Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

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  • And that very hybris could be a reason for other faction's communities not to trust the opinion of one single dedicated player. No offense, probably you're the best player out there and have more expertise than anyone else. I dunno. However, it doesn't matter if we not treat all factions the same. Everywhere someone should be the best.

    Why not join RT? They will certainly welcome such expertise. I am sure that your feedback about UD and all other factions will be a large help to convince their community about some painful decisions.
  • Nothing has been confirmed as yet for the roll out for the points changes. As soon as we get the green light ( an learn of it) though, we will let you know.

    Otherwise, do we have any data minds in the throne room? We need a couple of people to assist with the finalisation of the tournament data points that will inform the statistical analysis for the points update and any help would be much appreciated. Link below for details

    the-ninth-age.com/community/in…ostID=1258731#post1258731
    Once a Highborn, always a Highborn.
  • Furion wrote:

    Also any experts claiming UD need only buffs is proving hinself not to be an expert. Catch 22 at its finest.

    That was not my argument :)

    It is equally true that just like all of T9As balance issues could be solved by buffs - they could could also be solved by nerfs.

    There are perfect equilibriums both above and below the powerlevel of August 2019.
    Question is what you prefer.

    Do you fear upscale of power more than you despise the downscale of your own army?
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • arwaker wrote:

    Why not join RT? They will certainly welcome such expertise. I am sure that your feedback about UD and all other factions will be a large help to convince their community about some painful decisions.
    RT is more than full. Same with ADTeams.

    But I heard data minds need help. ....one could "cook the books" if they really want to invoke some change, lol. ...Not like anyone is going to volunteer to go recompile the data.
  • Scrub wrote:

    I like how people are using their jobs to explain their methological concept they're using for 9th age.
    I'm a teacher for example so I'll just let you figure out all this stuff by yourself and rate the result. :D
    As a pure mathematician I just wonder what in hell data points have to do with mathematics...
    xkcd.com/435/ (Read thee tooltip on the image... or better don't! ;) )

    On the other hand I am not a scientist any longer, but a custom engineer and consultant. And as far as I can tell, management decisions on technical details are usually made in Furion's way but with faaaar less expertice. Data is often only taken in consideration if it supports decisions that have already been made elsewhere.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by teclis2000 ().

  • Mandavar wrote:

    If there is a desire to prevent 4-5 Griffon lists this should be achived with army wide limits and not with artificially high points which only result that not a single Griffon will be taken.
    fielding 4 griffons can be done already :P

    Arthur wrote:

    Can you imagine the eternity of whining that would ensue if we could field 4 units of 5 Eagles? :D I wouldn't leave home without!
    yeah, on paper it sounds good at first, right?

    then on the table you begin to realize they are only two attacks per 50x50mm, always counts as 0 ranks, no scoring and no command group, in short eagle-poop :D

    Furion wrote:

    Also any experts claiming UD need only buffs is proving hinself not to be an expert.
    was about to say that aswell :rolleyes:

    arwaker wrote:

    if we not treat all factions the same.
    gist is, you cant treat all factions the same because they are not on the same power level
  • Conversation moved on a lot while I was busy with other things.
    I doubt I will have time to go back and address details in every response to me, but I will do so if I get time.

    Some things for those proposing alternatives to think about:
    (A) Main limiting factor for project is volunteer time; any solution must be practicable.
    (B) The project does consult experts, it just also looks at tournament data. And does community internal balance surveys for the next update too by the looks of it.
    (C) No-one has yet proposed a solution for what to do when experts disagree in an expert only system.
    (D) Establishing the issues, and acting on them, are two different things. One could agree entirely with the implications from the data and still disagree with the resulting points changes. The latter requires specification of overall goals/strategy, which is a separate discussion to "what is the state of play right now".
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
  • Herminard wrote:

    Furion wrote:

    Also any experts claiming UD need only buffs is proving hinself not to be an expert. Catch 22 at its finest.
    That was not my argument :)

    It is equally true that just like all of T9As balance issues could be solved by buffs - they could could also be solved by nerfs.

    There are perfect equilibriums both above and below the powerlevel of August 2019.
    Question is what you prefer.

    Do you fear upscale of power more than you despise the downscale of your own army?
    This is not looking at a matter correctly, my dear viking.
    We are reaching some arbitral level of balance now. It is way easier to navigate around that optimum with both + and - point changes, then to take anyone up with + changes.

