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  • DanT wrote:

    Calcathin wrote:

    A) Personally, I don’t think a change to 9+ CV would have such a meaningful impact, specially since the spell is not repeatable.

    From 10+ to 9+ most times you’ll use same number of dice. Primarily, it would mitigate failed cast probability, which I think is good to reduce “bad luck” feeling and would be a welcome change. 2-dicing would be a bit more achievable but still quite a risk for a BoM master or a BoAP adept.

    So, overall, going from 10+ to 9+ is more about reliability and not peak power
    I disagree. 9+ required on the dice to 8+ required on the dice is the sweet spot in the probability distribution. It is one of the two most important single steps in casting value in the game. I talk about this a little bit in my tactics for beginners link in my signature.

    For Wiz master it would be from 8+ to 7+ which is not as relevant step. What you say is true for non-BoAP adepts only

    On mobile, replied only to the first point. Thanks for you PoV on the rest

    Fnarrr wrote:

    You can't drop it to 9+, because that's effectively an 8+, which then goes off on a 6+ with the BoAP from a support wizard (like the MoCT); and its absolutely ridiculous for a 2 dice effect despite the slight fail risk, especially when you consider that it ALSO heals a wound.

    Realistically, the spell has 3 different requirements of dice score based on who its coming from - currently needing 7, 8, or 9.
    Considering that the lowest one is the most uncommon scenario, but you also cannot have it drop to a 6, the CV can't really be going anywhere.

    Range can't go lower or the spell becomes too restrictive (like the druidism fortitude one currently is), it can't go higher or HbE start comfortably playing too spread out SE style rather than act as a battleline.

    So the only real variable that could be fiddled with is whether the spell adds 1 veil or 2. Not that I think a buff is necessary.
    Let’s think about it: if it was lowered to 9+, to cast it with MoCT on 2 dice you would need:

    1) pay 60pts for BoAP and giving up therefore on other items (i.e. Elu)

    2) Assume you have a 28% chance to miss the casting, which not only has the potential to compromise your magic with phase but also wasting the BoAP effect that turn. Plus, you’re forced to cast it as the first spell, which can affect your cast strategy

    Certainly not a “no-brainer” in my view, as in a large % of cases you’d still be casting it on 3dice, in which case the change just makes it more reliable to cast
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    (B) If it were removed, HBE players would be disappointed in comparison by whatever it were replaced with.
    I would be disappointed by any other combat Hereditary, but its worth noting that given no other changes I think would take the SA spell over ours - the MoCT is geared towards combat buffs, and Cosmo and Div have a slight slant that way as well (especially considering Drain Magic comes with Asfad). The only time you may really want a combat Hereditary is with pyro.
    In FAB there should be other options available that could be looked at i.e. wizard conclaves, Frosty wizard with Cosmo Ice & Fire or access to some Divination, repurpose a magic item into a boundspell projectile, etc

    Making the Hereditary into a projectile might push the army further into ranged identity territory and I think current design highlights well the protectiveness aspect of it.
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else
  • There are a couple things worth noting when considering those details:

    - On the MoCT, magic upgrades are easier to handle and use than the bow - you can still march is the big one, and don't have to consider your facing as much is the other one (there's a third one where magic is still usable in CC, but considering we are talking about naked BSBs here that's moot).

    - The standard "acceptable" chances of spell failure are about 16.5% * , so while the 28% is much worse, its misleading to quote it on its own compared to a 0%. You don't want it happening, but it still works out fine in 3 out of 4 cases, and is overwhelming for the dice invested in those**, which leads us to the next point

    - you can fit BoaP (60) and the scepter of power (40) on the MoCT. Its not over-investing in this specific combo, as Lash and Raven's Wing also go off on a 6+ on two dice, plus the scepter can be used on dispells as well.




