Magic Flux & Channelling

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    • Magic Flux & Channelling

      This game is searching balance and rolls like 1d6 wounds removed, but 1 phase of the game still to much random, magic, and this is becouse Magic Flux has too much influence
      There is a lot of bad magic phases like 6-1, 6-2, 5-1, 4-1, 3-1, 2-1
      And others that you cant stop like 1-1, 2-2, 3-3, 4-4, or even 5-5, 6-6, 5,6, 6,5

      The fix is very simple and dont change the actual system too much.
      You roll 2 dices for Magic Flux, then the lowest dice become a d3+1, the highest will be a d6+1, if both dices are the same result just transform any of them in a d3+1 and other in a d6+1
      Nothing more change after add +1 the highest result come dispell dices and the sum of both 1d6+1 +1d3+1 are the power dices of the phase
      Here the 36 possible old and new magic phases

      Dice 1Dice 2Total old windlowest -->become a d3+1+ highest +1 (dispel dices)Total Wind Fixed (power dices)
      1121224
      2131235
      1231235
      2242235
      3141246
      1341246
      3252246
      2352246
      4151257
      1451257
      4262257
      3363347
      2462257
      5161268
      1561268
      5272268
      4373358
      3473358
      2572268
      4484358
      6171279
      1671279
      6282279
      5383369
      3583369
      2682279
      5494369
      4594369
      63933710
      36933710
      641043710
      551054610
      461043710
      651154711
      561154711
      661264711


      As you see with the new system you get Magic Phases between 4 and 11 power dices and between 2 and 7 dispell dices, and more important you never will get power dices twice dispell dices (well just with double 1) or phases with just 1 PD over DC.
      In all magic phases there is between 2 and 4 more power dices than dispell dices, scaling with number of dices (that's mean no more 8vs4 dices) and creating diferent and balanced magic phases

      Some maths
      Power dices
      Phases between 2-4: old 6/36 ---> new 1/36
      Phases between 5-7: old 15/36 ---> new 12/36
      Phases between 8-9: old 9/36 ---> new 15/36
      Phases between 10-12: old 6/36---> new 8/36

      Dispel dices
      Phases between 1-2: old 4/36 ---> new 1/36
      Phases between 3-4: old 12/36 ---> new 8/36
      Phases between 5-6: old 18/36 ---> new 16/36
      Phases with 7 D.dices: old 0/36---> new 11/36

      Number of Power dices over dispell dices
      1 PD over DC old 11/36 --> new 0/36
      2 PD over DC old 9/36 ---> new 20/36
      3 PD over DC old 7/36 ---> new 12/36
      4 PD over DC old 5/36 ---> new 4/36
      5 PD over DC old 3/36 ---> new 0/36
      6 PD over DC old 1/36 ---> new 0/36

      Times you dont get 5 dispell dices
      Old 16/36 ---> new 9/36

      Times you dont get even 4 dispell dices
      Old 9/36 ---> new 4/36

      Number of times that PD are twice DC or almost twice (twice -1)
      Old 16/36 ---> new 5/36

      If you like please like and coment

      Thanks

      The post was edited 6 times, last by trasius ().

    • If we define that nothing with the magic phase and generating dices shall be changed than this is the best proposal I have read so far!

      So this would be a quick win, nothing has to be changed and could be included without rethinking balancing and point costs.

      On the longterm I would prefer a totally reworked magic phase. But that's another topic respectively there are already various threads for magic concepts.

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • ilGetUSomDay wrote:

      I disagree, I do not think the magic phase should be this all reliable part of an army. Magic is the one part of this game that is really high risk but high reward, and I personally like it that way.
      If you really think about all battles, how the army list is built, what time the magic phase takes and what influences successful spells have you can say the following:

      - you could save all the points for wizards and buy more shooting stuff, buff wagons etc. Against most of these the enemy cant do anything (a fireball can be dispelled, missile not
      - I stopped the time for some battles and the magic phase really takes a lot of time, for getting 0-2 succesful spells cast on average
      - the army creation feels like the cold war. No matter how many wizards both armies have, the number of casted spells stays the same. Even if you dont need a wizard or dont want one you mostly take 1-2 just for defensive purpose.



