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  • cptcosmic wrote:

    why is a MotCT nerf even talked about before the "bottom tier" elements of the army is brought to a power level that is above "bottom tier"? HBE are bottom tier with the current MotCTs after all :rolleyes:

    the logic of certain specialists never ceases to amaze me :popcorn:
    Because a MoCT character is a combination of Commander of MoCT upgrade.
    If MoCT character = fine (quoting Furion's video), but we want the commander to drop (cos its trash) then MoCT has to go up.
  • @cptcosmic it's called managing expectations, with such wide ranging points changes across all books to happen in the near future, there is going to be changes in our book to the top performers to ensure that all events out, not just boosts us to the top.

    Collective thinking, not singular thinking will be applied (and rightly so).

    The project has been accused of being opaque in the past, I'm mitigating this by being transparent, but that doesn't mean that I'm only going to be transparent about the good.

    @Henrypmiller myself and @Vespacian will distil the essence of the video for you when we get a chance, currently going to be light on the ground for my part due to a bereavement in the family. Some very good points, raised in the furion fashion but good nevertheless
    Once a Highborn, always a Highborn.
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    If MoCT character = fine (quoting Furion's video), but we want the commander to drop (cos its trash) then MoCT has to go up.
    if the MotCT is fine with the current cost then the logical conclusion is to raise the price? this does not make much sense, dont you think? :D

    (well unless you meant to raise the upgrade cost the same amount the commander gets cheaper, which is a different story)
  • Masamune88 wrote:





    @Henrypmiller myself and @Vespacian will distil the essence of the video for you when we get a chance, currently going to be light on the ground for my part due to a bereavement in the family. Some very good points, raised in the furion fashion but good nevertheless
    If you need a second pair of eyes to help out just drop me a PM.

    Background Team

    9th Scroll Editor

    Ammertime Podcast Host
    soundcloud.com/ammertime-podcast
    Team Ireland ETC 2019 :HE:
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    cptcosmic wrote:

    why is a MotCT nerf even talked about before the "bottom tier" elements of the army is brought to a power level that is above "bottom tier"? HBE are bottom tier with the current MotCTs after all :rolleyes:

    the logic of certain specialists never ceases to amaze me :popcorn:
    Because a MoCT character is a combination of Commander of MoCT upgrade.If MoCT character = fine (quoting Furion's video), but we want the commander to drop (cos its trash) then MoCT has to go up.
    Using the theory; If it works, then it must be OP. And therefor has to be punished! Sigh....another one bites the dust.
    Failure is not an option.
  • Perhaps it might be more constructive to talk about what we wish/like/prefer to be buffed rather than going on endlessly about an MoCT BSB nerf?

    I imagine that some Honours are going to receive discounts (if only to encourage people to try them again even if they end up not working). The only honours played right now are MoCT, Companion and Asfad (and Fiery Heart sometimes).

    Do you guys think a discount would make Royal Huntsman more attractive, perhaps paired with a base price discount for Prince/Commander? Lion Chariot Commander/Prince could be back?

    I think HWotF is a hot mess but is there a price anybody would take it?

    Amethyst Crystal seems rather overpriced when Crystal Ball exists but if discounted could be attractive, what would be a fair price?

    Navigator's Banner is not seen often anymore, could it be discounted?

    Apologies if this has been discussed to death already :P
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!
  • Nah, lets quote each other without understanding the previous post, its so much better. How else can we get this to 1000 pages?


    elendor_f wrote:

    attractive

    elendor_f wrote:

    would take it

    elendor_f wrote:

    endlessly


    Heard it here first folks, elendor thinks Amethyst Crystal is OP
  • To Fnarr's credit this thread has walked in the same circles multiple times. Such as:

    MotCT BSB

    Data Driven approaches
    HBE learning curve
    (Fill in the blank) Bias
    Brainstorm of buffs (as in ideas clashing and storming against eachother) with the obligatory reminder of only points adjustments.
    HBE are up, fine, and op all at the same time.
    Nerfing Sliver so its an over priced Hero's Heart.

    Lets argue about whether hbe codex is fine despite being at the bottom of rankings. I am sure we can say something constructive, just make sure no one reads eachother post.
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • @Henrypmiller
    @Vespacian
    @Masamune88

    Here is my script from the video.

    Before devouring it, please consider that:

    1. The focus of changes was on build options, not power level.
    2. The changes are the minimum to have any effect on better internal balance.
    3. If you want HE to be externaly better, my gut feeling is to provide additional 3% discount on army.
    4. I limited scope of changes to point changes only. A better book can be obtained if patch allows for some finagling with categories / rules.