    * 16.2% for 3 dice (8+ needed) and 16.7% for 2 dice (5+ needed). Equivalent for 1 dice is 2+ at 16.6% (which is why 1 dicing is generally a no-no) while for 4 dice its 11 at 15.9%

    ** this wouldn't be the only example in the game for bad interactions and CVs - the SA shamanism skink priest throwing out totems on 3 dice should also go die in a fire; but we shouldn't be adding to these issues.
    Hristo Nikolov
  • Calcathin wrote:

    Fnarrr wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    (B) If it were removed, HBE players would be disappointed in comparison by whatever it were replaced with.
    I would be disappointed by any other combat Hereditary, but its worth noting that given no other changes I think would take the SA spell over ours - the MoCT is geared towards combat buffs, and Cosmo and Div have a slight slant that way as well (especially considering Drain Magic comes with Asfad). The only time you may really want a combat Hereditary is with pyro.
    In FAB there should be other options available that could be looked at i.e. wizard conclaves, Frosty wizard with Cosmo Ice & Fire or access to some Divination, repurpose a magic item into a boundspell projectile, etc
    Making the Hereditary into a projectile might push the army further into ranged identity territory and I think current design highlights well the protectiveness aspect of it.
    Hence I said "given no other changes".

    Running a Master + Adept between Pyro / Cosmo / Div can give you a healthy 3-3 ranged-combat balance in a few different configurations regardless of what the H is, but the MoCT comes with a 1-2 ranged-combat balance so if your master only really has 1 ranged spell you are happy with (which is often the case with Cosmo and Div) you are then lacking tools as you end up with a 2-5 balance (generally then reconfigured to have some of the combat buffs swapped into toolbox spells that are neither).

    This is a non-existent problem from a FAB perspective.
    Hristo Nikolov
  • @Fnarrr
    on MoCT with BoAP topic: where i’m getting at is that you need to do further investments which are not black&white. Otherwise it is very unlikely you’ll risk 2-dice in an important phase.

    In that example you gave, you’d be investing 100pts in order to take advantage of this -1CV. So, not free at all, and debatable on whether it’s worth it over other options. In my view, that is a good outcome

    On Ranged vs combat spells balance topix: if hereditary was a ranged spell it would make MoCT even better/more versatile than it is now. I don’t think that’d be good for internal balance. Instead, option for a Pathmaster item for adepts / ranged boundspell items / wizard conclave with ranged damage would be a better approach since it would give that option to other entries in the book
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else
  • Fnarrr wrote:



    Evaenarion wrote:

    Naked cosmo is wasted hbe potential. Double strength bonus (with moct) is a trap.
    That's interesting, I would have said naked cosmo + MoCT is the optimal magic setup for HbE - its just difficult to learn to leverage its ranged pressure properly. Its what I'm looking to learn later half of this year.
    the problem lies with the cosmo magic itself as it is too "allrounder" and realistically, the only advantage of this for us is the double strength ("combo" wise).
    Whereas div or pyro asfad is a real powerhouse and very dangerous on his own. The investment is bigger of course. Then again, magic, and supremacy in it, is paramount.
  • Calcathin wrote:

    On Ranged vs combat spells balance topix: if hereditary was a ranged spell it would make MoCT even better/more versatile than it is now. I don’t think that’d be good for internal balance. Instead, option for a Pathmaster item for adepts / ranged boundspell items / wizard conclave with ranged damage would be a better approach since it would give that option to other entries in the book
    You can offer whatever carrots you like elsewhere in the book, but they are irrelevant in the situation where you take MoCT because there is almost nothing else sensible to do with your BSB Commander. Its currently nearly completely irrelevant that we don't have wizard conclaves for example, because they won't be a good pick if they are even remotely reasonably costed.

    Its not "MoCT vs <alternative>"
    Its "MoCT + <whatever you need/like> vs <alternative> + <whatever your BSB can do that's not MoCT>"
    Hristo Nikolov
  • Evaenarion wrote:

    the problem lies with the cosmo magic itself as it is too "allrounder" and realistically, the only advantage of this for us is the double strength ("combo" wise).
    Whereas div or pyro asfad is a real powerhouse and very dangerous on his own. The investment is bigger of course. Then again, magic, and supremacy in it, is paramount.
    The double strength is incredible, though.
    The other "combo" is the double heals (so its good for a combo when running a dragon too).

    Doube str + hereditary frankly has your combat buffs covered, but just in case you also get double 5++ aegis/fort if you are so inclined.

    The problem is purely at range, where despite having a selection of 4 spells, 3 of them are kinda iffy:

    Ice and Fire (yay!)
    Lash (yay, but situational)
    Divergence hex (highly situational)
    Touch the Heart (highly situational)

    I think if you can get the handle of using those 4 to apply a good amount of ranged pressure, the returns are great.
    Hristo Nikolov
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    Calcathin wrote:

    On Ranged vs combat spells balance topix: if hereditary was a ranged spell it would make MoCT even better/more versatile than it is now. I don’t think that’d be good for internal balance. Instead, option for a Pathmaster item for adepts / ranged boundspell items / wizard conclave with ranged damage would be a better approach since it would give that option to other entries in the book
    You can offer whatever carrots you like elsewhere in the book, but they are irrelevant in the situation where you take MoCT because there is almost nothing else sensible to do with your BSB Commander. Its currently nearly completely irrelevant that we don't have wizard conclaves for example, because they won't be a good pick if they are even remotely reasonably costed.
    Its not "MoCT vs <alternative>"
    Its "MoCT + <whatever you need/like> vs <alternative> + <whatever your BSB can do that's not MoCT>"
    In that sense, yes I agree the other commander options in the book are not comparable (bar QC in certain lists) based on current designs & point costs.

    I’d like FAB book to explore things that didn’t force every list to need a commander BSB. Things like Martial discipline including panics and certain Princes being able to take a BSB upgrade ( only honourless? or tied to certain honours (Fleet officer/Queen’s Cavalier)? ). Then it would be less inconvenient that there were only a couple of preferred BSB-commander builds, since there would also be the option to go commander-less
    Always a Highborn Elf, here or somewhere else

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Calcathin ().

  • I would be sad if we lost our Heredetary. I think its a really cool and creative Spell. I wouldn't mind if it generated 2 vt, but I would be scared of it getting nerfed again.

    @Fnarrr Rather than an aggressive Heredetary, what about a mage-only Ring of Fury (Artifact-Bound Spell)?

    @Calcathin Becalming being accessible to core seems innocent enough at first (and even encourage more msu speciale units). My fear would be that every list would run a becalming mage bunker in their core allowance.
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    And yet you keep moaning about the fragility of the army...
    I think you have me confused with someone else :)
    Did you not say you are actively making your list worse but easier to play because the fragility of elves makes mistakes/dice spikes too costly?
    Regardless, I don't think the SA hereditary would actually solve any problems for you, and it would leave your toolbox substantially poorer.

    Calcathin wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    Calcathin wrote:

    A) Personally, I don’t think a change to 9+ CV would have such a meaningful impact, specially since the spell is not repeatable.

    From 10+ to 9+ most times you’ll use same number of dice. Primarily, it would mitigate failed cast probability, which I think is good to reduce “bad luck” feeling and would be a welcome change. 2-dicing would be a bit more achievable but still quite a risk for a BoM master or a BoAP adept.

    So, overall, going from 10+ to 9+ is more about reliability and not peak power
    I disagree. 9+ required on the dice to 8+ required on the dice is the sweet spot in the probability distribution. It is one of the two most important single steps in casting value in the game. I talk about this a little bit in my tactics for beginners link in my signature.

    For Wiz master it would be from 8+ to 7+ which is not as relevant step. What you say is true for non-BoAP adepts only


    Yes, exactly. This is why the hereditary is fine in my view. Not over the top and not underwhelming.
    If the CV was one higher, I would be arguing that it should be one lower (i.e. the current value), based on exactly the same argument and a elucidation of the possible magic setups available to a HBE player.
    Now, one might argue that it is poor design that a hereditary spell pushes the player towards certain magic setups.
    I think that argument is not without merit, but I also think the current hereditary is fluffy, appropriate and costed correctly.
    This is another example of the problem that there are rarely enough levers available to designers to control all of the possible outcomes.


    AlexCat wrote:

    DanT wrote:

    This discussion makes me giggle.

    For my part, I think it is one of, if not the most powerful hereditary spell. Both raw power and flexibility.
    Looks in the direction of both undead armies. Start giggling uncontrollably [i]himself . [/i]
    Lol.
    I did say one of, not undoubtedly the best.
    Also with raw power, I was referring to a single instance.
    And HBE doesn't have built in disadvantages because of the hereditary, nor does it require the hereditary to function in the same way as these armies.
    But yes, of course an army built around and defined by the existence of its hereditary spell, one which can be cast multiple times per phase, might have a hereditary spell whose total impact is higher... imagine that ;)

    This is definitely beneath your usual level of argumentation :P
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by DanT ().

  • I just played in an 86 man GT this weekend. Probably the worst I’ve done at this event in the fours years I’ve attended. Dice spikes and all that with some piss poor luck. There will be two YouTube reports of my games for two players and I think you might hear some of that. Or you could look at my battle log “ road to buckeye battles” on this forum.
    Anyway, to the point. I have been some1 who feels our hereditary spell was underwhelming. I feel it could use some fine tuning, maybe not a cast reduction but perhaps generating 2 veil tokens or increase the range.
    That being said, I will from here on out be taking this spell every game. While not game breaking it is strong.
    A couple games I didn’t take it in favor of damage or combat buffs. The games I did take it...
    Vs OnG it saves my champ from an orc warlord in a challenge. Aegis saves me after I used the token. Oaken next round with awaken res’d my champ and are the challenge a second time. Hereditary saved my BsB from max overkill to the warlord big I still won combat. In reality I should have broken him with combat res 2 rounds back to back but that’s another story of my poor luck and my opponents luck to roll a 5 and 6 leadership check when I roll triple 6’s for a leadership 9 rally... more on that in my battle log.
    Hereditary was a life saver.
    Vs WDG it did similar with flame wardens against a doom lord bus. He used a veil token to gain Devine attacks and I had hereditary up so I saved 4 wounds and managed to save the other on my rerollable aegis save.
    Was refreshing to play the spell right. Now if I could get my dice to average maybe I’d do better. Lol
  • I had 16 quotes from people. So instead of quoting all 16 I will instead just TLDR my thoughts of the Hereditary Spell:

    -While I find myself taking it every game with a Pyromancy Master I don’t think I would in a Divination setup where I have 3-4 combat buffs.

    -Ultimately I think it could use a slight buff. The casting value is fine, but unless you’re taking Banner of Becalming in your list the one veil token is not enough to justify casting it mid rounds (2-5) in games as the guarantee veil token generation is not enough.

    -It is not the most powerful Hereditary spell in the game. It’s not even top 3. It’s roughly 4-5 spot (I’d personally say 5).

    -The flexibility is what makes this spell worth casting.

    -Routes to help make it a mainstay in HBE list is down to the narrow scope of unit choices that are externally competitive, and it’s magic dice allotment. I would recommend increasing external balance competitiveness of the spell by either helping the popular choices in the book that are currently competitive, or increasing the ROI in some form factor by:

    -Allowing the tokens to be used after Aegis/Fortitude Saves like prior -keeping characters or FW alive for longer.

    -Increasing the tokens back to 2.

    -Increasing the wounds saved per token of infantry to 3.
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  • I don't know if I understood correctly,
    you would like to put the spell as it was before the terrible nerve of February 2018 but more powerful for the infantry?

    I remember the nerve that we suffered last year, you're not afraid that it starts again?

    For my part I like this spell, he has often helped me. Sometimes useful sometimes no, it depends on so many things.
    Putting it back to the January 2018 level would be a good thing because it did not deserve such nerf.
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  • Trains_Get_Robbed wrote:

    -Ultimately I think it could use a slight buff. The casting value is fine, but unless you’re taking Banner of Becalming in your list the one veil token is not enough to justify casting it mid rounds (2-5) in games as the guarantee veil token generation is not enough.

    -Increasing the tokens generated back to 2.
    This exactly. The spell only is powerful for me because of the banner combo. Otherwise I wouldnt take the spell (but would still take the banner). Because my list has space for the banner, the hereditary spell is a nice combo which I use regularly.

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