      One thing to your comments "high risk, high reward".
      It has nothing to do with risk, if you always roll 10-12 and your enemy 2-4.
      And having 4-11 instead of 2-12 isnt a big thing. Still a lot of variance but a cut in the random min and max.

      I would prefer a mix of the last editions:
      - about one half of the dice gererating refers to the magic flux
      - the other half should be influenced by the number and type of wizards
      - or something completely different: the magic flux is completely separated from the generating of dices, e.g. the magic flux refills every turn by a special amount (according to the army size) to a max and the wizards have to activate the powers to get dices. So if the magic flux refills slowlier than the gererating of dices there could be phases in which you dont get as many dices as you could referring to your number of wizards.
      - I remember the old Computer games in which the winds of magic refilled every few minutes by a special number of points (not always the same amount I think). And the spells costed a defined number of points depending how strong the spell is. So if you didn't cast a lot of spells you could in some way "save" energy of the magic winds. But there was a maximum.

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


      The post was edited 2 times, last by DJWoodelf ().

    • We do sometimes:

      Roll 4D6, remove highest and lowest one, take the 2 middel ones for magic winds this phase, keep them the same for next magic phase (only roll new for the two removed ones).


      Expample:

      Roll for first Mphase = 2,3,5,6 => Use 3 and 5 for magic dice (as usual 8 Energy and 5 despel)
      Next magic phase 3 and 5 are already fixed, roll 2 new one, => get for example 4 and 6 => remove 3 and 6 => get 4 and 5 => 9 Energy and 5 dispel

      and so on
    • arwaker wrote:

      We do sometimes:

      Roll 4D6, remove highest and lowest one, take the 2 middel ones for magic winds this phase, keep them the same for next magic phase (only roll new for the two removed ones).


      Expample:

      Roll for first Mphase = 2,3,5,6 => Use 3 and 5 for magic dice (as usual 8 Energy and 5 despel)
      Next magic phase 3 and 5 are already fixed, roll 2 new one, => get for example 4 and 6 => remove 3 and 6 => get 4 and 5 => 9 Energy and 5 dispel

      and so on
      did you already test this?
      Feels hardly any time being different than 5 to 9

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • Saying "We do sometimes..." is not clear enough of a statment? Ok, yes, we tested it several times ;)
      It behaved as expected
      a) extreme winds are really rare, but still possible (looks gaussian)
      b) as one can expect a weather to be, the magic wind has a memory of the last phase

      And i'm not understanding what you want to say by "Feels hardly any time being different than 5 to 9".
      Wanna see some statistics?
      Files
      • Energy-Dice.png

        (29.66 kB, downloaded 21 times, last: )

      The post was edited 3 times, last by arwaker ().

    • arwaker wrote:

      Saying "We do sometimes..." is not clear enough of a statment? Ok, yes, we tested it several times ;)
      It behaved as expected
      a) extreme winds (like 2 or 12) are really rare, but still possible
      b) as one can expect a weather to be, the magic wind has a memory of the last phase

      And i'm not understanding what you want to say by "Feels hardly any time being different than 5 to 9".
      Wanna see some statistics?
      I did some statistics. I will post them later to compare current rule to proposal.

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • arwaker wrote:

      Saying "We do sometimes..." is not clear enough of a statment? Ok, yes, we tested it several times ;)
      It behaved as expected
      a) extreme winds are really rare, but still possible (looks gaussian)
      b) as one can expect a weather to be, the magic wind has a memory of the last phase

      And i'm not understanding what you want to say by "Feels hardly any time being different than 5 to 9".
      Wanna see some statistics?
      Sorry I didn't see the diagramm above.


