Dispel scroll as an auto-include: potential fix discussion

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    • MOMUS wrote:

      Monjis wrote:

      Still can't understand what's the problem with the current dispel scroll.

      Theorox wrote:

      It's pretty much an auto-include, and you almost never see a list without it.
      Theo
      Some people believe it an auto include, others don't.
      The people that believe it is are arguing for the choice to be taken away from the players.
      So, according to then the reasoning is:

      Lots of people like this protective item, and are willing to make sacrifices to use it.
      Therefore, it must be destroyed.


      I feel I'm still missing something...
      Undead Legions should be back from the grave! With blackjack. And hookers!

      In fact, forget about Undead Legions...
    • @Monjis

      The problem with the scroll is that it is taken to the exclusion of almost every other arcane item. There are a lot of arcane items that never see play because of how important it is to have the scroll.

      This does not mean that the other items are bad, but that the scroll is (and always will be) more valuable for one reason: it is dependable defense against a phase of the game that is both game changing and random. A lot of the suggestions posted here are great, but many of them only provide additional randomness (extra dispel dice and the like). The reason people take the scroll is they want the control to perfectly defend against that one game changing spell.

      Some people don't use the scroll, and that is great. But there is no other item in the game where someone will take an otherwise unneeded character just to have that item.

      I personally love the scroll. It is, to me at least, an integral part of the warhammer gameplay. But, if it is an issue of people not wanting to take other items due to limited wizard availability, I would rather let everyone have the item effect rather than nerf it or remove it in the hopes of people taking other items.
    • If 75% of armies take the dispel scroll (which is the percent I think do, even higher percentage for tournaments), then it makes more sense to give each army the ability once a game. It doesn't have to come from a mage. It's just an army ability everyone has. Just like each army gets so many winds of magic dice it also comes with a dispel scroll that can be used once a game.

      This allows for more arcane options and potentially more fun. While still giving everyone magic defense. It also eliminates that 125 point wizard just to get the dispel scroll that you would rather not take and is just wasted points. Also you can go wizardless and still get by without having to take that expensive other dispel scroll. I prefer this option.

      I have come to terms with the overly complicated and random magic phase. Although I feel, It really needs something more and getting rid of dispels scrolls (by just making them an innate army ability part of the magic phase) for other arcane items could be it.

      Another option is to make dispel scroll count as either arcane or enchanted item or talisman (the source of the dispel can come in many forms). That would allow you to take the dispel scroll and another arcane item on lord level casters.

      As a side note, This is another ability I would like to see for the general. I think that everyone's army general should allow one reroll charge a turn or one reroll rally, no distance limitation. Part of being a general, planning, directing and rallying troops. You would have to nominate which unit gets the reroll at the beginning of the phasebefore dice are rolled . This would make the game less reliant on those critical turn 3 and 4 charge rolls or one bad panic test and then run off the table next turn. This helps stop those 1 in every 6 games where either you fail almost every charge or half your army just runs of the table because you can't make an Ld check. Making those games incredibly lopsided and unfun to play by either player.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Legendary ().

    • MOMUS wrote:

      @Legendary

      By the same logic would you have BSB and lvl4 caster as auto includes for everyone?
      It depends on what you mean. Both are great, but if you use a high leadership army, you might not want a BSB. Or maybe you just want a few low level casters instead of the big one. Most people use them, but the big difference is that they are characters, not items. Most armies have similar characters: combat lord, caster lord, combat hero, caster hero. The big difference is how you choose to equip them. Maybe I want my great shaman to be equipped for combat, so I give him khagadai's maul and a ward save. Maybe I want him to be a better caster, so i give him the book of arcane power. There can be a lot of variation with this.

      However, with the scroll, there is no variation. You have it or you don't. And it is very common that people are buying a level 1 Mage to be the scroll caddy. Magic is a limited resource: you only get so many dice each turn. You most likely will be using the level 4 caster for all of your magic needs. Many games have gone by where the scroll caddy literally did nothing but carry the scroll. At least the BSB is still a combat character.

      So yes, a BSB and a level 4 may be seen as auto-includes, but they are at least fulfilling an independent role in the army that can vary depending on gear choices. The scroll fulfills one role while excluding people from using other items because it takes up a slot that is only available on wizards.
    • I don't like auto includes either but I don't think the solution is to make is available for free to everyone. I have yet to see an army (except for undead) to not bring a BSB. It is essentially a 25 pt. Upgrade to a hero level character that is probably the cheapest upgrade for usefulness in the entire game. Does this mean it should be an auto include? I think the best solution to auto includes is to make them more expensive. That is enough. Everything has a Max price that someone it willing to pay for it. This price point is unique to every army, point level, army list type, game type, player etc. Just make it 50 points and be done with it. Or make it 75 points but allow any wizard to take it regardless of point limit. I do admit that sometimes something is so overpowered or underpowered that changing points will not solve the problem. But this occurs very rarely and I don't think this is the case here
    • The dispel scroll is a one time use only item. That is why it's not very problematic to include it as a freebie.

