Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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  • Folomo wrote:

    GW and naked is probably the most interesting option if they are cheap enough.
    Adding 6 S6 AP3 Agi 7 attacks that hit on 3+ to a unit for 260 points is a pretty interesting option.

    They could also be used as cheap chaff when needed.
    I don't feel like it follows any background ideas intended for those Highborn Elves as elite Highborns. And players talking about stuff like that just to get some kind of balance, should be the biggest argument for a full redesign.
  • arwaker wrote:

    Just to confirm what is the topic:

    Nearly all HE commanders have a honor. The wish is to reduce the basic price of commanders, and increase the price of all his available honors by the same value.

    Do I understand your wish correctly?
    Yes, but you may look to increase the cost only for the honours which actually get taken, so it increases internal balance. Even in that case you may still be looking to lower cost of HWotF, Fleet Officer and Queen’s Cavalier honours.

    Same applies for princes

    The rest, fully agree with @Fnarrr post above which ilustrates the embedded benefits of this approach very well ( post 17182 )
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else
  • I was thinking how HWotF can be OK as a design as long as its costed more reasonably (because it allows comboing with Essence of Mithril + BSB, or Ring + Spear) and realised I have some questions re: ring:

    1) I assume currently RoPT does not interact with DL Manifestations at all. I imagine that's intended

    2) RoPT doesn't interact with magical standards very well since standard bearers lost "front rank" and therefore have no reason to be in the front of a unit at all.
  • I think a naked commander with great weapon is a nice addendum for a spear block, because he provides some valuable S6 attacks to a unit that hardly can wound opponents with T5+. He has a cheapish block where shooting is less valuable against than into swordmasters. I don't think it makes much sense to put him into elite infantry, because those already have higher Str, and he pushes away one of those models from the frontline.
  • I've been looking at getting back into 6th edition and started making some lists, and while our units were pretty terrible in 6th (silver helms aside), good lord was character building fun. I really, really wish there were significantly more army book magic items instead of BRB ones, I know this has been discussed to death, but I'd urge anyone who didn't play 6th to have a look through an army book from that edition (pdf's are easy to find) and have a go at character building. So damn fun. I really hope we are able to make some changes to capture some of that feel.
  • arwaker wrote:

    I think a naked commander with great weapon is a nice addendum for a spear block, because he provides some valuable S6 attacks to a unit that hardly can wound opponents with T5+. He has a cheapish block where shooting is less valuable against than into swordmasters. I don't think it makes much sense to put him into elite infantry, because those already have higher Str, and he pushes away one of those models from the frontline.
    Do you really think that is worth an investment 160pts for 3W T3 6+AS and 3A S6? 8|

    Naked HbE commanders bring no specific role. Neither native unit support (hello EoS) nor combatwise/defensewise.

    Enemy can focus on killing him nearly as easy as wounding HbE RnF, or even easier with Navigator! Plus it grants enemy more points.

    Take a SA Vet for example. Both HbE & SA naked commanders with mundane Heavy Armour, Hand weapon & Shield ( we’re looking at naked cheap options):
    • Saurian Vet 195pts. Defense T5 2+AS parry (!!). Attack 4 S5 AP2 BtF attacks
    • HbE commander: 165pts. Defense T3 4+AS parry. Attack 3 S4 AP1 LR attacks (extra pip OS&DS)
    Similar can be seen with GW comparison

    For SA, needs to invest an incredible amount of attacks compared to what it would normally take to kill normal RnF saurians. Thus, provides a clear value in combat which may justify the investment and a secure BSB option

    Can’t say the same for unmounted HbE characters fue to poor defenses, pushing them towards ranged & support options


    If price adjustment is the only variable for characters, I would suggest the following to improve character internal balance:
    • Lower base cost of commander (130) & prince (230) and incorporate Heavy Armour to their base profile (instead of LA). As a result, decrease Dragonforged armour (DA) cost to 10pt.
    • Equipments: Prince Lance (-5pt), OotFH HA (-5pt), OotFH DA (-10pt).
    • Honours ( Increase cost ) : increase MoCT & Queens companion for same amount decreased in base profile (+20pt)
    • Honours ( decrease cost ) : decrease HWoF & FO by around -40pt each, RH by -20pt & increase chariot mount by 20pt. Set Queen Cavalier Honour cost to “free” and roll cost into Horse mount [80pts = Horse + Deva charge(+1A, Fear)]. Dragon & YD cost no added cost
    • Mounts: Dragon (-20pt), Ancient Dragon upgrade (-40pts), Young Dragon (-40pts), Griffon (-10pts), OotFH YD (-40pts), OotFH Dragon (-40pts), FO Sloop (-65pts), Horse & eagle (-10pts, for cavalier see above), ,
    • Magic items: Nova (70pts), Glittering Lacquer (30pts), Starmetal Shield (15pt), Demonhunter (10pt), Ring of Pearl Throne (55pt), Amethyst Crystal (35pt), Gleaming Robe (60pts), Protection of Dorac* (40pt Commander, 50pt Prince)


    * Setting Dorac @40pts for commander is would promote commander combat oriented builds: i.e. Hero Blade + Dorac / Dorac + BSB magic banner / etc.
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else

    The post was edited 7 times, last by Calcathin ().

