In the end, if I was in charge ot this book, the things I would defend to get most are those:
      - Icon of Dessication. New ways to get flammable are needed. It might have haze of magnesia as bound spell instead of this proposal.
      - Dis 10 vizier. Or something. There isn't reason to pick him besides of bsb or bullzir.
      - Hellsmith. Not necessary this proposal, but something. Interaction with bound demons could be nice.
      - Great weapon for CG. I think they need it, and the army strugles pretty hard to get S6 attacks.
      - Free shield and IW at 4 points for immortals. Din't know it is enought to push great weapon immortals, but I would like to do something with this fellas.
      - D6+N shoots on rocket battery.
      - Some love for hammers train. The only reason to include him over sharpenwl guns is if you have spend all barrage allowance.
      - Shield giant. It is armoured giant, show it.

      Also, I wold like to point some ideas I droped:
      - Weapon enchantmen which gives +1 Armour.
      - Avatar of Shammut. An excuse to use the balrog miniature. A demon of fire fits us. Couldn't think of a way to diferenciate enought from other books demons.
      - Little tauruk hero.
      - Entries for hail of the gods. Little tauruk with flintlock axes, a dedicated mid range shooting unit...
      - Bound demons being an independent entry, with less destructive weapons but without move or fire.
    • I personally would love a hellsmith with bound spell of besheluk mechanism and BSB option. But Apprentice would be cooler in my view (also you can give him the crown of wizard king). Could be an option for the vizier also. <-- I like him but only as hero maybe with malus to CC.

      The little taurukh hero was discussed and may come. Would be good and I think he is on the list but I am not part of the process. However I discussed this issue with @Gomio a year ago or so.

      To hatred:
      I like my infernal dwarves as nasty little angry guys. We are dwarves of fire and ashes, so we are dwarves. Dwarves = angry. It would be a shame to reduce us to fire.

      I think battle focus is worse than hatred and bf on second round. Also note that you wanted to drop this part from the chosen list.

      To alchemie:
      Btw it is not uncommon to play two mages as chaos dwarf. Why not use the adept as alchemist if you want to flame something. But honestly if I want to make something burn as chaos dwarf I make it burn. However Fire is so easy counterfied and again we are more than fire. Fire is an important part but after all a part.

      To bound deamon:
      I loved my bound demon but have not played him for a while.

      Main reason: Its an expensive upgrade for the flamer which counteracts with his main task = Flaming stuff. The rocket battery is simply bad no matter with what. Also the titan mortar is a huge gamble. But a fighting and moving warmachine (not the flamer) would be kind of nice.
      Please complain a little more that your army and only your army is to weak. Its not your play for sure ;)

      The Bad Beards (ID)
      Das Tribe (OnGs)
      Zee Brood (SA)
    • I ges if hellsmith gets besheluk as bound spell he would be too much guided towards one kind of list. I was thinking in haze of magnesia and the +1 armpr from alchemy spell.

      I'n not saying battle focus > hatred. What I say is that it is more consistent with current CoA.

      In regards of alchemy, I do this. And it is a shame than I have to spend 320 extra points to get utility from our fire guys.

      Bound Demon could use some weapons with power lvl between gunnery team and artillery. Maybe volleygun 2d6*2 with S5 AP3 or sort of.

      I thoufht the clasic mini was a steam eoller, but couldn't find it