DL: public playtesting comments

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    • Mono Change 1500 points:

      The game was DL & HE vs EoS & SA

      The lists: I carried what I could, 2 harbringers, 2xhorrors, 2xigniters, furies, sky serpents (that name...) and a chariot. No room for the lord daemon or daemon engine.
      HE: shooting a****le list full of S3 bows
      EoS: big unit of regiment, smaller unit of swordsmen, the bird-monstruous cavalry, crossbows, some kind if chariot I didnt underdtand and a couple of warmachines
      SA: temple guard, cores, a dinosaur (sorry guys dont know the name) and a lvl 4 small frog :P

      The game: in the 5th turn the game was a huge mess cause our shooting and magic did nothing until that moment. Draw/defeat for us, didnt finish, was late.

      To the point, the units. I shoud have had more advantage since our opponents used infantry, but the dices didn't want that.

      -Harbringer of change: blazing wings op and they are good casters, nothing to complain about. Veil of shadows is a good choice too if you are facing shooting units. About them shooting from a horros unit was a mess the point that they dont have flamming/divine/hellfire and have to do ir separately.

      -Horrors: they were 20 and 10. Big units dont worth the points you spend, you only shoot with the first 2 ranks and the rest of points are wasted, since if they reach close combat they are lost. I didnt have the chance to shoot at 18UM S4, but the firebolts are really nice having quick to fire. Imo the champion is a must, just to cast blue fire with 1 dice. So ideal unit: 10 horrors+firebots+champion.

      -Furies: meh, I paid the mark of change for the monotheism, they died to give me another turn of shooting&magic, as expected.

      -Sky serpents: we all discussed they are overpriced. It is hard to find a moment to use their special attack, and at the end in most of cases they do same as furies for a higher price.

      -Igniters: same discussion, Imo a bit overpriced. They did not so much since the champions failed all their hits. T3 makes them soft and easy to kill. But was more about my bad luck than the rules. Still had the same impression. The long range is worth paying and quick to fire so good.

      -Blazing chariot: It did nothing but hide behind a hill and pry for the battle to end. They dont march so its hard to move freely as other flying units. At the end it did a perfect shot and killed the hero on a dinosaur (carnosaur?) so made us scream of joy. Not bad at all, we are paying a chariot and a war machine, but needs to be alocated well from the start of the game so it can shoot without moving.

      -path of change: nice. Some spells quite useless (the one to negate inspire presence and hold your ground) since in a mono change you dont fight in close combat, but usable in other contests.

      Overall view: funny, the rules close enough to 8th so you can play fluently.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Skie ().

    • SCORING UNITS:

      It is real that Daemons main serious issue is Scoring Unit due to Scoring Unit rule...

      Scoring Unit should be simple : all unit (except fleeing, flying, skirsmishers and disorganized) with at least a complete rank !!!

      With this simple rule, all unit with minimum coherence (no monster, no skirmishers, no hero, no chariot) can score and it encourage people to play with ranked unit (infantry, monstruous infantry, cavalry etc...).

      So people that just pay 5 minimum cavalry takes risk to not score in case of only 1 casualty !

      CHARACTERS:

      Daemons have lot of characters choice but costs are very expensive, mainly Harbringers.

      Compare to Elves, they have similar profiles but Elves are ~30pts less.
      Khan ogre has better profile than Pestilence Harbringer (2PV more, 1A more, best Mouvement and more options) for only 10pts more...

      So, other thing is that True Chaos Harbringer would be necessary to bring Great Banner True Chaos possibility (today Hold Ranks rule is not possible for polytheist army).

      The post was edited 1 time, last by ObLiK ().

    • I think I'm doing this right? Commentary here, and not in the feedback thread?

      @Mammstein

      Seems like Pestilence vs. Undead is a bad matchup for you. Low damage output means you can't really put the hurting on his huge blocks, and while he's not very offensive either, you can't bring your troops back. I think any Pestilence army would struggle with that, if you aren't able to focus down his chaff and supports, you're just going to get mired in combat and probably draw or minor win/loss.

      @Kapten Kluns

      You might consider putting a harder hitting Special in your army. A medium size unit of Fiends, Crushers, or Hellhounds would probably have helped break the deadlock, especially if he's offering you flanks. It doesn't seem like you really have much in your army that can really take advantage of that.

      I do worry about trying to use a big block of tallymen and harbinger. They aren't very maneuverable, and without a flee option you're at your opponent's mercy if he has something that can handily beat them in combat. He might be a prime candidate to remove in order to get that combat unit. Your Tallymen are still a tempting target, and they don't really lose a whole lot by not taking the Harbinger.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • thanks for the comment and feedback, the thing is that something has to go if there is anything to be added. The problem for me as a DL player is that I think we have a hard time dealing with death stars. Ours is only core/ medium sized units which are either an okey anvil or an okey hammer. So the problem here is that they will fail against many other death stars thanks to 2 reasons. Either they are fewer in number, they always have coretax compared to an death star from special/rare. A third thing is that since the DL nerf was rather large. Its hard to know exactly how well they are doing in the external balance.

