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  • LAB idea ( @Masamune88)
    Cull all commanders and adepts
    Main two options: Prince or Master Mage
    (too long to write about honours)
    Increase every units ld +1, fix all Charecters at 10.
    Implementation of new awsr, ala WotDG, that gives army wide ld rerolls but units cannot use gen ld.

    Have another unit like FW with fearless or unbreakable (probably LG)

    Make LG skirmish only so they cannot be RF unit.....

    I was writing a book for aux section but real life got in the way :D
  • Been getting back into 6th edition recently, Rob Lane dominated with his all cav high elf list for a while back. What's interesting about it is it featured 2 mounted commanders with minimum equipment (armour, barding, great weapon) that were dirt cheap, and a mounted prince, all 3 were used as cowboys/support pieces/flankers running around on their own. Don't think it's something we'd really consider now but vaguely interesting given the commander discussion.
  • Was that 3 Silver Helm 4 Tiranoc Chariots list you are talking about?

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  • BondageGoatZombie wrote:

    Can there really be such different views depending on army bias?
    Very much yes.

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  • BondageGoatZombie wrote:

    Was recently reading one of the 'undead can regrow champions' complain thread, and one VC player actually said he is afraid to put his vampire against elf lords.
    Can there really be such different views depending on army bias? What is the best anti vampire prince you can think of?
    The spear does ~1.3 wounds to a vampire with a 4++, and if the lord has armour of destiny I don't think the Vamp is that likely to one-shot him.
    Considering dead vamp = real bad times, I can see the aversion.

    Its low chance to go bad as far as risks are concerned, but it has big repercussions, so it makes sense to avoid unless pressured.
    Hristo Nikolov
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    This is probably controversial but MoCT Honour is from my point of view causing more design problems than opportunities it is opening for diversified game play.
    Haha, bless you for sticking your neck out :D
    You are, of course, correct.

    The problem isn't necessarily within MoCT itself, rather than the components it replaces. Currently, MoCT is more or less equivalent to the ability to get a BSB upgrade on a mage, SA-style.

    If you elect not to do that, you are faced with two problems:

    - 200 points commander BSB, with few useful upgrades available where he can pull his weight - the commander himself can either take Mithril and a GW for 70 pts and go be a frontliner - where his contribution is the same as about 2 swordmasters worth under 60 pts - or a bow, QC, and moonlight arrows for 60 pts, where his output is that of roughly that of 4 Queen's guard, with the QTF contributing about the same as 2 extra QG - i.e. 6 QG total for a worth of ~180.
    TL;DR, the BSB upgrade ends up costing between 100 and 200 points depending on use; as the chasis is so very useless in doing anything else (a common problem throughout the game admittedly, but very pronounced here)

    - Master of Spellcrafting is priced entirely on the mage initial cost, rather than split between it and the Wizard Master upgrade. This means while a wizard master is a fine deal, the additional mage you'd often need comes with a 15ish point tax. Not the biggest problem, but it adds to the one above.

    MoCT BSB with a GW and Mithril (lets say in a frontliner context) clocks out at 405 points. He doesn't add a lot of damage, but he doesn't detract either and has just enough protection not to get his head kicked in by random nonsense. Alternatively, for +10 points more he can exchange the GW and armour for Elu's Heartwood and also shoot.

    BSB with a GW and Mithril and a separate Adept clock in at 270 + 225 = 495 points. The setup performs pretty the same function but costs 90 points more; for -10 points the BSB can exchange the GW and Armour for QC and moonlight and also shoot. I'd argue QC and Elu are comparable.

    This means MoCT saves you ~90 points for a combat character (not a single honour is effectively relevant for him, so the empty slot is irrelevant), and around ~70 when shooting support. If you consider MoCT has 3 spells and not 2, even if the 3rd is often 7th in list and therefore slight surplus, you are down around 100 points.

    This could be seen as MoCT being 100 points too cheap, but when you look at external comparisons for support wizards + BSB that is just a BSB with some basic defence, they all clock out closer to the 400 rather than 500 mark.