  • Kopistar wrote:

    i honestly do not know.

    What usage would we do of a commander without honor bar beeing a bsb ?

    Flying griffin army ?
    Full cav hammer ?
    supporting a big spear unit ?
    Big eaglestar ?
    Reaver chariot spamm ?


    Theses are what i can quickly come with.
    or a second banner for unit as value choice at reasonable cost :)


    Calcathin wrote:

    Do you really think that is worth an investment 160pts for 3W T3 6+AS and 3A S6? 8|
    Naked HbE commanders bring no specific role. Neither native unit support (hello EoS) nor combatwise/defensewise.

    Enemy can focus on killing him nearly as easy as wounding HbE RnF, or even easier with Navigator! Plus it grants enemy more points.

    Take a SA Vet for example. Both HbE & SA naked commanders with mundane Heavy Armour, Hand weapon & Shield ( we’re looking at naked cheap options):
    • Saurian Vet 195pts. Defense T5 2+AS parry (!!). Attack 4 S5 AP2 BtF attacks
    • HbE commander: 165pts. Defense T3 4+AS parry. Attack 3 S4 AP1 LR attacks (extra pip OS&DS)
    Similar can be seen with GW comparison

    For SA, needs to invest an incredible amount of attacks compared to what it would normally take to kill normal RnF saurians. Thus, provides a clear value in combat which may justify the investment and a secure BSB option

    Can’t say the same for unmounted HbE characters fue to poor defenses, pushing them towards ranged & support options


    If price adjustment is the only variable for characters, I would suggest the following to improve character internal balance:
    • Lower base cost of commander (130) & prince (230) and incorporate Heavy Armour to their base profile (instead of LA). As a result, decrease Dragonforged armour (DA) cost to 10pt.
    • Equipments: Prince Lance (-5pt), OotFH HA (-5pt), OotFH DA (-10pt).
    • Honours ( Increase cost ) : increase MoCT & Queens companion for same amount decreased in base profile (+20pt)
    • Honours ( decrease cost ) : decrease HWoF & FO by around -40pt each, RH by -20pt & increase chariot mount by 20pt. Set Queen Cavalier Honour cost to “free” and roll cost into Horse mount [80pts = Horse + Deva charge(+1A, Fear)]. Dragon & YD cost no added cost
    • Mounts: Dragon (-20pt), Ancient Dragon upgrade (-40pts), Young Dragon (-40pts), Griffon (-10pts), OotFH YD (-40pts), OotFH Dragon (-40pts), FO Sloop (-65pts), Horse & eagle (-10pts, for cavalier see above), ,
    • Magic items: Nova (70pts), Glittering Lacquer (30pts), Starmetal Shield (15pt), Demonhunter (10pt), Ring of Pearl Throne (55pt), Amethyst Crystal (35pt), Gleaming Robe (60pts), Protection of Dorac* (40pt Commander, 50pt Prince)


    * Setting Dorac @40pts for commander is would promote commander combat oriented builds: i.e. Hero Blade + Dorac / Dorac + BSB magic banner / etc.
    hire this guy... oh wait. :D

    The post was edited 4 times, last by cptcosmic ().

  • This is probably controversial but MoCT Honour is from my point of view causing more design problems than opportunities it is opening for diversified game play.

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  • Giladis wrote:

    This is probably controversial but MoCT Honour is from my point of view causing more design problems than opportunities it is opening for diversified game play.
    But then you have quite peculiar view of HBE to be honest (at least judging from your posts here that I have seen)
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
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  • Adam wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    This is probably controversial but MoCT Honour is from my point of view causing more design problems than opportunities it is opening for diversified game play.
    But then you have quite peculiar view of HBE to be honest (at least judging from your posts here that I have seen)
    This has nothing to do my view of the HE but observing the army as blank mechanical components.

    Advisory Board

    Background Team

    Art Team Coordinator

    Team Croatia ETC 2019 Captain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ HEROES AND VILLEINS OF THE 9TH AGE
  • Giladis wrote:

    Adam wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    This is probably controversial but MoCT Honour is from my point of view causing more design problems than opportunities it is opening for diversified game play.
    But then you have quite peculiar view of HBE to be honest (at least judging from your posts here that I have seen)
    This has nothing to do my view of the HE but observing the army as blank mechanical components.
    Not trying to be offensive but how is MoCT (as in spell-sword) really different from let's say a vampire fighter/caster or a demon (fighter and caster too) design principle wise. While I get that him being a honor is quite tricky, the archetype of spell-sword or maybe a paladin is quite well explored in multiple games ranging from RPGs to RTS.

    While in it's current incarnation it certainly overshadows most other honors (mostly because they are quite crappy to be honest) I don't think that it is that tough to solve. Especially that he wasn't that popular when RH or HWoF were stronger.
    My gallery: Adam painting stuff (HbE, VC and lots of terrain)
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  • Fnarrr wrote:

    Vespacian wrote:

    @My_Kin this is exactly the kind of hyperbole this sub forum gets a bad name for. Dan already pointed out why WDG got an update at this stage, but it is very much a mixed bag as far as nerfs vs buffs. How about coming with, “what do ppl think of the WDG update?” first before we denounce the project.

    @Fnarrr is this the same Fnarr that was proud of trolling this sub forum for being a bunch of Whiney sore-losers a year ago? Didn’t take long to break you! ;)

    Joking aside, I am very eager to see the results of the HBE tourney data this year, anecdotally, it looks like at least prevalence is down, should be interesting. Having had a view of the internal process last year, I have a lot of faith that if the data is there, we will get the right treatment in the fall.
    My opinion hasn't changed much - I feel like 95% of the complaints are unreasonable ;)
    If I genuinely believed the army to be trash, I wouldn't be persevering with it or taking to ETC...
    I think whether you want to admit it or not you like the challenge of making a “bad army” playable.

    The ‘accolades’ (if there are any), the personal reward and understanding of nuance that other players don’t get/can’t see. However, that being said there are about 1/3 of complaints that are ludicrous, another third that are in the right ballpark, and a last third that are spot on. Whether it gets changed or not is up to time.


    Fnarrr wrote:

    I was thinking how HWotF can be OK as a design as long as its costed more reasonably (because it allows comboing with Essence of Mithril + BSB, or Ring + Spear) and realised I have some questions re: ring:

    1) I assume currently RoPT does not interact with DL Manifestations at all. I imagine that's intended

    2) RoPT doesn't interact with magical standards very well since standard bearers lost "front rank" and therefore have no reason to be in the front of a unit at all.

    I don’t see why it couldn’t work on DL manifestations?

    As it is written currently it does. And Demons take magical items/enchantments/ethereal embodiments as much as anyone else. The ring is based off the 7th Ed HE Null Stone. It currently is a cheaper, albeit crappier version of it ala lacking point and click (touching a model not a unit).

    I’d prefer to see it just drop a few more points. As it is I’ve taken it, and wish I took it to BeB in my list. It’s an excellent item, but it needs a high M platform with damage output to work

    Calcathin wrote:


    arwaker wrote:

    I think a naked commander with great weapon is a nice addendum for a spear block, because he provides some valuable S6 attacks to a unit that hardly can wound opponents with T5+. He has a cheapish block where shooting is less valuable against than into swordmasters. I don't think it makes much sense to put him into elite infantry, because those already have higher Str, and he pushes away one of those models from the frontline.
    Do you really think that is worth an investment 160pts for 3W T3 6+AS and 3A S6? 8|
    Naked HbE commanders bring no specific role. Neither native unit support (hello EoS) nor combatwise/defensewise.

    Enemy can focus on killing him nearly as easy as wounding HbE RnF, or even easier with Navigator! Plus it grants enemy more points.

    Take a SA Vet for example. Both HbE & SA naked commanders with mundane Heavy Armour, Hand weapon & Shield ( we’re looking at naked cheap options):
    • Saurian Vet 195pts. Defense T5 2+AS parry (!!). Attack 4 S5 AP2 BtF attacks
    • HbE commander: 165pts. Defense T3 4+AS parry. Attack 3 S4 AP1 LR attacks (extra pip OS&DS)
    Similar can be seen with GW comparison

    For SA, needs to invest an incredible amount of attacks compared to what it would normally take to kill normal RnF saurians. Thus, provides a clear value in combat which may justify the investment and a secure BSB option

    Can’t say the same for unmounted HbE characters fue to poor defenses, pushing them towards ranged & support options


    If price adjustment is the only variable for characters, I would suggest the following to improve character internal balance:
    • Lower base cost of commander (130) & prince (230) and incorporate Heavy Armour to their base profile (instead of LA). As a result, decrease Dragonforged armour (DA) cost to 10pt.
    • Equipments: Prince Lance (-5pt), OotFH HA (-5pt), OotFH DA (-10pt).
    • Honours ( Increase cost ) : increase MoCT & Queens companion for same amount decreased in base profile (+20pt)
    • Honours ( decrease cost ) : decrease HWoF & FO by around -40pt each, RH by -20pt & increase chariot mount by 20pt. Set Queen Cavalier Honour cost to “free” and roll cost into Horse mount [80pts = Horse + Deva charge(+1A, Fear)]. Dragon & YD cost no added cost
    • Mounts: Dragon (-20pt), Ancient Dragon upgrade (-40pts), Young Dragon (-40pts), Griffon (-10pts), OotFH YD (-40pts), OotFH Dragon (-40pts), FO Sloop (-65pts), Horse & eagle (-10pts, for cavalier see above), ,
    • Magic items: Nova (70pts), Glittering Lacquer (30pts), Starmetal Shield (15pt), Demonhunter (10pt), Ring of Pearl Throne (55pt), Amethyst Crystal (35pt), Gleaming Robe (60pts), Protection of Dorac* (40pt Commander, 50pt Prince)


    * Setting Dorac @40pts for commander is would promote commander combat oriented builds: i.e. Hero Blade + Dorac / Dorac + BSB magic banner / etc.

    I only disagree on the RHC and Helm. The Helm should be a Shield enchantment as well opening up the ability to get a +2 AS for hefty +50-55 point investment, but taking up two armor slots.

    Continuing; no one takes the Chariot as is, and frankly it could be cheaper. Making the foot variant cheaper isn’t going to make a player take that build unless they can:

    -Fit the boots while still having elite protection (minimum +2/++4AS).

    -More than 4 attacks

    -Immunity/mitigation to stomps

    -Or a synergistic bonus to RH (FiER, Rerolls to hit, charge, etc . . . )

    Giladis wrote:

    This is probably controversial but MoCT Honour is from my point of view causing more design problems than opportunities it is opening for diversified game play.

    How is it causing design issues that the book doesn’t internally cause itself?

    If there was anything that was competitive for a commander or Prince to take outside of MotC or QC then it would be selected. Currently there isn’t. This is mainly because the book being largely 5-15% over coated -as I’ve stated before 6 months back and got laughed at.

    MotC is not causing anything. It’s a reactionary choice from over priced, limited special ruled, and synergy based HBE unit choices, and, or enchantments.

    _________________

    Lastly, Commanders are worthless. I anecdotally don’t see them ever being a
    choice worth picking outside of your BSB -which has become more and more of a liability as of late.

    Furthermore, even if you cheapened them to Goblin pricing, it would be a tough choice as they take away from your character selection where the book does most of its heavy lifting.

    If I, as a HBE pilot, could free up points in my character slot by not taking a Commander Bsb and instead put the Bsb on a Mage or Prince I would in a heart beat.

    Commanders currently take up too many character points in my lists, and end up feeling like a useless tax as you have a model that may carry “a banner” sitting in a designated bunker while other armies actually get use from their piece.

    The only current viable option is QC or MotC, and the latter is cost inefficient when compared to a MotC Prince (rules, and suspect game wise).
    I type on mobile so my spelling mistakes can hide that English is my native tongue. :write: :HE: :KoE:

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  • trying again to think outside the box, could we get rid of honor and instead get a "longevity" factor ?

    Character section would need a complete overhaul but this would be the case anyway.

    This would difference us from VC (bloodline) and OK (big names).

    The idea is that for X years the characters gains X trait.

    100 year : +2 off deff
    300 yeae : lightning reflexes

    And so on...
  • Giladis wrote:

    This is probably controversial but MoCT Honour is from my point of view causing more design problems than opportunities it is opening for diversified game play.
    I agree, and I think this is due to two things. First, it is one of the few honours worth taking in the first place. Second, it has access to Sliver and Elu's.

    It might have to be a prince only honour, that can't have access to bows or spears (restricted to GW-wielding even).

    Also, I have said it before, I think Elu's should be removed and integrated into the QC honour some how.

    Another thing to perhaps note is that cavalry Commander/Princes are pretty much extinct...
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • Trains_get_robbed wrote:

    I only disagree on the RHC and Helm. The Helm should be a Shield enchantment as well opening up the ability to get a +2 AS for hefty +50-55 point investment, but taking up two armor slots.

    Continuing; no one takes the Chariot as is, and frankly it could be cheaper.
    Thank you.

    On the Helm, I agree with you and would be a really easily option to implement. Also a +1AS with additional +1AS vs magical. However the assumption on my post was “only price changes”.

    On the RH on LC. I’d be cautious: the model is already receiving a direct 35pt discount (20pt prince + 15pt Heavy armour). Plus it is a good carrier for RoPT and other items mentioned in my post to be discounted. As an example, for 635pts (aprox, quick calculation) you could field him with GW, Dragonforged Armour, Ghostly Guard, Diadem, RoPT and Cleansing light, if using my point costs. In my opinion this could be a competitive package for the price and would not need further price reductions
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else