      So this proves that I like the idea because:

      - same average than 2D6 [easily implemented without balancing and points
      problems]
      - less max and min dices [in 87% between 5 and 9, im 97% between 4 and 10]
      - less big changes of number of dices from one turn to the next (the winds
      go up and down but seldom do any u-turns) [in less than 10% the winds
      change by more than 2 from one turn to the next]

      Brillant

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • Dispell dices vs total power dices in each system
      Dice 1Dispel dicesVS Total Power dices|lowest -->become a d3+1Dispell dices (highest +1)VS Total Power Dices
      112|1224
      123|1235
      123|1235
      224|2235
      134|1246
      134|1246
      235|2246
      235|2246
      145|1257
      145|1257
      246|2257
      336|3347
      246|2257
      156|1268
      156|1268
      257|2268
      347|3358
      347|3358
      257|2268
      448|4358
      167|1279
      167|1279
      268|2279
      358|3369
      358|3369
      268|2279
      459|4369
      459|4369
      369|33710
      369|33710
      4610|43710
      5510|54610
      4610|43710
      5611|54711
      5611|54711
      6612|64711
    • How about just get rid of dispel dice and just have dice +1 dice per lv 1 or 2 and +2 dice for lv 3 or 4 up to maximum 4 dice. That way you could cast up to 4 cheap spells unreliably, 2 lower level spells reliably or one high level spell a magic phase.

      It works out close to the same result in the end but so much less rolling back and forth. I would still include 1 dispel scroll per army and that's they only dispel anyone gets just once a game on a critical turn.

      That way each army can plan their strategy around their magic phase. Everyone would still have to roll to see if they get high enough to cast their spells so it's not guaranteed. Even do miscast on Double 1's.

      Magic is just unnecessarily complicated, time consuming and random for only a few spells that matter to get through each game. I played in every edition as magic has changed over the editions and my favorite was the card system. Where you drew cards and could only dispel if you drew a dispel card and you had to use multiple power cards to cast a spell. It was a fun system even though the spells were overpowered a the time.

      Trying to figure out all the spells an opponents has to determine what your going to dispel just is time consuming and kind of annoying in my opinion. I find it unfun when dispelling and when casting. Magic is one area where things could become less complicated and would provide for more fun in the game. At least that's my opinion.
    • Legendary wrote:

      How about just get rid of dispel dice and just have dice +1 dice per lv 1 or 2 and +2 dice for lv 3 or 4 up to maximum 4 dice. That way you could cast up to 4 cheap spells unreliably, 2 lower level spells reliably or one high level spell a magic phase.

      It works out close to the same result in the end but so much less rolling back and forth. I would still include 1 dispel scroll per army and that's they only dispel anyone gets just once a game on a critical turn.

      That way each army can plan their strategy around their magic phase. Everyone would still have to roll to see if they get high enough to cast their spells so it's not guaranteed. Even do miscast on Double 1's.

      Magic is just unnecessarily complicated, time consuming and random for only a few spells that matter to get through each game. I played in every edition as magic has changed over the editions and my favorite was the card system. Where you drew cards and could only dispel if you drew a dispel card and you had to use multiple power cards to cast a spell. It was a fun system even though the spells were overpowered a the time.

      Trying to figure out all the spells an opponents has to determine what your going to dispel just is time consuming and kind of annoying in my opinion. I find it unfun when dispelling and when casting. Magic is one area where things could become less complicated and would provide for more fun in the game. At least that's my opinion.
      I agree with you that the magic phase is too time consuming compared to the final effect (on average 0-2 succesful spells).

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • I think we have to separate the work in two steps or maybe even two different threads

      1. Slight change to the current rule for gererating dices, that needs no rebalancing and therefore could be implemented easily

      E.g.
      Instead of 2D6
      - middle of 4D6 (rotating)
      - D6+1 + D3+1


      2. Totally rework on the magic system
      a) generating spells
      b) generating magic flux
      c) casting and dispelling

      For 2. there are already various threads.
      So I would proposed to only concentrate in this thread on
      "How could the generating of 2D6 dices be changed WITHOUT additional rule changes, rebalancing work and points cost."

