If you don't like it, there's the door, but don't break my toys on the way out!

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  • If you don't like it, there's the door, but don't break my toys on the way out!

    Last night I watched a video that set my inner daemons on fire. Today, I felt to share my thoughts regarding to this on my blog:

    anempirefallen.blogspot.co.nz/…-like-it-theres-door.html

    However now, I feel a need to speak my concerns regarding this to you all. Please understand these are my thoughts, feelings and opinions based on what I have read and seen over the past few months.

    The 9th Age is a great initiative that has hugely grown in support and players since its birth. But it's not for everyone. And that is fine. No one ever said that you had to play 9th. It was made for you as a player, so if you chose to, you could. If you enjoy it, and it makes you happy, then that is great. If it doesn't no one is forcing you to stay and play.

    But if you decide to leave, then leave. If you decide you do not wish to play, then don't. But don't then feel an entitlement to go and bash the game or those who play and support it. And this is a gaming scene as a whole, not just 9th. With any game. Don't go and break other's toys because you don't like the game they play.

    9th is a community driven, not community owned game. We are all stakeholders in it, but we are not share holders. Changes and developments effect our invested interest in it, but we don't have a power to then turn around and say well if you don't do it the way I want it, then its all doom and gloom for your game, and I am going to bash you across the internet. By all means, offer constructive criticism. Create discussion about these things to bounce opinions. But when you don't get what you want, do not go having a world wide web tantrum.

    Even as part of the team in a certain capacity, I am not a shareholder. I am a stakeholder. And like any game, there will be things I do not like or enjoy or think should happen. But just because those are my feelings, I don't have a right to go become an internet warrior and tear apart anyone who thinks otherwise. They are just my opinions, and the bottomline is, the decision isn't up to me.

    So by all means, if you enjoy and love this game, as I do, play it. Have fun with it. Get creative.
    But if you don't enjoy it, if you don't want to play it, then don't, and leave it at that. Don't go on an internet hating spree. That's just unwarranted self righteousness, and other then putting down others who enjoy the game, you just end up making yourself look like an (CENSORED).

    Forum Moderators, if you feel my post to be too explicit or dark on this issue, I have no problems with you removing it. This is my opinion on a massive issue effecting the global wargaming scene, and I have seen a lot of it happening in these forums and around this game. And this is by no means me hating on anyone or any game.
    The Beast Herds have heard the Call. The Blood Hunt is coming to Play.
    Run and Hide, Run and Hide. For come the Break of Day,
    Blood will run as we catch our Prey.....

    anempirefallen.blogspot.com
    facebook.com/anempirefallen

    T9A Armies: Beast Herds, Empire of Sonnstahl, Warriors of the Dark Gods, Dread Elves, Orcs & Goblins
  • Funny you should say 'don't break my toys', given the way the premier cavalry army (Bretonnia) of the old game has been broken into a cheap infantry horde army a la O&G or Skaven...

    When the jack-of-all-trades army (Empire) can do cavalry better than the dedicated cavalry army, that's a problem, and counts as you having broken MY toys.

    (Although, in fairness, I have to admit you've done a good job on the rest of the armies. Yes, my DE have been heavily nerfed, but they really needed it for the sake of balance. Skaven are still horde infantry and (granted, slightly less) wacky magic and war machine support. Dwarves are FINALLY an infantry force to be reckoned with even without guns. The Empire is a supremely flexible force, being able to support any number of builds and still be competitive. Lizzes, like DE, have been suitably nerfed for balance without being OVER nerfed.

    Now that the rest of the armies are in good shape... can we PLEASE fix EoS properly?)
  • An Empire Fallen wrote:

    Last night I watched a video that set my inner daemons on fire. Today, I felt to share my thoughts regarding to this on my blog:

    anempirefallen.blogspot.co.nz/…-like-it-theres-door.html

    However now, I feel a need to speak my concerns regarding this to you all. Please understand these are my thoughts, feelings and opinions based on what I have read and seen over the past few months.

    The 9th Age is a great initiative that has hugely grown in support and players since its birth. But it's not for everyone. And that is fine. No one ever said that you had to play 9th. It was made for you as a player, so if you chose to, you could. If you enjoy it, and it makes you happy, then that is great. If it doesn't no one is forcing you to stay and play.

    But if you decide to leave, then leave. If you decide you do not wish to play, then don't. But don't then feel an entitlement to go and bash the game or those who play and support it. And this is a gaming scene as a whole, not just 9th. With any game. Don't go and break other's toys because you don't like the game they play.