      And in this particular matchup I think that with less chaff i would be doomed. My chosen paths played a major role in my victory. And since I choose to do a dual DP monster mash I also had a good enough chans for success. With him having distracting spell, harder to wound and shattered earth monsters was clearly a good pick. Everything i had most often hit on 5+ since distracting had less impact then harder to wound. Stomps were my key to victory.

      And in a way my pestilence harbringer gave way to my victory. Surviving for 3 challenge rounds and pouring in CR from breath weapon and disolving touch.

      But even after 5 combat rounds against the deep watch with an daemon engine in the flank and my wrath DP in combat for 2 rounds I only managed to kill a total of 20 dwarfs. Thats how tough they are. And with a single combat buff they are clearly amazing in all their aspects. If not for stomps I would have lost the combat and the game.

      the Dwarfs aint invincible against us but even with my opponents major mistakes and me playing well enough to always have the upperhand. This in addition of getting of the right spells. I could not break his bodyguard since his lord is simply sooooo much better in cc than mine I could only pray and grind.
    • SuperZombie wrote:

      I think you probably would have done better trying to redirect the Lord's unit, and work on killing the rest. Of course that's not always possible, but I think trying to go all in and destroy that unit is probably exactly what your opponent was counting on you doing.
      Well i destroyed most of his units and thought i had his hold guardians with my dubble charge from a hill with blazing and horrors to his flank with breath weapon of on them. I was wrong and they are just so damn tough, too tough in my opinion. I cant really run my Daemon engine and tallymen block on a wild goose chase for a 190 points spear dwarf unit and I wanted nothing to do with those S6 d3 wounds hold guardians in CC with either my block or engine. I got the rest except one anvil. So multicharge with 1175 Pts against 893 Pts under good conditions + a bunch of spells to my advantage should be able to do it over those many combat rounds. And to table your opponent should always be an option. If not that particular armys point preservation is too high and needs to go down.

      PS I Did redirect his deep watch unit so i got the best deal possible for my charges, I did redirect his hold guardians so they did not see that combat. He only got charges of that i gave him but nothing helped. They would just not die.
    • Points costs don't always tell the whole truth.

      You had what, ~700 points of that in Tallymen /Harbinger? A defensive unit if there ever was one. It can probably hold them up, and won't bleed too much CR, but its not going to be doing the damage needed to kill the Dwarves, especially when bodyguard means you pretty much have to either wipe them out or hope for a bad roll.

      Offensively, that leaves you with about 500 points vs. his 900 points. Looked at in that way, its not really a surprise that it did hold up so well, like it should. Quite possibly you are right though, that being able to have 900+ points in a single very hard to kill unit isn't balanced.

      I don't think I would have charged the Guardians with the Horrors / Chariot, depending on what the rest of the board looked like. Average rolls, you're not doing more than 2 or 3 wounds, and the multi-wound S6 will probably wreck your chariot. So you might win combat, but with LD10, he's not likely to break, and you'll lose next round.

      Of course, now it sounds like I'm proving your argument that daemons are a bit underpowered now! Lol, maybe I am.
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • SuperZombie wrote:

      Points costs don't always tell the whole truth.

      You had what, ~700 points of that in Tallymen /Harbinger? A defensive unit if there ever was one. It can probably hold them up, and won't bleed too much CR, but its not going to be doing the damage needed to kill the Dwarves, especially when bodyguard means you pretty much have to either wipe them out or hope for a bad roll.

      Offensively, that leaves you with about 500 points vs. his 900 points. Looked at in that way, its not really a surprise that it did hold up so well, like it should. Quite possibly you are right though, that being able to have 900+ points in a single very hard to kill unit isn't balanced.

      I don't think I would have charged the Guardians with the Horrors / Chariot, depending on what the rest of the board looked like. Average rolls, you're not doing more than 2 or 3 wounds, and the multi-wound S6 will probably wreck your chariot. So you might win combat, but with LD10, he's not likely to break, and you'll lose next round.

      Of course, now it sounds like I'm proving your argument that daemons are a bit underpowered now! Lol, maybe I am.
      I kinda had to charge the hold guardians, otherwise they would have my rear in the sixth turn and that would be it. I took a gamble that maybe i could weaken them or even win with what i had. 2d6 Sd3+2 hellfire, d6 S4 impacts, 9 S4 hellfire attacks, 9 S3 hellfire attacks. Charge from hill, 2 ranks, flank, standard. He killed chariot (only one guy striking at it) I won combat he stood, whipead me in his fifth turn instead of my turn possible overun into bad spot.

      The tallymen was 550Pts and with 225 of those to be kitted towards dmg output thanks to Harb being there for offence instead of defence (well 185 since reg is defence ^^). Deep guards was 380Pts and General 395Pts Bsb 118Pts. And I think we can assume that deep guards are better anvils/dmg doers than tallymen, just as they should be as a special unit, the question is just by how much considering ppm. 395Pts can be said to go on the offensive there, rest on defence. total point difference put into a % of all units participating in that combat was that Daemons had 31% more points in there than the dwarfs. 5 combat round plus more magic for the DL resulted in BSB dead, nothing more.
      Would the tables have been turned and say that only Engine and Tallymen would have been against the Dwarfs with better of magic rolls for the DH than the DL. This would have been 9% more points for the DHs side and I personally think (even if it is just a gut feeling) That the DH would have wrecked that combat in just 1-3 rounds.

      or maybe im wrong and just a bit startled by Dwarfs rescilience? Cheers :cheers:
    • Dwarves are tough, no doubt.

      I think you're kind of highlighting the fact that no matter what, Tallymen just aren't going to be offensive. Even with an offensive harbinger, they still can't go toe to toe with tough infantry. And really, with 1 S4 attack apiece, that shouldn't be too surprising.

      I think we could come up with some situations where 900 points of Daemons could beat down that dwarven unit..
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • SuperZombie wrote:

      Dwarves are tough, no doubt.

      I think you're kind of highlighting the fact that no matter what, Tallymen just aren't going to be offensive. Even with an offensive harbinger, they still can't go toe to toe with tough infantry. And really, with 1 S4 attack apiece, that shouldn't be too surprising.

      I think we could come up with some situations where 900 points of Daemons could beat down that dwarven unit..
      I am hopeful to that point also =). We probably can come up with something that could win that combat, the only diffuclt part i see is that it needs to be in the DLs favor from a play mecanism to work. Flanks and single wound models in the front so the throne does not shine so brightly.
      The problem I see though in this setup is that if the pendum is swung from anvil plus monster mobility such as in my case was unto hammer/mobility it would also be much more frail in comparison. Remember that I fought against a really hard hitting anvil this time with my own setup. If this were changed we would also get a more brittle combination of daemons that could easily end up loosing alot before this combat even began they would still all hit on 5+ against the same situation i was put before. And charging this unit in the front with anything we have cannot be done Im afraid. So we might actually end up with less combat power in the actual combat at a later stage in the game rather than what I had at the given moment. And with the spells i actually had during the combat is also something that proves, atleast to me how hard they are to beat in CC and how much the DL player has to work towards this. It cant be done mano o many, thats a win for the dwarfs and that is allright. But just how much do we need to out manuevre/out magic and pour into our CC to be able to run away with the win against the Dwarfs combines anvil/hammer single units. All those points are points that are not elsewhere

      Cheers :cheers:
    • My view of the 2nd game last weekend against EoS. Snorri posted his list in their forum. Great guy, great opponent, great game (and bloody, bloody, bloody).

      So my list was essentially:

      • Big Bird w/ Shackles and Scrolls (fire)
      • Harb on Chariot, lvl 2, farseeing
      • 3x 10 horrors (fully upgraded)
      • 2x3 Sky Serpents
      • 5 Igniters w/farseeing
      • 2 blazing chariots w/farseeing
      • Daemon Engine – MoC, PW, Bombard



      This is to the best of my recollection, there’ll probably be mistakes. Snorri and I will chat and write this up properly with the pics, eventually, probably on YouTube.


      Set up: Snorri put his Griffon Knights on his left flank after winning the roll off (flanking deployment style), I then dropped pretty much my entire army In the center. It looked like a mess, and that was the plan- gain first turn and let the flyers do their thing and disperse. The rest of the EoS army went into a standard castle with aggressive options.


      Early Game: One of my opponents cannons went down from a DE rock and the Big Bird ended up saying “meh” and charging a big block of halberdiers. After his last game of miscasting and heading home to the warp on his second spell… he wanted some blood.

      Lore of fire did a great job against the large blocks of Imperial Guard and, particularly, Spearmen.


      The blazing chariots did what they always did- kicked butt and took names. Had a shot down a flank of Imperial Cav, knocking out 5(!) on the first shot. The horrors ended up scoring a wound on them with firebolts, seeing another wound from hellfire. The Cav charged….stand and shoot… and, yeah, 2 more dead cav(!). The poor, lone, Imperial Champion was eaten messily by the horrors.