    Although the result may be the same, the one will take much quicked time to obtain, since the variation from the desired goal is lower - therefore it is easier to aim.
    my ETC 2019 roster
    750 - High Prince on Dragon, Dragon, Great Weapon, Obsidian Rock
    565 - Mage: Asfad Scholar, Master, Divination, Book of Meladys,
    485 - High Prince: Queen's Companion, General, Spear, Sliver of the Blazing Dawn, Destiny's Call, Longbow, Moonlight Arrows
    280 - 20x Citizen Spears, MC
    190 - 5x Elein Reavers, Bows
    662 - 27x Sea Guard, MSC, Banner of Speed
    360 - 5x Knights of Ryma, M
    180 - 3x1 Sea Guard Reaper
    663 - 21x Lion Guard, MSC, Banner of Becalming
    4500
  • Herminard wrote:

    That is a misrepresentation of his argument @Fnarrr. Remember I showed you this?


    Refute _his_ central point.

    ....

    Fnarrr wrote:

    The issue with forum feedback is known: its incredibly biased. Its also out of proportion, as the scale of a problem itself and the scale of how much whinging about it is present are two different things that have a very vague relationship.
    The same issue is present in EE, hopefully to a lesser extent

    Removing the only measure which is actually unbiased strikes me as a really bad move

    ^ Right there.

    Data is unreliable, but at least it has no bias / agenda.
    People are both unreliable and have bias / agendas.


    We've had updates driven by qualitative information so far, they've been....fine (people saying everything has been omfgwtf bad are exaggerating - the game state is largely in a good place, so clearly all the work carried out so far hasn't been awful) but they could be better.

    We've not had a real data-driven update so far.

    Give it a damn chance
  • Furion wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    Furion wrote:

    Also any experts claiming UD need only buffs is proving hinself not to be an expert. Catch 22 at its finest.
    That was not my argument :)
    It is equally true that just like all of T9As balance issues could be solved by buffs - they could could also be solved by nerfs.

    There are perfect equilibriums both above and below the powerlevel of August 2019.
    Question is what you prefer.

    Do you fear upscale of power more than you despise the downscale of your own army?
    This is not looking at a matter correctly, my dear viking.We are reaching some arbitral level of balance now. It is way easier to navigate around that optimum with both + and - point changes, then to take anyone up with + changes.

    Although the result may be the same, the one will take much quicked time to obtain, since the variation from the desired goal is lower - therefore it is easier to aim.

    That is an argument of lazy: "We destroy your builds because we dont care to put in the effort to fix units that are not functioning".


    Fnarrr wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    That is a misrepresentation of his argument @Fnarrr. Remember I showed you this?


    Refute _his_ central point.

    ....

    Fnarrr wrote:

    The issue with forum feedback is known: its incredibly biased. Its also out of proportion, as the scale of a problem itself and the scale of how much whinging about it is present are two different things that have a very vague relationship.
    The same issue is present in EE, hopefully to a lesser extent

    Removing the only measure which is actually unbiased strikes me as a really bad move
    ^ Right there.

    Data is unreliable, but at least it has no bias / agenda.
    People are both unreliable and have bias / agendas.


    We've had updates driven by qualitative information so far, they've been....fine (people saying everything has been omfgwtf bad are exaggerating - the game state is largely in a good place, so clearly all the work carried out so far hasn't been awful) but they could be better.

    We've not had a real data-driven update so far.

    Give it a damn chance

    I dont really mind anchoring descisions in data, but I dont see how data can have no bias.

    I also dont mind whatever methodology is being used, as long as there are _more_ builds becoming available to the metagame than the number of builds that are being made obsolete.

    How about we give that a chance?
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    We've had updates driven by qualitative information so far, they've been....fine (..) but they could be better.

    We've not had a real data-driven update so far.

    Give it a damn chance
    I wonder though how a data based approach would deal with non-entries, e.g. AB entries that are never/hardly ever taken and thus have no corresponding data to base adjustments on?
    + :WDG_bw: :HE: :SA: + This forum need polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Teowulff wrote:

    I wonder though how a data based approach would deal with non-entries, e.g. AB entries that are never/hardly ever taken and thus have no corresponding data to base adjustments on?
    Usage in lists is explicitly one of the uses of the data.

    Why do you think Just_flo (and others) keep asking for help with huge amounts of list entry etc?
    It is precisely so that the internal balance of entries like these can be evaluated.
    Same for the internal balance surveys that the project has requested you all fill in.
    Being supportive & giving useful criticism aren't mutually exclusive.
    Are you supportive of the project? Do your posts reflect that?

    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE