Forces of Order, Chaos and eternal doubters

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  • Forces of Order, Chaos and eternal doubters

    Hello 9th Age'ers,

    For no particular reason - cough - we are categorizing the armies of the Ard (working name of the 9th Age world).

    Currently we have it like this:
    • Order: Highborn Elves, Sylvan Elves, Dwarven Holds, Kingdom of Equitaine, Empire of Sonnstahl, Saurian Ancients

    • Neutral: Undying Dynasties, Vermin Swarm, Ogre Kahns

    • Chaos: Warriors of the Dark Gods, Deamon Legions , Beast Herds, Vampire Covenant, Orcs and Goblins, Infernal Dwarfs, Dread Elves
    Is that anywhere near the official 9th Age fluff (if there is such a thing)?

    Any help is welcome.

    Best,

    Pelle
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
  • Of course there is official fluff. The rulebook, the full army books, the scrolls ..
    I think your classification jsn't quite right. Most of what you list as forces of chaos aren't. Beast, orcs and infernals are almost certainly neutral, vampires are a different category entirely and the dread elves could well be argued go be on the order side.
    “The touch of a sword handle is the deadliest poison known to man. It settles in, deeper than the bone, instantaneously. It is a deep curse that can never be lifted and will last you the rest of your days.”
    – Ryo-ten-Ryam
  • Dread Elves on the order side. Right. Eh no. I'll happily ignore this.

    As for Orcs, mhuhahahahahu, we'll crush you and all others, for no good reason!

    Vampires are special sure. And rather evil. Try looking at it from the perspective of the goodies. No place for bloodssuckers raising corpses mate.
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
  • Sure orcs will crush people. But there gods are in no way aligned with chaos over cosmos. The same goes for the Republicans. They worship mostly the same gods as Celeda Ablan.

    I mean, no one forces you to play by the background, but it is very clear.
    “The touch of a sword handle is the deadliest poison known to man. It settles in, deeper than the bone, instantaneously. It is a deep curse that can never be lifted and will last you the rest of your days.”
    – Ryo-ten-Ryam
  • Also the conflict of Chaos and Cosmos does not really map to good and evil easily. The Saurians were a society of brutal slavers. And as for Celeda Ablan, well ask the Raj why they rebelled against there benevolent overlords.
    “The touch of a sword handle is the deadliest poison known to man. It settles in, deeper than the bone, instantaneously. It is a deep curse that can never be lifted and will last you the rest of your days.”
    – Ryo-ten-Ryam
  • Eldan wrote:

    Also the conflict of Chaos and Cosmos does not really map to good and evil easily. The Saurians were a society of brutal slavers. And as for Celeda Ablan, well ask the Raj why they rebelled against there benevolent overlords.
    Celeda Ablan? Where did you read this? Gawd I hope 9th Age finds a way to better expose their background; there seems to be a lot of it, yet noone I speak / chat with here seems to know it.

    Lagerlof wrote:

    How is this a rules question?
    Oh dang, I thought this was the main questions section. Can anyone move it somewhere.
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
  • I think D&D alignements are really good at describing this matter. In this way I would describe races as:
    BH - Chaotic Evil
    DL- Chaotic Evil
    DE- Lawful Evil
    DH- Lawful Neutral
    EOS- Lawful Neutral
    HE- Lawful Good
    ID- Neutral Evil/Lawful Evil
    KOE- Lawful Good
    OK- Neutral
    OG- Chaotic Neutral
    SA- Lawful Neutral
    SE- Chaotic Good
    UD- Neutral
    VC- Lawful Evil
    VS- Neutral Evil
    WDG- Chaotic Evil

    @Squirrelloid knows D&D better, maybe he could check this list :)
  • I wouldn't call the high elves good. Brutal Imperialism kinda doesn't work with that. I'd bump the sylvans to CN borderline CE too.
    “The touch of a sword handle is the deadliest poison known to man. It settles in, deeper than the bone, instantaneously. It is a deep curse that can never be lifted and will last you the rest of your days.”
    – Ryo-ten-Ryam
  • Pellegrim wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    Also the conflict of Chaos and Cosmos does not really map to good and evil easily. The Saurians were a society of brutal slavers. And as for Celeda Ablan, well ask the Raj why they rebelled against there benevolent overlords.
    Celeda Ablan? Where did you read this? Gawd I hope 9th Age finds a way to better expose their background; there seems to be a lot of it, yet noone I speak / chat with here seems to know it.
    The 9th Scroll issue #8 is a good place to start for info about Sagarika and their tense relationship with the Arandai.


    Pellegrim wrote:


    For no particular reason - cough - we are categorizing the armies of the Ard (working name of the 9th Age world).
    The 9th Age world has a name. It is called 'The Earth' in the Daemon Legion book (page 11).

