Marking placement of units during movement

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  • Marking placement of units during movement

    New

    I'm curious as to the community's thoughts here. In our local gaming area, we have two trains of thought in regards to moving units.

    # 1 - you mark the unit's original location (typically with the little plastic angles at a corner or two) and then move. For crucial movements, there often will be some "re-dos" as you work out wheels and unit spacing and such. On those circumstances, you go back to the marking and start over. For less crucial movements, you may not bother marking and will just move.

    # 2 - no marking is permitted. Instead, you work out the movement path as best you can before moving and then off you go. Once your unit is moving, it's moving. Usually it's not an issue to back off a inch or two on a final wheel once you check angles but anything more than this is not really possible (as the original location is no longer known).

    Personally, I follow # 1 but but I certainly can recognize advantages to both. For # 1, it provides the best control of your final placement and often it's easier to work out measurements once your unit (and its awkward weapon bits) are out of the way. Additionally, should you make a mistake (such as keeping unit spacing), it's relatively simple to back-track and correct it. It's also very easy to verify that no model has moved more than max distance (particularly for light troops). However, it certainly begs the question - how can you sure the unit's original location hasn't been bumped or shifted?

    For # 2, it does bring more of a challenge to the movement game, and sometimes you may find yourself unexpectedly short of movement for a wheel and left in an awkward spot. This could be good or bad for a tournament setting, depending on your opinion. However, this would also need to be tempered with restraint, if you are in that spot you certainly can't be the guy who keeps nudging the unit to a better spot (or possibly more legal spot, if unit spacing was exceeded) as there's no longer any way to verify you haven't exceeded your total movement. For this reason, I prefer # 1 but I recognize it does resolve issues of plastic angles being bumped/moved.

    For clarity, in both circumstances movement of units is sequential. After you move one unit and progress on to the next, you can't go back to the first.

    Let me know what method (or even something else), you may do in your community. We're all the same with shaky hands and uneven terrain.
  • New

    Doug_L wrote:

    I'm curious as to the community's thoughts here. In our local gaming area, we have two trains of thought in regards to moving units.

    # 1 - you mark the unit's original location (typically with the little plastic angles at a corner or two) and then move. For crucial movements, there often will be some "re-dos" as you work out wheels and unit spacing and such. On those circumstances, you go back to the marking and start over. For less crucial movements, you may not bother marking and will just move.

    # 2 - no marking is permitted. Instead, you work out the movement path as best you can before moving and then off you go. Once your unit is moving, it's moving. Usually it's not an issue to back off a inch or two on a final wheel once you check angles but anything more than this is not really possible (as the original location is no longer known).

    Personally, I follow # 1 but but I certainly can recognize advantages to both. For # 1, it provides the best control of your final placement and often it's easier to work out measurements once your unit (and its awkward weapon bits) are out of the way. Additionally, should you make a mistake (such as keeping unit spacing), it's relatively simple to back-track and correct it. It's also very easy to verify that no model has moved more than max distance (particularly for light troops). However, it certainly begs the question - how can you sure the unit's original location hasn't been bumped or shifted?

    For # 2, it does bring more of a challenge to the movement game, and sometimes you may find yourself unexpectedly short of movement for a wheel and left in an awkward spot. This could be good or bad for a tournament setting, depending on your opinion. However, this would also need to be tempered with restraint, if you are in that spot you certainly can't be the guy who keeps nudging the unit to a better spot (or possibly more legal spot, if unit spacing was exceeded) as there's no longer any way to verify you haven't exceeded your total movement. For this reason, I prefer # 1 but I recognize it does resolve issues of plastic angles being bumped/moved.

    For clarity, in both circumstances movement of units is sequential. After you move one unit and progress on to the next, you can't go back to the first.