    So basically, shaving some points off the commander base cost (while adding the same amount to MoCT cost) - lets say 30ish - plus splitting the MoSpellcrafting cost between mage cost and wiz master upgrade (about 10 less lets say) will bridge that 100 point gap to around 60 points; and at that stage despite the lower efficiency you may start considering two separate models as they can be customised to fit your needs better and have higher efficacy overall (or running a master with Meladys + Extra spell, in which case the two become tied pointwise).

    I disagree that MotC Commander costing is the only problem with Commander component viability.

    Simply put it’a the profile of a Commander. Using the MotC as an example; even a cheaper MotC Commander isn’t going to expedite a HBE list to a better external balance. The profile of a Commander model, in addition to the lack of enchantment allowance to offset the poor stats of the model is what makes the model pointless if a better Bsb option was offered. Ala a Prince or Master Mage Bsb.

    The model requires a bunker on foot, and offers no synergistic value as you’ve said. It effectively handicaps HBE lists into taking a bunker for a defenseless T3 3W model, while additionally eating up precious character points.

    While lowering its points would help, eliminating the opinion all together and allowing that aforementioned would save more than 70 points, but 400 altogether, and allow a HBE player to field the extra chaff, or shooting, or Prince unit needed to zone or control the movement phase.

    Fnarrr wrote:

    Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    I think whether you want to admit it or not you like the challenge of making a “bad army” playable.

    The ‘accolades’ (if there are any), the personal reward and understanding of nuance that other players don’t get/can’t see. However, that being said there are about 1/3 of complaints that are ludicrous, another third that are in the right ballpark, and a last third that are spot on. Whether it gets changed or not is up to time.
    Eh, you overestimate my perseverance; especially when it comes to the hobby side of things. I don't go for over-curve armies as its not a good long-term plan, but I don't actively go for the underdog either - especially when, as is the case now, there is painting involved.
    There are no 'accolades' associated with doing badly at events, regardless of army. There are way easier ways to have an ego trip if I need one :)

    Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    I don’t see why it couldn’t work on DL manifestations?
    My bad, didn't realise how they were worded. The interaction with R&F is an odd one, you still pick 1 model and take off its manifestation!

    Furion seems portray there’s accolades. Lol

    Hear you there. I haven’t moved on mainly because I’ve been stuck painting this army for years. I’m super slow.

    arwaker wrote:

    maybe MoCT would be better as a Honor for a mage, providing improved combat stats and such.

    Please stop that’s an awful idea.

    sparkytrypod wrote:

    cptcosmic wrote:

    sparkytrypod wrote:

    does it just need to be it's own character entry really?
    Then the real debate can start as to whether or not that entry can be the BSB!

    Commanders serve one main purpose really and that is being BSB, would anyone take them if they couldnt get honours or be a BSB? Again, would the solution be to have a standalone BSB character entry and scrap the commander?
    note that HBE players started to get rid of the commander in their setups altogether :) and how often have you seen a vanilla BSB?having so many tiers of characters behind a honour system results in poor value at some point unless each combination gets their own point entries which obviously wont happen unless you make a book just for the characters only. everything take into account that the stronger option is able to take it. the overpriced base chassis is only the tip of the iceberg.
    Thats what i am saying, honours/BSB upgrades just seems to be complicated character entries, it would possibly be cleaner if they were just stand alone characters.

    HBE honors were characters in prior games, and prior in .9 it was only after that HBE “were given” honors as a unique army system that simply moved the goal posts of complexity (picking up from the character a slot and placing it underneath the “honor slot.”)

    Is what it is at this point.

    sparkytrypod wrote:

    cptcosmic wrote:

    sparkytrypod wrote:

    Thats what i am saying, honours/BSB upgrades just seems to be complicated character entries, it would possibly be cleaner if they were just stand alone characters.
    thats alot of stand alone characters :)you wont need stand alone characters if you have only 2 base characters to balance against, fighter and mage, with their exclusive honours.
    so only 2 character profiles? unless the prince entry is priced downward significanly thats an expensive BSB purchase.
    Would you have honours modify the profiles? At that stage you might aswell have a dedicated character entry.

