No offense pls.
But i laughed.
But i laughed.
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Very much yes.Can there really be such different views depending on army bias?
The spear does ~1.3 wounds to a vampire with a 4++, and if the lord has armour of destiny I don't think the Vamp is that likely to one-shot him.
Haha, bless you for sticking your neck outThis is probably controversial but MoCT Honour is from my point of view causing more design problems than opportunities it is opening for diversified game play.
You are, of course, correct.
The problem isn't necessarily within MoCT itself, rather than the components it replaces. Currently, MoCT is more or less equivalent to the ability to get a BSB upgrade on a mage, SA-style.
If you elect not to do that, you are faced with two problems:
- 200 points commander BSB, with few useful upgrades available where he can pull his weight - the commander himself can either take Mithril and a GW for 70 pts and go be a frontliner - where his contribution is the same as about 2 swordmasters worth under 60 pts - or a bow, QC, and moonlight arrows for 60 pts, where his output is that of roughly that of 4 Queen's guard, with the QTF contributing about the same as 2 extra QG - i.e. 6 QG total for a worth of ~180.
TL;DR, the BSB upgrade ends up costing between 100 and 200 points depending on use; as the chasis is so very useless in doing anything else (a common problem throughout the game admittedly, but very pronounced here)
- Master of Spellcrafting is priced entirely on the mage initial cost, rather than split between it and the Wizard Master upgrade. This means while a wizard master is a fine deal, the additional mage you'd often need comes with a 15ish point tax. Not the biggest problem, but it adds to the one above.
MoCT BSB with a GW and Mithril (lets say in a frontliner context) clocks out at 405 points. He doesn't add a lot of damage, but he doesn't detract either and has just enough protection not to get his head kicked in by random nonsense. Alternatively, for +10 points more he can exchange the GW and armour for Elu's Heartwood and also shoot.
BSB with a GW and Mithril and a separate Adept clock in at 270 + 225 = 495 points. The setup performs pretty the same function but costs 90 points more; for -10 points the BSB can exchange the GW and Armour for QC and moonlight and also shoot. I'd argue QC and Elu are comparable.
This means MoCT saves you ~90 points for a combat character (not a single honour is effectively relevant for him, so the empty slot is irrelevant), and around ~70 when shooting support. If you consider MoCT has 3 spells and not 2, even if the 3rd is often 7th in list and therefore slight surplus, you are down around 100 points.
This could be seen as MoCT being 100 points too cheap, but when you look at external comparisons for support wizards + BSB that is just a BSB with some basic defence, they all clock out closer to the 400 rather than 500 mark.
So basically, shaving some points off the commander base cost (while adding the same amount to MoCT cost) - lets say 30ish - plus splitting the MoSpellcrafting cost between mage cost and wiz master upgrade (about 10 less lets say) will bridge that 100 point gap to around 60 points; and at that stage despite the lower efficiency you may start considering two separate models as they can be customised to fit your needs better and have higher efficacy overall (or running a master with Meladys + Extra spell, in which case the two become tied pointwise).
Eh, you overestimate my perseverance; especially when it comes to the hobby side of things. I don't go for over-curve armies as its not a good long-term plan, but I don't actively go for the underdog either - especially when, as is the case now, there is painting involved.I think whether you want to admit it or not you like the challenge of making a “bad army” playable.
The ‘accolades’ (if there are any), the personal reward and understanding of nuance that other players don’t get/can’t see. However, that being said there are about 1/3 of complaints that are ludicrous, another third that are in the right ballpark, and a last third that are spot on. Whether it gets changed or not is up to time.
There are no 'accolades' associated with doing badly at events, regardless of army. There are way easier ways to have an ego trip if I need one
My bad, didn't realise how they were worded. The interaction with R&F is an odd one, you still pick 1 model and take off its manifestation!I don’t see why it couldn’t work on DL manifestations?
maybe MoCT would be better as a Honor for a mage, providing improved combat stats and such.
Thats what i am saying, honours/ BSB upgrades just seems to be complicated character entries, it would possibly be cleaner if they were just stand alone characters.note that HBE players started to get rid of the commander in their setups altogether and how often have you seen a vanilla BSB?having so many tiers of characters behind a honour system results in poor value at some point unless each combination gets their own point entries which obviously wont happen unless you make a book just for the characters only. everything take into account that the stronger option is able to take it. the overpriced base chassis is only the tip of the iceberg.does it just need to be it's own character entry really?
Then the real debate can start as to whether or not that entry can be the BSB!
Commanders serve one main purpose really and that is being BSB, would anyone take them if they couldnt get honours or be a BSB? Again, would the solution be to have a standalone BSB character entry and scrap the commander?
so only 2 character profiles? unless the prince entry is priced downward significanly thats an expensive BSB purchase.thats alot of stand alone characters :)you wont need stand alone characters if you have only 2 base characters to balance against, fighter and mage, with their exclusive honours.Thats what i am saying, honours/BSB upgrades just seems to be complicated character entries, it would possibly be cleaner if they were just stand alone characters.
Would you have honours modify the profiles? At that stage you might aswell have a dedicated character entry.
Honors & characters, tbh i dont mind what way its done so long as it can be clean and priced correctly.
Can there really be such different views depending on army bias?
The post was edited 3 times, last by Folomo ().