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • We need something between 6th and 8th for generating magic flux.

      6th was 2 + magic levels for power dices, 2 + half magic levels rounded up for dispell dice
      8th was 2D6 for power dices and the higher value for dispel dices

      These two principles are the completely contrary, one 100% fix, one 100% random


      I would like:

      either:
      a) something in the middle = dices independent from wizard but dependent from the army size + dices depentent from the number and level of wizards
      On average this should lead to 50% dices generated by random winds of magic and 50% dices generated by wizards.
      So if you go wizard-heavy you will on average have more dices, but the winds of magic lead to a fluctuation.

      b) seperation of the magic flux and the "tapping/sucktion" of the magic flux
      It's like in some of the warhammer computer games.
      There are magic winds represented by a point number and each turn the wind's "storage" increases by a more or less random amount
      This is the potential for casting spells.
      And now the wizards can use this "storage" to cast spells.
      There may accure different things, e.g.
      - the player decides not to cast a lot of spells to save magic energy for the next turn
      - the player used the whole energy in the last turn and the "storage" doesn't increase as much as the player wishes, so he doesn't have a lot of energy
      This system would make it necessary to give each spell a spell value, the energy that the spell "costs".
      This might be between 1 and 5 points

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • I have to agree that magic is very time consuming, in most of my games the end result is defined by magic. The player who gets off the most magic has the highest advantage on the field (Generally because other decisions such as who's in combat that turn are already decided in previous phases).

      I like that magic is powerful because this game is based in a very magically dependant world. However I think there should be more balance in the game. For instance I know that if I roll badly for 2 magic phases in a row that I am most likely to lose. I do like the idea initially proposed because I would like to see more balance between PD & DD so that the outcome is based more on the rolls than the fact that I simply don't have enough dice to even try dispelling.

      Maybe we could dispense with the DD being based on Magic Flux and say that the defending wizard can roll an amount of DD equal to power dice used less 1; they still have a chance to dispel by rolling high but there is that little more chance of the casting wizard succeeding, particularly with a good roll. This would cut down the decision making time involved for dispelling, it would also mean that players would use magic as a bonus but not have to 'count' on it to succeed.
    • Maybe an other way to balance the magic phase could be to make only one roll per turn of each player.
      Like this a bad wind turn will be the same for both player. A battle could be a bad one for magic, but not anymore only for one player.
      There is many way to use this concept, so for exemple something like this:
      -----------------------------------

      at the magic phase of first player throw 3D6. The result will be the magic wind for the 2 next magic phase ( player 1 and 2). The both player get the same number of dice, and will be used for launch and dissipate spell. Player should managed to keep enough dice for next phase.

      Each mage could get some extra dice to launch his own spell. The number of this extra dice is equal to the mage level. And a mage could never use more than 1 extra dice to launch a spell.
      The extra dice doesnt count in the limitation of 5 dice to launch a spell, but they count for fiasco.

      In addition:
      to avoid army list abused on magic, a limitation of the total mage level should be add.
      Something like 1 + 1 level of mage per / 500 Pts. ( so max 5 levels for 2000pts, max 6 levels for 2200pts etc)
      The level repartition is free. (4x level 1 or 1x level 4 for 1750pts)
      cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
      SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.

      The post was edited 6 times, last by Casp ().

    • I like the mage level limitation per army point value. It would help to keep down the number of casters and means you would have less spells to bog down decisions. It would make spell choice more important, which I really like. I have played games where I've had tons of spell choice which is great but choosing which to cast each turn does take ages. I think this gets a huge +1 for me.

      However I don't like the idea of splitting your dice over 2 phases because you will always have the same 're-active' player. This puts one player at a huge disadvantage strategy wise.

      It could be worth saying that the winds stay the same over a whole 'game turn' so we stick to a single turn roll but that roll is then matched in the phase. So basically a swap of which player uses the PD and DD.