    Let me know what method (or even something else), you may do in your community. We're all the same with shaky hands and uneven terrain.
    Part of the problem is that virtually all wheels result in illegal movement if you move the full distance. Unless we're going to be super-pedantic, #1 seems nice but unnecessary. (Virtually all players cheat on movement a little bit, because checking for the < 1/8" too far back model placement on the wheel is just super pedantic and slows down play to no real gain). This is especially problematic now that we check displacement from old center to new center - there's going to be measurement error in that regardless, because you can't mark the center of the model accurately before movement (or at least its annoying enough to not bother with). Part of playing a game on a physical table with physical measurements and models has to be accepting some small bit of measurement imprecision.

    You should generally know, even without marking, how far forward you moved before the wheel and so forth. Going back to before a terminal wheel and backing up an inch is easy to do, even if you don't know precisely where you started.

    So unless your opponent is flagrantly and intentionally cheating on movement, #2 just seems easier to actually play. Now, if you expect movement to be super complicated and want to mark the start position, please do - it just shouldn't be an expectation for every simple move.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • New

    i dont know how it works at tourneys
    But everyone i know uses the plastic "L" to mark starting point.

    I see no reason to not do it.
    Often it d just to move your unit and looking a different perspective the field.

    Its more than "cant count the part of 1".
    It s more like some player cheats soon or later with no marks because they see the field changing change opponent s possibilities. And.do liittle reforms on the way.sometimes when out of " to make them
  • New

    Ask yourself the question, which way speeds up play and makes the game less argumentative?

    I go for the first in all my games, comp or non comp and actively work with my opponent to ensure that what they are trying to achieve is possible unless their movement has made the maneuver literally impossible due to terrain restrictions.

    The idea is the crux of the game for me, i'm not one to get finicky over 1/8" just because it would be advantageous to say it. Does the way you play make it fun for both parties? Rule lawyering hardly ever does, so avoid that.

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  • New

    I don’t see how 2 could be functional in an important move. Could you talk me through it again?

    In an important move- eg light troops around a unit or terrain then out of enemy arc; he moves- it seems implausible, what do you do? Accept it or dispute it? You can’t verify it.

    This is a game won in the movement phase. It’s important to be pretty confident that happen fairly
  • New

    Damo wrote:

    I don’t see how 2 could be functional in an important move. Could you talk me through it again?

    In an important move- eg light troops around a unit or terrain then out of enemy arc; he moves- it seems implausible, what do you do? Accept it or dispute it? You can’t verify it.

    This is a game won in the movement phase. It’s important to be pretty confident that happen fairly
    That's an interesting comment - I like this interpretation in that it may be more to the benefit of the other player to mark a base before movement.
  • New

    Doug_L wrote:

    Damo wrote:

    I don’t see how 2 could be functional in an important move. Could you talk me through it again?

    In an important move- eg light troops around a unit or terrain then out of enemy arc; he moves- it seems implausible, what do you do? Accept it or dispute it? You can’t verify it.

    This is a game won in the movement phase. It’s important to be pretty confident that happen fairly
    That's an interesting comment - I like this interpretation in that it may be more to the benefit of the other player to mark a base before movement.
    Its for the benefit of both- their mutual enjoyment. A dispute over movement, no matter how polite, leaves a little sour taste.
  • New

    Number one is complete garbage, and i mean that with all politeness....

    Why ? this is a game of skill more then it is of luck, a player should be skilled enough to move their units and visualize where they want to move before moving -- end of story.

    moved your guys forward and don't like the position ? too bad learn from the mistake and move on

    have a move your not sure about? talk to your opponent don't even touch the unit until you are ready to move it.

    movement is a massive part of this game and marking your units location and then moving it to a spot and then moving it back in my mind is bad form. in the rules it only allows you to remove you unit from the battle field and place it back when you reform or pivot around the center, witch are special forms of movement, so why should you be allowed to do this to help visualize what you want to do ?