      Handgunners put a hurting on the Serpents, as is the way of their people.


      The Pope-mobile charged headlong into a 10 unit of horrors… and then took about 3 more turns to get away from them. Seriously, Ward Saves are great.


      Mid-to-Late Game: The Griffons grabbed the objective after stomping a unit of horrors to paste. Big bird and a lone sky serpent shredded the backline of cannons and shooty things after Big Bird waded through the Halberdiers and gutted them to a man.

      The Spearmen were redirected by igniters, while the IG were redirected by a unit of Serpents. This lead to the Daemon Engine wandering his way through the lines to face…the engineer….MARCO COLUMBO (this may have been the fastest fight ever in Fantasy… send flowers to Columbo’s widow).


      IG and Spearmen tag teamed the DE to finally fell the beast after an earlier 3w cannonball. For their trouble, big bird fried the lot with a series of fire spells (ramparts and bolts are great).

      In the end, the griffons held the objective in my deployment, two chariots were stupidly placed by me and crushed by the Popemobile (TILLY!!!!) leaving pretty much them and Big Bird on the table at turn 6. All said, a tie.

      Thoughts:

      • Big Bird just doesn’t work for his points investment. He’s a decent monster, sure, but a tooled up DP would be cheaper and feels more useful.
      • Path of Change (from earlier games) just doesn’t work that well with higher level casters… great for lower level, though.
      • Igniters are… not awful- the nerf was deserved, but feels a bit far (D3+1 shots would be right about in line).
      • Hellfire nerf was a little too much. Up it to D3S3+1 AP(1) and I think it’s sitting pretty. (Maybe even drop the +1 from this suggestion).
      • Horrors are good, but the points cost for, essentially, bows (firebolts+farseeing) feels a bit high.
      • Blazing Chariots are more than fine. Incredibly versatile but take some serious thought to get them to perform at their best.
      • Daemon Engine feels almost… too tough. I still think reversing the T and W would make him more balanced. But that’s just me. That said “One per army” was necessary. Great, great unit.
      • Sky Serpents are fine- I was baffled by the slash reduction, but meh, they’re fine- not a big difference.
      • I still see little to no reason for supreme aspect of change.
      • EDIT: And scoring... scoring is an issue for mono-Change to the point where I almost ignore it, these days. I know the ABC is working on a solution for this.
      All in all, pretty happy with our book at current time. A few things were nerfed a tad too hard, but mono-Change is still a fast list with some serious damage potential and great, great tactical possibilities.
      Goblin, Daemon Legions and Empire of Sonnstahl Player and 9th Age Staffer
      Follow my journey through the world of 9th Age HERE

      The post was edited 1 time, last by SkargitCrookfang ().

    • Dwarves might just be your nemesis. I haven't played them yet with .99 to say how I feel about my army, but there are several differences that I think would help me vs. you.

      I'm usually running at least a level 3. That extra +to dispel is good against their spells.

      Double Lash prince is also usually my preferred setup, so I don't really have to get into combat with those nasty units. Couple turns of S6 shooting works well at softening them up for the kill. It works extra well against Dwarves because of their lack of chaff, albeit I do have to watch out for cannons.

      Of course, my list has its own weaknesses. As our list gets more and more balanced, it gets harder to make a list that can easily "take all comers."
      Classic Ogres for the win! My Blog
    • SuperZombie wrote:

      @Mammstein

      Seems like Pestilence vs. Undead is a bad matchup for you. Low damage output means you can't really put the hurting on his huge blocks, and while he's not very offensive either, you can't bring your troops back. I think any Pestilence army would struggle with that, if you aren't able to focus down his chaff and supports, you're just going to get mired in combat and probably draw or minor win/loss.
      Well yes on 1VS1 i lose, but i managed to do a multiple charge with BSB + tallymen + FoP + 3 flies (in flank), i killed 70 squelettons in 3 rounds.
      Otherwise i mono pestilence isn't good against mass lists. It's not good against strong T and against good AS... sooooooo i don't really know against what it's good.
      I'll play against an ogre next week with my new list. So i'll do a feedback.
      J'veux pas avoir l'air d'une tantouse, mais j'adore le 9e Âge.
    • @jacobkjellerup what a liked about the dual DP var their immense threat range and their potential to really slay medium strong characters. They play really well together and I will defenetly play them again.

      I am a bit unsure if the wrath DP fully payed for himself and might switch him for a caster DP.

      The igniters do feel alot weaker then before, which is understandeble. But their minumum amount of shots stayed the same with thrir maximum output being halved. They clear chaff ok but are one of the weaker chaff in CC and with their pricetag I simply do not like them. Multiple shot (3) would make more sense imo.