    Rules Clarification

    Lord of the Hobby


    Empire of Sonnstahl Blog, including links to my other blogs
    The 9th Wiki, a community wiki for the official 9th Age background
    T9A: Skirmish Campaigns
  • @DeBelial: thats a huge can of worms you are opening there. alignment is a very controversial topic.

    other than that in my opinion your list looks good. Id should be a hard lawful evil. WDG from the new fluff dont seem that chaotic to me sure they are anti civilisation but they follow a very strict code to ascension --> that depends on your definition of lawful and chaotic --> there are multiple definitions and i dont think adopting the alignment system with its huge discussion and problems will help us to understand the fluff much better.
    Instead i propose to search for short sentences that describe what they want

    for example: Wdg want to ascend to daemonhood. That often brings them in conflict with societies. WDG are anti society (of course you could define chaotic as anti-society, but tgen you have to make those definitions first. The dnd ones are 'wibbly-wobbly')
  • DeBelial wrote:

    I think D&D alignements are really good at describing this matter. In this way I would describe races as:
    BH - Chaotic Evil
    DL- Chaotic Evil
    DE- Lawful Evil
    DH- Lawful Neutral
    EOS- Lawful Neutral
    HE- Lawful Good
    ID- Neutral Evil/Lawful Evil
    KOE- Lawful Good
    OK- Neutral
    OG- Chaotic Neutral
    SA- Lawful Neutral
    SE- Chaotic Good
    UD- Neutral
    VC- Lawful Evil
    VS- Neutral Evil
    WDG- Chaotic Evil

    @Squirrelloid knows D&D better, maybe he could check this list :)
    I really like this approach! Much better then a one-dimensional appraoch.

    Mmmm. Maybe BH are the same as OG (CN), not pure evil. Or do you have reason to believe otherwise?
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
  • Pellegrim wrote:

    DeBelial wrote:

    I think D&D alignements are really good at describing this matter. In this way I would describe races as:
    BH - Chaotic Evil
    DL- Chaotic Evil
    DE- Lawful Evil
    DH- Lawful Neutral
    EOS- Lawful Neutral
    HE- Lawful Good
    ID- Neutral Evil/Lawful Evil
    KOE- Lawful Good
    OK- Neutral
    OG- Chaotic Neutral
    SA- Lawful Neutral
    SE- Chaotic Good
    UD- Neutral
    VC- Lawful Evil
    VS- Neutral Evil
    WDG- Chaotic Evil

    Don't know the full extend of most fluff but I think this list is quite accurate although maybe influenced by WHFB.
    I'd argue that UD might even be Lawful Neutral instead of Neutral, the hierarchy is simple (the bulk of the army simply has no will) while the Pharaohs clearly see themselves as the ruling caste.VS Neutral Evil? I don't know. They seem to be very lawless, strength (or more so cunning) dictates who is the Top Rat. Chaotic would be more appropriate. Then there is WDG. I would argue that Lawful Evil might be more appropriate. The hierarchy is clear but determined by the favour of the gods and Father Chaos which is granted by your actions. Fail the gods, go down the ladder and change into a Fallen/Forsworn and eventually Wretched One/Forsaken one.
    On the other hand, WDG warriors might not care about their Chosen Lord. They want to ascend themselves by their own actions. Lord dies? who cares? Neutral Evil might be more appropriate. Chaotic Evil suggests evil without reason and/or method while the WDG book discribes method to their ways (trying to lure others into their fold by giving in to their sins).
    :UD: :WDG: :DE:
  • I admit I am influenced by WFB.

    IMO Empire humans are not Good, they are humans after all :D Only humans with some squewed sense of honour like specific orders of knights or Equitaine knights can be considered (mostly) good :)

    How about that:
    BH - Chaotic Evil - I still think about them as force of nature with inclination to be evil
    DL- Chaotic Evil - unreasonable (to mortals) destruction, chaotic and evil
    DE- Lawful Evil - cruel order, but order nonetheless
    DH- Lawful Neutral - order and tradition, keep mostly to themselves
    EOS- Lawful Neutral - order, could be good but tempered by typical human flaws like greed and lust for power
    HE- Lawful Good - rather good, but remember that lawful good is also extremist, which allows cruel acts in the name of greater good
    ID- Lawful Evil - cruel order
    KOE- Lawful Good - chivalry and social norms suppress human weaknesses to some extent
    OK- Neutral - they don't give a damn who they'' eat
    OG- Chaotic Neutral - force of nature, doesn't care who they bash
    SA- Lawful Neutral - orderly but little withdrawn lately
    SE- Chaotic Good/Neutral - they are force of nature with inclination to be good (not for tresspassers though)
    UD- Lawful Neutral - as remnants of empire with strict classes, they remain in this state indefinitely
    VC- Neutral Evil - to as they please or die and then do as they please ;)
    VS- Chaotic Evil - I'm not really sure about them in T9A
    WDG- Neutral Evil - maybe wanton destruction is no longer Dark Gods way, still rather not one of the good guys :)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by DeBelial ().