    Another very important rule i think gets over looked is right in the movement phase sequence. see page 50 12.A steps 3 and 4. very annoying to see a player move a unit an inch to get a different unit past and then move the first unit backwards .... ( or at all)
  • New

    Kuyp wrote:

    Number one is complete garbage, and i mean that with all politeness....

    Why ? this is a game of skill more then it is of luck, a player should be skilled enough to move their units and visualize where they want to move before moving -- end of story.

    moved your guys forward and don't like the position ? too bad learn from the mistake and move on

    have a move your not sure about? talk to your opponent don't even touch the unit until you are ready to move it.

    movement is a massive part of this game and marking your units location and then moving it to a spot and then moving it back in my mind is bad form. in the rules it only allows you to remove you unit from the battle field and place it back when you reform or pivot around the center, witch are special forms of movement, so why should you be allowed to do this to help visualize what you want to do ?

    Another very important rule i think gets over looked is right in the movement phase sequence. see page 50 12.A steps 3 and 4. very annoying to see a player move a unit an inch to get a different unit past and then move the first unit backwards .... ( or at all)
    Unfortunately, the rules require a lot of double-checking on movement, and thus repositioning after having 'moved'. Because the distance we move is measured from the front, and then we check displacement.

    Basically, this problem is why we can't just move once and be done.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • New

    Kuyp wrote:

    Number one is complete garbage, and i mean that with all politeness....

    Why ? this is a game of skill more then it is of luck, a player should be skilled enough to move their units and visualize where they want to move before moving -- end of story.

    moved your guys forward and don't like the position ? too bad learn from the mistake and move on

    have a move your not sure about? talk to your opponent don't even touch the unit until you are ready to move it.

    movement is a massive part of this game and marking your units location and then moving it to a spot and then moving it back in my mind is bad form. in the rules it only allows you to remove you unit from the battle field and place it back when you reform or pivot around the center, witch are special forms of movement, so why should you be allowed to do this to help visualize what you want to do ?

    Another very important rule i think gets over looked is right in the movement phase sequence. see page 50 12.A steps 3 and 4. very annoying to see a player move a unit an inch to get a different unit past and then move the first unit backwards .... ( or at all)
    Movement is a massive part of the game, so DON'T mark units and carefully check what you're moving? For both legality and intentionality? Seems backwards. Blu tac and a marker work well and reduce arguments in my opinion.
  • New

    I suppose there are different preferences in terms of competitive play or not. Not everyone plays this game the same and theres's no harm in that. Hence why I was curious what other communities may have adopted.

    I was at the ETC last year (but only the bottom tables ;) ) and noticed that marking was prevalent. I would like to return in a future year, should marking be considered good custom, similar to other game aides like spell augment tokens and unit spacing measurement templates?
  • New

    competitively doenst mean exclusively tournaments.
    It means focusing on the game. To win. To be challenging.
    If i wanted to throw just dices with no effort or no focus, i could be home instead.


    But obv. Every time someone speak, should always put the sentence "accordingly to what and.your opponent pretend from the match"

    So ,to me, the.entire discussion is weak.
  • New

    Kuyp wrote:

    Number one is complete garbage, and i mean that with all politeness....
    First of all you are not polite, and then on top of that wrong. Playing with makers is way cleaner precise and less prone to both errors and cheating.
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  • New

    Kuyp wrote:

    Number one is complete garbage, and i mean that with all politeness....

    Why ? this is a game of skill more then it is of luck, a player should be skilled enough to move their units and visualize where they want to move before moving -- end of story.

    moved your guys forward and don't like the position ? too bad learn from the mistake and move on

    have a move your not sure about? talk to your opponent don't even touch the unit until you are ready to move it.

    movement is a massive part of this game and marking your units location and then moving it to a spot and then moving it back in my mind is bad form. in the rules it only allows you to remove you unit from the battle field and place it back when you reform or pivot around the center, witch are special forms of movement, so why should you be allowed to do this to help visualize what you want to do ?

    Another very important rule i think gets over looked is right in the movement phase sequence. see page 50 12.A steps 3 and 4. very annoying to see a player move a unit an inch to get a different unit past and then move the first unit backwards .... ( or at all)
    Playing without markers is impossible for any players at top tables.

    Many players don't really care about +/- 0.5" and that's perfectly fine.

    But claming you should be good enough to visualize the move before doing it and then accepting the results..? That seems really wierd.

    Are you telling me you can judge exactly were a unit will end up with it's allowed movement? What if you want to divert something and aren't sure you can? I would mark my unit and see if they have enough move, even before declaring charges with others units. Because if they can divert, I might want to charge, but if they can't divert the charge might be a suicide.

    A top player would never do that move because he "thinks" the diverter have enough movement, unless it's obvious, or it's a gamble that the opponent will miss the divert possibility.
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  • New

    Lagerlof wrote:

    Playing without markers is impossible for any players at top tables.
    Why is this impossible ?


    Are you telling me you can judge exactly were a unit will end up with it's allowed movement?
    lol yes that is what im saying, does no one remember a certain edition of a certain game that started this whole thing when you could not per-measure and guess ranges were a thing ?



    What if you want to divert something and aren't sure you can?
    easy don't move your unit, measure the gaps or distances and so on before doing so. you get your answer and the unit stays in place


    A top player would never do that move because he "thinks" the diverter have enough movement, unless it's obvious, or it's a gamble that the opponent will miss the divert possibility.
    why is it hard to fathom top players who don't need to move their unit off the table to use a tape measure ?


    dais wrote:

    Movement is a massive part of the game, so DON'T mark units and carefully check what you're moving? For both legality and intentionality? Seems backwards. Blu tac and a marker work well and reduce arguments in my opinion.you should not need to mark the units position, why ? because all of the different types of movement are detailed in the book. advancing, marching, pivoting, reforming, wheeling so on. so lets say you advance straight forward 8 inches then find out you actually wanted to advance move 6 and wheel 2. its to late! you sir are out of movement. A good player would be thinking ahead to what they want to do before doing it. as with anything practice makes perfect and you will get to a point where you wont make these mistakes and no longer need to see the need for markers and blu tac

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Unfortunately, the rules require a lot of double-checking on movement, and thus repositioning after having 'moved'. Because the distance we move is measured from the front, and then we check displacement.if you are referring to a wheel then yes i agree mark the location it IS the best way. other then that i feel again like MY main point has been missed here. if you mark the unit and then move that's fine, but if after you have moved the unit you don't like its spot and have moved the full maximum the unit is allowed to move , you don't magically get to move the unit back to its starting location, WHY NOT you ask ? because that is not one of the movements allowed as per the rules. and again a player should be able to visualize what they want to achieve before doing so.

    Adam wrote:

    First of all you are not polite, and then on top of that wrong. Playing with makers is way cleaner precise and less prone to both errors and cheating.
    i thin you misunderstand sir.... when i say with all politeness i mean im not calling anyone names or belittling them simplly giving my perspective of the question at hand and backing up my claim with evidence as to why, where you on the other hand simply say your is the best and that's it. way to add to the DISCUSSION :thumbsup:




    Shukran wrote:


    Putting a mark means that u are evaluating the move. When u like it u remove the mark and the move is done, since u lost track of initial positioning.
    so the only way to evaluate a move is to move the unit to see what it would look like when done? then why not bring little paper cut outs of your units and place them on the table where you want the unit to move then move the unit ?


    Are u really telling me u play competitively qithout mark?
    yes and i don't see why playing the game as its written is not competitive, if you have to change the rules to avoid people cheating then this is a different problem, and it lies in the player who feels the need to cheat


    So in summary, i personally am still not convinced that number # is any good because you are not allowed to move a unit to a location and then move it right back costing no movement or following the actual rules of the game. If you read that lovely book that so many people spent time writing, you will see the ONLY times you are allowed to remove the unit from the battlefield (movement phase related) and place it back on the center is during a reform or a pivot.

    also don't get to upset when a question is asked and someone disagrees with what you believe, if that is your feeling then why bother asking questions ?

    @ Doug_L I thank you for posting the question, i know for most going home after the tournament there were grumblings and upset folks but there ALWAYS are so there is not much that can be done lol
  • New

    Kuyp wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Unfortunately, the rules require a lot of double-checking on movement, and thus repositioning after having 'moved'. Because the distance we move is measured from the front, and then we check displacement.if you are referring to a wheel then yes i agree mark the location it IS the best way. other then that i feel again like MY main point has been missed here. if you mark the unit and then move that's fine, but if after you have moved the unit you don't like its spot and have moved the full maximum the unit is allowed to move , you don't magically get to move the unit back to its starting location, WHY NOT you ask ? because that is not one of the movements allowed as per the rules. and again a player should be able to visualize what they want to achieve before doing so.

    Part of my point is that no one can accurately predict where the limit of a legal move is once there's a wheel. No one. You're literally asking the impossible.

    It'd be awesome if we had some way to project all possible legal moves for a unit. We don't. It's calculation intensive. You need a spreadsheet and a degree of geometry familiarity and competence that 99% of the population simply doesn't have, and doing just every unit in your army for one turn would literally take hours.
    Just because I'm on the Legal Team doesn't mean I know anything about rules or background in development, and if/when I do, I won't be posting about it. All opinions and speculation are my own - treat them as such.

    Legal

    Playtester

    Chariot Command HQ

  • New

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Kuyp wrote:

    Squirrelloid wrote:

    Unfortunately, the rules require a lot of double-checking on movement, and thus repositioning after having 'moved'. Because the distance we move is measured from the front, and then we check displacement.if you are referring to a wheel then yes i agree mark the location it IS the best way. other then that i feel again like MY main point has been missed here. if you mark the unit and then move that's fine, but if after you have moved the unit you don't like its spot and have moved the full maximum the unit is allowed to move , you don't magically get to move the unit back to its starting location, WHY NOT you ask ? because that is not one of the movements allowed as per the rules. and again a player should be able to visualize what they want to achieve before doing so.

    Part of my point is that no one can accurately predict where the limit of a legal move is once there's a wheel. No one. You're literally asking the impossible.
    It'd be awesome if we had some way to project all possible legal moves for a unit. We don't. It's calculation intensive. You need a spreadsheet and a degree of geometry familiarity and competence that 99% of the population simply doesn't have, and doing just every unit in your army for one turn would literally take hours.
    All right, ill give. no one can accurately predict the limit of a legal move once there is a wheel. that kind of pin point precision is not what the problem here is though. the problem that has come up is a player marking the place of a unit, then removing the unit from the field moving the unit to a new position, changes mind and moves the unit back.

    in this case the unit had not moved further then it should have to get to its location, the unit had not performed any wrong wheels, the player simply decided that the position wasn't what they wanted and move it back to its start. In this case that is simply not allowed (maybe at home over a beer and pretzels game but not a tournament) the unit moved up its movement there is no "redo movement phase" and if there is a rule that lets a player take backsies please let me know.

    Again you can mark your units starting location for reference, 100% ABSOLUTELY! However just because you moved and changed your mind does not permit you to teleport the unit to its starting location, if you need to move backwards fine but only if you have the movement to do so.
  • New

    sure u can also use empty bases for the purpose.
    But when u have to move light troops?
    I use the 1"/ half" L tool to mark my starting position to avoid putting morecstuff on table.

    Moreover, moving a unit with mark allows u to see howcmuch space u have srpind it for further movements, los, charges distance, magic phase.

    I mean im all fine with you not using marks.
    But be aware first time u make an illegal move we can stop playong cause u cant go back to position.

    Moreover it makes battle reports and pov about matchups a bit untrue becausr u are just nerfing yourself by not using them.