    9th is a community driven, not community owned game. We are all stakeholders in it, but we are not share holders. Changes and developments effect our invested interest in it, but we don't have a power to then turn around and say well if you don't do it the way I want it, then its all doom and gloom for your game, and I am going to bash you across the internet. By all means, offer constructive criticism. Create discussion about these things to bounce opinions. But when you don't get what you want, do not go having a world wide web tantrum.

    Even as part of the team in a certain capacity, I am not a shareholder. I am a stakeholder. And like any game, there will be things I do not like or enjoy or think should happen. But just because those are my feelings, I don't have a right to go become an internet warrior and tear apart anyone who thinks otherwise. They are just my opinions, and the bottomline is, the decision isn't up to me.

    So by all means, if you enjoy and love this game, as I do, play it. Have fun with it. Get creative.
    But if you don't enjoy it, if you don't want to play it, then don't, and leave it at that. Don't go on an internet hating spree. That's just unwarranted self righteousness, and other then putting down others who enjoy the game, you just end up making yourself look like an (CENSORED).

    Forum Moderators, if you feel my post to be too explicit or dark on this issue, I have no problems with you removing it. This is my opinion on a massive issue effecting the global wargaming scene, and I have seen a lot of it happening in these forums and around this game. And this is by no means me hating on anyone or any game.
    Just visited your blog, and I have to say that I totally appreciate the irony of the situation. I posted a link to the exact same video rant a few days ago in the thread about Core requirements and the Core tax. That video rant sufficiently rankled me as well!

    I too followed that particular Youtube Channel since about 2013, and like you, this latest video also finally stretched my patience to the breaking point.

    You are 100% right about what you said with reference to players who speak of Warhammer and 9th as if they "own" the game and act as if the ideal version of the game revolves them and until it's realized they'll just rant about how unreasonable and how much the devs. don't truly understand the game they are making.

    Our gaming group plays old editions of Warhammer, AOS, and we've already tried out 9th Age. We don't play competitively, we simply play as a bunch of friends who love miniature armies, and get enjoyment out of all the rulesets, while making our own special house rules for things that we personally decide to tweak and experiment with.

    But with this whole "official capacity" thing, in that rant where he said, "I can't see myself playing this game"...but then goes on a 14-minute rant about how GW is to blame for Core, and essentially dictating to the 9th Age devs. what they "need to do" to "make the game playable", and that by keeping Core they're helping GW to sell models - I mean it unraveled, you can see that it's really about GW being his chosen target to complain about, for the sake of complaining - which is really like saying that they're making a sub-standard game and aren't smart enough to make it playable - well now gee ain't that a fine howdy doo? It was no coincidence that in two and a half years, that rant received the most dislikes of any video he ever posted. He usually has near 100% likes because he talks so intelligently and articulately about wargaming, but this time it just backfired. Granted, he's hamstrung because he only plays at tournaments and so would have to play whatever official final version of 9th Age is.

    But I couldn't help after listening to that level of self-entitlement, "this is what I WANT TO SEE for this game" - well that's fine, you can want whatever you want. But as you said, don't go on a hating rant about how much this ruins your gaming world and how much it's blocking your ability to play the game. I told him that if he didn't like what 9th Age was going to be, to go and play something else more to his liking then. Simple!

    You said it perfectly. This game is community driven, but not community OWNED. And to take that a step further, Warhammer was never OUR game. It was A game that had good and bad elements, it wasn't perfect. Nor will 9th Age be perfect. 9th Age will be a game that will have things that people like and things that people don't like. But it doesn't "belong" to anyone, not to the point where they feel entitled to declare what they insist would make the game playable for them.

    This most recent rant really made me see more clearly the inconsistencies in many of his rants over the past year, particularly since last July when AOS was first released. Back then he roundly trashed AOS as only being fit to sell in Toys R US as a kids' game, and trashed it for not having a points system. Yet in this recent video he PRAISED AOS for the very same things that he trashed it for last year, and he did it because it served his current mood and his current attitude towards the game. Wouldn't quite call that narcissism, but darn it sure does come close.
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Baranovich ().

  • Or if you don't like it : help to improve it.

    I really don't like this way of thinking "if you're not as happy as i am you should GTFO"...
    " Des chercheurs qui cherchent, on en trouve. Des chercheurs qui trouvent, on en cherche " Charles de Gaulle
    " Si l'on bâtissait la maison du bonheur, la plus grande pièce en serait la salle d'attente " Jules Renard
    " Plus j'aime l'humanité en général, moins j'aime les gens en particulier " Fedor Dostoïevski
    " Only in the darkness can you see the stars " Martin Luther King Jr
  • Yes, let's not be absolutist about complex issues please.

    Usually I read the "Don't like it? There's the door." speech from hard-core conservatives on issues ranging from equal rights to immigration.

    Designing something great is a complex task that demands a delicate balance of inspiration, broad understanding of issues involved, and good salesmanship - telling people to take it or leave it can create blow-back.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, this includes both the staff members deeply involved and the less-informed public, but it should never be used to quash debate.

    Let me put this another way.

    Just because I might get upset over the cost of a hip replacement, doesn't make me an idiot because I lack a medical education.

    Just my 2c.
  • I understand what people are saying about the absolutism of "like it or leave it", kind of akin to "America, love it or leave it!". It doesn't leave a lot of room for any questions, debate, or discussion about improving anything.

    But I think that what the OP was getting at more was the absolutism that takes place in the OTHER direction. Namely, "I don't like the current state of the game, so I will not play it, and I'm going to tell you yet again why I won't play it" - and then that person keeps having to remind you that they won't be playing it. That video by Sustainable Center was a tricky one to analyze, because Anthony is very intelligent, articulate, and knowledgeable of fantasy wargaming, no doubt of that. But in this case, support for the game turned into another anti-GW rant, which in turn led to a boycott of him playing the game until 9th removes the Core requirement altogether. It was the attitude that somehow the game revolved around him, and that he was entitled to satisfaction. It's just the attitude that somehow Warhammer was OWNED by the tournament community, and that it was THEIR game that GW swept out from under them like a rug. It wasn't their game, nobody owned the game, any more than anybody owns the lore of Star Wars or Lord of the Rings. We may not like certain things that George Lucas did with the Star Wars lore and the direction he took it in - but we can either accept it or not and like what we like about it and not like what we don't about it. But to rant and rave and say "Oh, look what George Lucas did to OUR favorite story of all time" - um, no.

    Our response to him was, if you don't like 9th Age in its current form, and you refuse to play it all in its current form - well there's plenty of other games you've been heaping praise on that you can go play.

    And to be fair, Anthony DOES play Kings of War and other games, so it's not like he just quit everything and folded his arms in protest. He's more mature than that.

    But man, ever since AOS came out, he has slowly unraveled. GW is his dart board, and he hasn't stopped throwing darts since July of 2015 when AOS was released. But the clincher in this most recent rant was that he blamed the existence of Core on GW, which is absolutely ridiculous. You listen to that video, and it sounds like GW owes him a personal apology for "making him" buy so many Core models over the years, models that he didn't want to own but was forced to. I mean, parts of it border on pure narcissism. Not quite, but it does approach it.
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Baranovich ().

  • I don't think this guy understands list balance and the absurd sh&it that would happend if people had another 625 to fck with in special and chars.

    Frankly he sounds like a filthy casual who can't make core work for him.

    You've got to expect more and more of this tear down crap as we proceed since kow players will want their game to win the looming bluray vs. hddvd battle.

    Don't sweat it. He's gonna have to eat crow in about a years time.
    8=D
    @Dan 's Roomate
    Epic Poster
    8,000th and 9,000th forum member
  • Vulcan wrote:

    The funny part is, KoW will require him to buy far more 'core' to unlock 'special and rares' than WFB ever did...
    AHA! Exactly...bingo!

    That's what cracks me about his GW greed conspiracy theory. He talks about KoW like it has absolutely no Core requirements, which is total and utter nonsense! As you said, KoW requires you to buy a huge amount of stuff in the form of hordes and battalions, but that's different because it's not GW doing it? Laughing out loud.

    And the fact that KoW might have cheaper miniatures available for it, and Mantic miniatures are cheaper than GW, no denying that - but the point is that the principle is still the same! The KoW rules require you to have a certain amount of troops to unlock other stuff as you said - so Mantic is doing the exact same thing as GW! Not to mention the fact that if it's GW's prices that Anthony is having a meltdown over, WHAT is stopping Anthony from buying from the cheaper Mantic minis to fill out his Core for 9th Age???

    This is an agenda based around being personally butthurt over GW discontinuing WHFB and he's been on a witch hunt ever since. GW took "his game" from "his community". It's also hilarious how he praises the GW Blade Dancer elf models for how cool they are, but then condemns and curses the very same company that makes those very same minis. That's just amazing.
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!
  • avalterra wrote:

    Actually this bring up a question I've had that i can't seem to find the answer to. What, exactly, is the relationship be tween T9A and GW? Is this a license? An OGL? A "we'll look the other way as long as you don't <<fill in blank>>?

