The concept of "Pubstomping" in T9A

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  • I think it's probably as much a problem as it was during the whfb times. If you go to a tournament you can expect that some players are there to win, and some to just play. And if you're playing in a club then most of the times you plan before hand what kind of game you'll be playing.

    And even if some players experience this alot, i'd say it's a local community problem, and not a 9th age problem. Talk to your opponents and clubmates about what kind of games you like to play.
  • Damo wrote:

    Back in 8th, the daemon prince was a problem between me and a friend. I felt it was broken (unbreakable, 1+, 4+, t6), he like his model and wanted to use it.

    I cant think of a single list that is equivalent- that if i saw in a tournament pack i would feel it was power gaming.

    If it was against a new player that’s different of course.
    If he was using it with t6 4++ instead of the t5 5++ it should have then im not surprised you had issues ;)
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  • Damo wrote:

    Pellegrim wrote:

    Of course this happens! I know people that shun tournaments if the WaaC boys enlist. Happens regularly. As long as there enough events to cater both there are no problems. It also helps if the TO clearly states the intentions of the tournament, like "play to have fun", or "play hard but play like a gentlemen". I usually mirror my playstyle to my opponent. That gives me the most fun. If a play a newbie, I go for the epic adventure; if I play a WaaC, I try to give him a run for his money.
    is this more their list or their play style?
    90% the playstyle cause 9th balanced it all out. Some units that have a bad name from WFB still give people the creeps, but really its no longer a real issue. Never underestimate feelings tho!
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  • I think the biggest factor in fun is the attitude of either player, either having a sore loser or sore winner. I’ve gotten 0-20 but because my opponent is a friend and good hearted it didn’t affect me, frustration came from either mistakes I made, mainly things I forget to take into account, or dice rolls. And in fact the opponent relieves the frustration by having a positive (not arrogant) attitude throughout the game and distracting from the bad rolls/mistakes, which I’m sure is a skill in itself.

    That said, if any list is deemed “bad” or, something along the lines of “he’s a d#%^ for bringing that list” then that is T9A’s fault, not the player. If the game allows it, then you can’t complain. I’m all about the honor system but let’s be realistic, that can’t be fixed or enforced, the rules can. The majority has a problem with spamming this unit? Put a limit on it then. Armies aren’t intended to look that way? Put some rules it to change that.

    Basically: you can’t blame players for bringing what the rules allow

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Marcos24 ().

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    Marcos24 wrote:

    That said, if any list is deemed “bad” or, something along the lines of “he’s a d#%^ for bringing that list” then that is T9A’s fault, not the player. If the game allows it, then you can’t complain.
    Only 2 time in T9A I found there to be an OP list was way back with the OP dwarf gunline in the hands of a good player(...there was an issue with tons of bad dwarf players not knowing how OP their book really was which let this OPness go on for a long time). But it's not very bad anymore and other armies have tools to counter that playstyle.

    The last time was against a Daemon avoidance Change list. Everything was mobile and shooting 30" was just so stupid with a 2 big untis of move 9/18 with strong sweep attacks + fly. Utterly ridiculous. I still had a fun game though as I chose to go after his scoring units to make it a 17-3 even though I was tabled on turn 5. And the player wasn't was a decent guy to play against.
    ...I complained on forums right away and was informed that playstyle was to be axed very shortly.

    And even with this guy's list, he wasn't at the top because there was a Sylvan Elf counter to his cheese.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Peacemaker ().

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    aus_lo wrote:

    I dislike skilled players who bring their "ETC-list" to casual game days and beginner friendly tournaments. We casual players come to these events to enjoy the game with our wacky lists, not be cannon fodder on someone’s road to Olympic gold. Try instead to help less experienced players to understand the game better.

    Very few beginners will feel inspired after getting thrashed for 10 hours straight.

    If the event is intended to be all about the competition I expect players to bring their A-game.
    "the list" concept doesnt exist in 9th age, any good player will rolfstomp a bad player regardless the list any of them is using unless of course our lord and saviour the dice decide otherwise.
    Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds- elf hero on foot 2016
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    As one who has completely stopped playing T9A, I can tell my reason is deeply connected with this topic.

    1) I agree the list problem does not really exist in T9A anymore. It is very balanced for a game of such complexity.

    2) T9A is a game of skill, and it's very hard to master. You start with 100 pages of basic rules plus all the army books. Just to play your own army, you have to master some 120 pages. To understand an opponent army, add 20 pages. To be ready in an all-comers set-up, add some 250 pages to your own army book. So it's blatantly clear that people who have read it all and practice a lot will be miles better than people who don't. Actually, I'd say people who really master the game play and think in a totally different universe compared to the rest.

    3) T9A around here is predominantly a competitive game played by a small group of dedicated and very skilled players - basically the local ETC team. They know how to build lists (yes, it still matters, of course). They know how to play the millimetre-game with totally infallible positioning, of course with laser markers and angle justifiers. They know the buff-circus. They know the odds. And they play for winning. They're also the guys who have a ranking list, and who of course top that list. Some of them are actually working for the T9A project, so are among the game developers (if not in the rules team).

    It goes without saying that I'm not within that competitive group. I don't have the time to invest to reach that level. No game is that interesting or important for me, really.

    4) But because the circles are so small, and the investment in the game so vast compred to any other new fantasy battles game (but some rpg's maybe), there really is no other T9A scene. Instead, the people who don't want to play competitive T9A play OTHER fantasy battles games less competitively. Usually, they are pre-8th editions of Warhammer. Also, there have been many new fantasy battles games published in the recent years.

    It's actually a very cool solution, because now everybody knows the gaming styles: play T9A, play very competitively. Play Oldhammer or any other fantasy game, play less competitively.

    I've felt and seen how the 'professional' competitive players beat beginner players mercilessly and repeatedly. It's their right to do, especially in a tournament. They do not hide their strategies, or the synenergies they go after in their lists, or the degree of pre-measurement and thinking forward that this game needs. They would like others to learn the game and join the joust for winning. The competitive players are all very nice guys, and I totally want them to have good time with their style of hobby. And I understand how, after reaching that level, it's very hard to step down to a more casual level and still enjoy the game. Beause you still see and understand the table as a compeitive millimetre-field. You just can't switch your brains off.

    My answer is never go play with them, never play T9A at all, just admire the painting of their armies during the set-up and cheer along in the web.
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    it is "sad" that while having such "wealthy" brain food (aka "pro-players") in your zone, u dont see the luck u got and use it to improve, just by watching them playing or asking for suggestions and help, rather doing like the "wolf and the grape". but it s up to you.

    i would like to understand what s behind the "uncompetitive scene" "you" are talking about. like it s a saint grail of fun and entertainment.
    i dont get it.

    but letting aside this. is ther any game you play? videogames?as long as they are multiplayer and in the detail "competitive pvp" there will be always the fact that more skilled wins.
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    @Anselmus not sure how big is your local scene but I have met tons of casual players at tournaments. Sure I run into one or two pro players sometimes but I also run into lots super casual players who come to the events to meet people and roll dice with them.

    Also, at least in my experience, if you get stomped by someone good they are usually eager to point out some mistakes you made which help you play better.
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  • New

    My friend has such experience - at small points tournament (2500) at 1.3 rules. Casual tournament for beginners and they met WaaC player (unkillable Lion Chariot Prince, Frost Phoenix which should be dead at end of game - "but I just moved dice, it was at 2 wounds, not 1", propably max Elder Service/Peacekeepers). They not come to "casual" tournament anymore - learned one thing from that game - to play just single friendly games with known players.

    I think that there are solutions - either in rules or from TO, but none of them is perfect (divide BRB - casual + tournament supplement, additional restrictions for casual games, banning WaaC players from casual tournaments).
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    Think there is a general thing with courtesy of play, etiquette if you will. 9th Age has this awesome document on gaming etiquette, and I copy paste it into all my rulepacks. Take away dice dice that failed the roll, stuff like that. Always ask your opponent if you can try a weird manouver, mark a unit before you pick it up, move units next to a measurement tape while making sure your opponent can confirm you move the right distance. Some people take shortcuts on these things (because they simply forget, or do not care about them, or feel they are too good and people should blindly trust them). That can add to a poor gaming experience for their opponent, to a level of frustration even.
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  • New

    Just_Flo wrote:

    And what has cheating to do with hardcore lists?
    That's propably my fault - I see that I should quote OP as I wasn't referring to few above posts :P

    It was more about "pubstomping in t9a" than cheating.
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    Haunted Forest wrote:

    When I read today posts on dakka dakka I could literally puke. Everybody and his dog talks about "soup" which means to get the most op units from the factions that share these cute keywords in order to eradicate your opponent in the shortest amount of time.
    I have a similar impression/reaction from listening to local 40k players who I also played GW games with years ago when I started the hobby. Apparently it is a virtue to find the latest imba with every new release and pro players who are talented in this regard and always switch armies to abuse OP stuff before others find it are celebrated like rockstars.
    "Yeah, you surely have to be a good player to find out what stuff is overpowered and use it. But wouldn't it be a better measure of skill if said players best everyone else when both armies are about equally strong and balanced?"
    "That kind of balance not possible."
    Well then.
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  • New

    Well my experience is different. Of course you have to have put some thoughts into your list and how you want them to interact, but armies build around weaker units but being part of a good concept and working together can bring better results than just taking the best units of the book but no synergies and not letting them work together.

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