    Honors & characters, tbh i dont mind what way its done so long as it can be clean and priced correctly.

    A Prince or a Mage as the only option for a Bsb would be excellent.

    As the MotC cost on the Prince is cheaper and a better value, while the increase soft stats, and, mainly extra attack, and enchantment allowance allows the model to perform in a multi functional role the army so desperately needs in the current meta game.

    Outside of a QC Commander Bsb, the Commander offers no synergies otherwise, and is a liability to list building as you must place him in a bunker unit for added protection.
    I type on mobile so my spelling mistakes can hide that English is my native tongue. :write: :HE: :KoE:

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  • BondageGoatZombie wrote:

    Can there really be such different views depending on army bias?
    Oh yes.
    Sometimes you don't even need two players of different armies to get such drastically different views.
    And both of them attack the project for doing things obviously wrong... even when you point out that maybe some other people might have different views...
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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  • our 3 hard hitting lord :

    - on foot spear : best feared if it has a flaming banner/alchemy with him. if not, well dispell star align and the vamp is safe as there will almost certainly be a regrow on the unit during the VC turn.
    I think we lost the war (as we should i guess)

    - mounted (horse/griffon) wiht nova : this one can deal a bunch and probably one i would fear too.

    - mounted on drake with any kind of weapon : i do not know about this one but as stomp becomes a factor, i would say the vamp lord is in trouble.

    Not an expert on what the VC can come up with.

    I know the ghoul lord suffer against flaming (tadaaa) but other than that does not fear much (apart from charging griffon and the dragon but your champ is here). The lahmia court can bring down anything i guess. with ease (as long as, ofc, it reaches combat).

    i still think the VC lord win most of combat quite easily. Magic is a huge factor
  • You have to remember that those elven characters are also accompanied by elite elves soldiers. If they have GW and combine efford with a character, the chance to kill a vampire is pretty good.

    And for the Vampire player, losing their general, master and wizard in a single blow can easily mean losing the game due to their army dependence on the IP aura for march, vampire for doing actual damage and magic for healing their model (which pay an extra cost for this chance).

    And the Bias is pretty high.
    When a HbE player think about a Swordmaster, he sees only archers and catapults slaughtering a dozen of them per turn.
    When a VC player thinks about Swordmasters, he sees units of 40-50 undead models crumbling each turn of combat.
    Both things happen, but our brains have developed to focus two times more on what we lose more than what we gain. So the negative match-ups are easier to remember than the positive ones.
    So for the HbE player, the game is filled with arrows and stones while for the VC player its filled with Swordmasters.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Folomo ().

  • I’m not sure any HBE prince can 1 shot a VC vamp. “Lord” level anyway.
    That time I tried... I charged my prince on chariot with 2+,4+ blessed inscriptions into a 40 man skellie unit. I had also tried to charge flame wardens in to eat any challenges the first round.
    My opponent had a vamp with reapers harvest ( I think that’s the one )and destinys call.
    I managed with impact hits and all my attacks to do 1 wound. He managed 1 wounds in me.
    I lost combat and thankfully stuck. I only managed to kill him a couple rounds later from the flame wardens making it to combat and having a good magic phase.
    I can’t see a spear lord doing it either. Hitting on 3’ and wounding on 4’s assuming no spells and them having a a 4+ aegis with no divine attacks. Their toughness is too great. Add in the ability to heal next turn and no prince will kill a vamp out right. I’m sure it can happen 5-10% of the time from dice spikes but let’s be reasonable.
  • 1.34 Wounds on average, without buffs.

    - know they enemy / altered sight gets him to 1.66 wounds avg
    - awaken the beast gets him up to 1.8 wounds avg
    - altered sight & awaken is 2.2 wounds avg
    - Stars Align gets him to 2.6 wounds avg

    Its not far off from here to death on a dice spike. You threaten with Stars Align, drawing out all dice, and then get 1 or 2 buffs off.

    Its not a good situation, but its not good for the VC player either.
    Hristo Nikolov