    I'll bet it is discussed somewhere. Can anyone toss me a link?
    No relationship whatsoever. T9A is a standalone ruleset, written from scratch, and the team has absolutely no affiliation with GW or any of its products.

    Modinator

  • Indeed, 9th age is purely fan-made but done on a exceptionally professional level.

    It's like a total war or Skyrim mod. Built off a company's project but has loads of features and dedicated work put into it that the company neglected to do.

    On topic, it's people like him that make me not want to touch Mantic or KoW games. The whole fan base acts like their game is perfect and don't hesitate to put down games like AoS or 9th. There are some exceptions of course, which can be very enjoyable hobbyists, but it's hard not to go into a KoW tournament thread without hearing " once 9th garage hammer is dead-".

    Well there's my rant for the day. :)
  • I don't want to face min/maxed skirmish lists composed of 100% elite units. I want a battle between armies, and every real army I've heard of was composed of far more average derps than it was super secret special forces.

    It's his channel, he can say what he wants, but yikes, the sense of entitlement was getting pretty comical there.
    I would rather lose on my own terms than win on someone else's.
  • Drakkar du Chaos wrote:

    Or if you don't like it : help to improve it.

    I really don't like this way of thinking "if you're not as happy as i am you should GTFO"...
    please don't for a moment take my stance as me giving an ultimatum. That is not the point.

    Nor is this a target at a proportion of grumblies who aren't getting what they want in certain areas but are pushing through.

    This is an issue with extremist style gamers, who treat the game as love or die , who make it their mission to make everyone else's experience terrible if they themselves don't like it, and to spell "doom and gloom" about a game because they are upset over something where they didn't get their way.

    The fact is, majority of us are adults. But when people like TSC (who, as I have earlier stated I have been a loyal follower of his channel for years) pack a tantrum over something they don't like, declare they won't play the game,
    And then make a huge fuss about it all over the internet, well, then yes, leave my toys alone. Find the door. And find a game that you enjoy, and leave us to the game we enjoy.
    The Beast Herds have heard the Call. The Blood Hunt is coming to Play.
    Run and Hide, Run and Hide. For come the Break of Day,
    Blood will run as we catch our Prey.....

    anempirefallen.blogspot.com
    facebook.com/anempirefallen

    T9A Armies: Beast Herds, Empire of Sonnstahl, Warriors of the Dark Gods, Dread Elves, Orcs & Goblins
  • An Empire Fallen wrote:

    (who, as I have earlier stated I have been a loyal follower of his channel for years)
    Come on guys ! It is Anthony from TSC we are talking about :)
    He has always been like that. Where OB and Malorian have this "nice" style in their videos, TSC has the "yell and bawl" style
    How many of you in here did not have a good laugh about his "10 reasons I hate skavens" ? Hands up ;)
    He has always been like that, and people who has followed his channel in 8. edition knows that
    Do I think it was cool he made that video ? No. I would rather have been with out it. But on the other hand. If some people take Anthony a 100 % serious, that says more about them than TSC :D
    And just to point it out. How many of his followers on youtube do you think sits on this forum ? My guess is, that it is a good part of them, so one could argue, that he made that video for the wrong audience. But I guess he will notice, when his number of followers is lowered drasticly, if all in here that did not like the video, stop following his channel ;)

    Christoffer
    Banned for posting memes - twice :D

    Herminard wrote:

    *nerfs are so 2016
  • I think TSC sounds a bit frustrated...my point of view state that core should be a part of an army...thats just plain logic...no army without core regiments...the bulk of an army normally consists of core regiments....

    However, if you are a competitve tourney player and you are fighting another player with his army, and the power difference between the 2 core regiments are not balanced....i can feel a little what he is saying...

    Core regiments require 25%...if core regiments between 2 armys are not balanced, on 2500 points you are fighting with a 600 points disadvantage which you are forced to take.

    If core is more or less balanced i see no problem at all...

    Core is, was, and should allways be a valid force in each army...

    just my 2c

    Z.
  • @An Empire Fallen you are 100% right and your concers and thought s are valid.

    But, its TSC his own channel, he can say what he want, just as we can say what we find of his video...

    Freedom of speech thing...

    I do not agree with him, but if i do not like it i should not watch it...

    In my opinion by giving reply to his video...you put it in a highlight...

    Personally i think it is better to leave it in the dark..

    Negative publicity is still publicity..you know...

    Z.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Zacharanzas ().