      It can't be compared to a BSB whose rerolls are used many times a turn over several turns. Additionally, the BSB has magic items and banner that can affect many things in the game. Also it is also a combat character and dish out wounds. It is NOT a one time reroll for Ld. That is required for everyone to take in order to be competitive. If it was I would suggest it to be replaced by a freebie as well.

      The Lv 4 wizard always participates in every magic phase on both players turn. That is 12 magic phases assuming he lives. He can cast up to 4 spells normally with attributes. Changing the game in multiple ways. He can also be the general thus conferring his Ld. Additionally he can have other magic items that affect the game substantially. It is NOT a one time cast one spell per game. That is required for everyone to take in order to be competitive. If it was I would suggest it to be replaced by a freebie.

      The logic here is upside down. The dispel scroll is the only item in the game that is required to have at a tournament. It is necessary do to how powerful some spell are in certain circumstances. It's utility is for only one phase on only one turn of the game. Please make the appropriate comparisons. There is no other item that fits in this category of a must take and only useful in such a narrow window but you have to take it. Can we please compare somewhat similar things instead of just grabbing anything and making a terrible comparison.
    • Legendary, your argument is basically that magic has a really profound effect on the game and that one spell can potentially change the course of the game.

      The solution to this is not to give every army a one time "free dispel". Instead, you should be looking at magic and seeing how it can be toned down to have a less powerful/game changing effect.

      Using your logic, why not give every army a one time "special ward save" that can be used one time during the game to save a wound? Certainly, there are situations when one extra wound will make a huge difference (it will tip the balance of the main CC or maybe it will kill off a main hero/monster. This is especially true for undead for which losing the general is a disaster.

      Also, giving a "free dispel" scroll to every army will allow armies to take no wizard at all or to take 1 wizards with some awesome arcane item.
    • Phil_Helmuth wrote:

      I remember playing Khorne armies and Lizardmen armies with 4 scar vets in sixth ed... that was not fun.

      I know that is not going to happen with 9th ed, but having a free dispel scroll and no wizard is not going to be positive I believe. But that is just my opinion.
      I respect that.

      Still, I think it would be a positive for the game, since it allows people to start bringing other arcane items. The game is not broken in half by having or not having the scroll as a purchasable item (in most armies, the scroll caddy will cost between 100 and 150 points all together). But on the other hand, the fact that the term "scroll caddy" exists should indicate 2 major things:

      - People really like the dispel scroll
      - People are willing to buy a character that is completely useless outside of its ability to take the scroll

      I don't think that 100-150 points one way or another is going to transform the game into hardcore herohammer. It just will open up a bunch of possibilities that weren't considered before.
    • To be honest I am not in a huge disagreement with you as having a free scroll won't break the game, but I don't like this type of mechanic. I am not sure that it is totally accurate to say that a "scroll caddy" is useless except for the dispel scroll. This is because you are now making a statement about wizard level heroes in general. You are basically asserting that a wizard level character with no arcane item is useless. I don't think that is true. Maybe it is time to think the dispel scroll? Maybe we can make dispel scroll weaker bit much cheaper and allow them to be taken multiple times and. It count as arcane items?
    • I am not saying that hero level casters are useless. What I am saying is that scroll caddys tend to be useless because you have already bought a level 4 caster if you are bringing a scroll caddy. You are paying the minimum amount of points possible to have a character carry the scroll. Meanwhile, you have totally decked out your level 4 wizard, probably with the book and a ward save, maybe a weapon, but in any case, he is your primary spell caster, and that level 1 scroll caddy will not cast a single spell during the game because you are focusing on the level 4.

      That is the scenario I am referring to when I talk about scroll caddys.
    • I'm not reading through all of this, but I agree with the OP- it is auto-inc- that or the non-magic army equivalent.

      I don't take it out of principle, at this point (well, Seventh Seal, but whatever).

      I really, really liked the +12 to dispel from an older version. Certainly, a powerful item, but if one is irresponsible with their dispel dice, it may not matter in the end- and may end up not mattering from a particularity strong miscast.

      Also, it tends to be held up as an insurance policy against tactical magical play- which is fine, I guess, but the auto-dispel is just..bleh. Boring. What about adding an extra free Dispel dice at *2 or *3 once per game? Or just revert to the +12 (which was awesome).
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      • @SkargitCrookfang I agree about the auto dispel being a little meh. +12 was more tactical.
      • @lawgnome I understand your argument but my conclusion from it is that taking a hero level wizard alongside a level 4 is "useless". It used to be true that if you had a level 4 and level 1, the +4 to cast meant that you would use all your PD with your level 4. But now it is only +2 vs +1 so not a huge Difference and having 2 wizards in different parts of the battlefield is definitely an advantage