    I don't know how points 1-3 fall in line with what current balance makers have in mind.
    If p. 4 is on the table, I can give my suggestions aswell.


    --------------



    Slide2.jpg


    This table will be the focus for today. I will go through it entry by entry. Keep in mind that what I list in "current cost" column is an approximation for a viable build - for example, consider musicians. on 5 Queen's Guard don't really need a musician, while on 5 Knights of Ryma is more or less a must have. Also, what I write in "balance suggestion" column reffers to both initial and cost and additional models cost.

    With green I have marked units that often see play in current state of the book. As you can see there is an alarming prevalence of non-green entries, so there is much work ahead of us.

    Let's go through this list section by section. Also, within sections, I will focus on group of units that sort of fit in "one bag" of choices. It is important to have the units within "one bag" of possible choices on equal power level or cost level - this way we will have richer builds.

    While analysing the balance issue, it is useful to make some comparisons to other units in other armies. I understand that this is not an approach that should be applied directly, however I believe there is some information in such comparisons which can be extracted and sensibly used.

    Lastly, since the coming update will make ammendments to points only, I have reduced my balance suggestions to work within those constrains. So I propose costs change only.

    CORE UNITS

    There are 3 balance issues in core section.

    The first balance equation is between Spears, Archers and Sea Guard. Spears and Sea Guards see play, while Archers are a little bit underrepresented. Upon little investigation this comes as little surprise. Big archer unit with queen's companion herocan pump up 30 s3 ap0 shots, while SE pump 30 s3 ap1 shots. Also, the build-in quick to fire means that small units of archers see more play in Sylvan Elves than in Highborn Elves. The difference of Ap1 and S4 on close range is a massive difference in power level. It is true that HBE can also complement their shooting with Bolt Thrower, Pyromancy magic and Sky Sloops, so given proper target selection the differences fades a little. Still, my point stands - spears and sea guards don't break the game and there are not enough archers present - introduce 1 point drop and see what happens.

    Second balance equation is Highborn Lancers. This is a unit that currently is the worst heavy cavaly in the game. Now you can have 20 spearmen for cost of 5 highborn lancers. That's 20 attacks vs 5. That's 20 bodies on steadfast and some static resolution vs nothing. Highborn Lancers can't hit hard, they have low survivability in their respective category (Empire Knights / Bretonnia knights do it way better in both considerations) This unit just needs a massive drop to ever see competitive play. Maybe if they are cheap enough then they can act as some sort of bus covering a prince, but HE characters are Resiliance 3 pusies who dish out 4 attacks anyway, so it's nothing that will break the game. Reduce cost by 10 points per model. There is a reason why they are not present in competitive lists.

    Third question is about Ellein Reavers. They see play because they are vanguarding light troops and this ability on its own is pretty good. But similiar choices in other armies are over 10% cheaper. I don't see any point in having Dark Riders and Ellein Reavers on different costs. It is pointless to discuss is Killer Instict better than Martial Discipline as this greatly depends on circumstances. Those two units, albeit in different armies, serve the exact same purpose, they are pawns with exactly the same roles, so I see no reason to have them on different costs.

    SPECIAL UNITS

    Again, first group is Lion Guard / Flame Wardens / Sword Masters. Lion Guard see play because they bring S6 for Highborn Elves which is a very limited resource for this army. This makes Sword Masters a little bit off when it comes to representation, because they fit badly in current army composition - spears and s3 shots and divination pretty much have the same spectrum of optimal targets as sword masters. In order to make them a little more intresting to take, I suggest a small nudge o 1 ppm decrease. Also it is important to not that while big units of White Lions can operate pretty much only with musician, the Swordmasters need some sort of magical standard to compensate for their worse damage output.

    When it comes to Flame Wardens, I believe this unit is too expensive since update when hereditary spell is applied before ward saves. This is a significant nerf for Flame Wardens and very bad cost-efficiency. I believe them to be the weakest of the trhee, they are present only in some sort of lists that rely on conserving points. I postulate a 2 ppm decrease to make them on par with Lion Guard and Sword Masters.

    Next up, Eagles. I don't know will we ever see big eagle units in play, but judging that the current cost of 135 pts for 2 eagles is not intresting enough to be taken literally ever, I think we neeed a significant drop on extra eagles. It's either this, or just remove the entry for extra eagles.

    Knights of Ryma. This is a unit that is quite prevalent when it comes to play. They have good threat range, they introduce gimmicks of Dragon Armor, they can dish out some attacks on the turn they charge. Having said all that: 5 Dread Knights cost almost a 100 pts less! Another example: 3 Sun Griffons with lances and musicians cost 15 points less - and that is a much more powerful unit, with stomp 9 s5 ap3 attack every turn and resiliance 4. Another example: 5 Warrior Knights with lances cost 50 points less, again with 1 better point of armor and 1 more resiliance... Yes, Knights of Ryma see play. But this is only because they can dish out some damage on long threat range, and HBE has almost no other units nor characters that can serve this role. I don't think that Knights of Ryma are stronger than the aforementioned unit by a 100, 50 or 15 points. I think the 3 ppm reduction is a bare minimum so we are all on the same page.

    Finally, we come to chariots. First of all, Reaver Chariot. I believe it will be very hard to find a place for it in HBE army - it dishes unreliable s5 hits, which first of all - HBE have plenty of that already, second - it is unreliable. The chariot is too much of a liability to take - it can either be killed easily with its 5+ save and 3 HP, and worst of all, it can roll 1 or 2 on impact hits, do 1 wound on opponent, easily lose the combat on the turn it charges and in that case your opponent makes a reform in your turn which in most cases is a game over in this game. This chariot just needs to be cheaper to compensate for that. The basic one and the extra ones should be cheaper by 10 ppm

    Lion Chariot. This model, in contrast to Reaver Chariot, has a potential to be taken as it has a role to serve. Dishing out 4s5 and 2s6 attacks in later turns of combat is formidable and it is something that HBE lack. Even Knights of Ryma deal very low damage in next rounds of combat. So why does this chariot not see play? The answer is simple, it's a combination of too low survivability and too high of a cost. Consider Dread Elves Raptor Chariot. It has 1 point of resiliance more, which is absolutely massive. It can still dish damage in alter rounds of combat. It has 4 shots which is of some utility. And most importantly, it can be buffed by Altar to have an extra dice for charge roll. 1 point of movement speed on chariot is good, but it's not a game breaker, since the opponent will position himself on a charge roll of 11 or 12 if he wants to bait a charge, so it is more of your opponent decision than yours on when will the chariot charge. Also, chariots are the units that charge in this game most often, due to very little loss when the charge is failed - moving 5 inches while your advance move is 7 or 8 is a negligible punishment.

    So as to balance suggestions - I don't think 30 points of a drop will make them on par with Raptor Chariots. Raptor Chariots will still be better. But, as said at the beginning of the video, I aim for smallest sensible point drops in order to make the army playable. Also, I believe the Raptor Chariots cost should go up by 10 or 15 points, so with this assumption in mind I think 30 points will make them a decent alternative for more aggressive rosters.


    QUEEN'S BOWS

    Let's consider big and small units of Queen's Guard. The problem with Queen's Guard is that they have a joined target range with core archers and sea guards. In short, they shoot at gortach with same efficiency and shoot at steam tanks with same inefficiency. Queen's Guard are even less resiliant to breath weapons and magic missles, and each body costs more ppm. Small units maybe have a little bit more allure, but it's a double edged sword, because you are more susceptible to panic checks which forces your positioning and on some scenarios (like capture the flag) you are better of with not having them in your roster. As far as I can understand the game, the Queen's Guard will see more play when someone decides that it is better to have Highborn Lancers in Core and Queen's Guard as firing unit rather than having Archers in Core and having Knights of Ryma as Cavalry. In order to obtain that, I believe that Queen's Guard a little bit too expensive, so I suggest a 2 ppm reduction.

    Next, the Grey Watchers. To be honest, This units design is so bizzare that I don't think they will ever see play. They would need some change to their silly rule, like maybe they can shoot into combat or something, but that's a discussion for another time. Right now, I don't think we can help this units with points, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. I suggest a 5ppm drop, which will make them roughly a cost of a small queen's guard unit. At least it's a move in the right direction...

    NAVAL ORDNANCE

    This is a short section to consider - Bolt Throwers are ok, Sky Sloops are too expensive for what they bring - with Warriors of the Gods there came shrines and 2d6 magic missles which Bolts defend better against due to greater range, and also if you lose a bolt thrower it's a 180 points shift, not a 265 points shift and as mentioned before due to positioning the survivability of the Sky Sloop is lower than Bolt Thrower's. When it comes to potential to deal Impact Hits, it's not that important because in that case you don't dish out your shots so it's a lost value, also it has the same problem as Reaver Chariot - impact hits on only S5 and no +1 to roll are to unreliable and reform or pursue in enemy turn can screw your game. Ask yourself, you see 3 Sun Griffons with banner on a flank charge. Do you really take it? Like really? If you do, then you must be this person who loses every 5th battle due to "extreme bad luck" and never gets to a top finish in tourney.

    To sum up: Sky Sloop need to be a little bit cheaper.

    ANCIENT ALLIES

    There are a few reasons why the fenixes are less present than they were. First of all, with introduction of Book of Arcane Mastery on adepts and Ice and Fire spell the fenixes have taken a hit. Next, the hereditary spells from Warriors of the Dark Gods and Daemon Legions have also pushed them back. With recent resurfaces of units like Dark Coaches and Raptor Chariots, Mad Gits and Cave Goblins, Blunderbuss blocks, the fire fenix utility is lesser than what it was before. I don't think it is currently in a place in which it can compete against those units, which also are a utility units.

    The frost fenix shares the same weaknesses as fire fenix, even more so due to lack of fireborn rule, has a special rule that is as bizzare as the rule for grey watchers and can't do flee which is a significant nerf... This is one of those units that was way to expensive since 3 years back. If anything, then the forst fenix maybe can serve a similiar role to Knights of Ryma - long threat range, dish out some damage. But in order to do so, it has to cost roughly the same... If with 375 pts it saw almost 0 play and sometimes people took 2 units of Knights of Ryma to fill the role of zoning oppoent out, I think it need a drop of about 50 points to be pickable instead of Knights of Ryma.

    As to warden's bond, the upgrade is nice, but is just plain too expensive to take. The 2s4 attacks don't make enough difference, it is rare that you need a march check because you don't want to charge with your combat monster so it's of limited usability, and best way to have your fenix be efficient is to not die at all, rather than taking the 3+ charity save.

    So to sum up, Fire Fenix down by 30, Frost Fenix down by 50, both upgrades down by 20.

    CHARACTERS ON FOOT.

    Vanilla Prince. Dread Prince starts with 240 with a significantly better special rule to combo up (rerolling 1 to wound makes any weapon upgrade he takes way more efficient) the Forest Prince from Sylvan Elves starts with 215 points with way better statline (additional armor piercing point, extra agility point) there is absolutely no reason that this prince should start with highest cost. As it comes to vanilla prince, the only possible build for him is to be the Sliver of the Blazing Dawn wielder, and 2 other princes would make for a significantly better carry had they had the option. It has been long proven that Sliver of the Blazing Dawn doesn't break the game, so in light of no possible sensible buffs for Vanilla Prince, his price has to get down, I recommend 15 pts for starters.

    Fleet Officer. Now please keep in mind that when making my suggestions on what drops to honors should be applied, I had in mind the 15 pts drop reduction for the Prince, so if you keep the Prince point cost the same, the honors should be another 15 pts less expensive.

    Ok, back to fleet officer on foot. Cover fire with Bow of Elu? What is that model supposed to do? Hmm... Maybe some Bow of Elu 2+ rerollable armor save model? maybe this has some sort of utility? I don't know, maybe, but definitely not for almost 500 points. The upgrade has to be significanly cheaper to even be considered. Start with 50 pts, think from there.

    High Warden. Again, hit with nerfhammer 3 times. The Favour of the Meladys is after ward saves, the model can't carry a shield, it has constant flaming attacks... ugh, I'm just not buying it. Take the honor down by 50 pts for starters, maybe with combination with magic items being cheaper this cowboy will see some play.

    Master of Canreig Tower and Asfad Scholar are possibly fine. They are very expensive but they provide a lot of play options, so at least in this balance change I wouldn't change them, I would wait until next balance iteration to see should any changes be made here. But probably they are ok, although I don't like how Asfad Scholar is practically an option for Divination only, as for Cosmology and Pyromancy the gain is too little to consider buying it.

    Royal Huntsman on foot. Again, this must be some sort of an alternative to High Warden of the Flame running around with spear. Definitely the honor is too expensive to ever consider fielding such a prince.

    Queen's Cavalier. Again, just plain too expensive. I suggest 20 pts point drop. I imagine some of you saying "but Furion, you can field now a Dragon and 2 Frost Fenixes, that's surely OP!!!". I wish someone actually take this army to a 40 man touanment with decent representation of every army and auto lose against all VC, VS, ID, DH and so on. The best example of such thinking is the "broken HBE list" by Norway mercenaries playing for Austria, that featured 300 spearmen and 30 lion guards. Any list that pushes too strongly in one direction is a bad list, even against things it is supposed to counter. In this game superiority is not established by puting your units in the middle of the field and fighting. You have to work your way around edges, corners, press an advantage here, and lists that focus too much on 1 aspect just don't play in the game well enough. For me, it is nothing more than a curiosity, and I'll tell you this - I WILL BE HAPPY TO SEE A DRAGON AND 2 FROSTIES because holy smokes that would be some refreshment from all those boring HBE lists.

    Queen's Companion. The only role of honor is to boost Archers and possibly Queen's Guard. The buff comes at 290 points for starters. The honor is cheap by itself (it costs only 40 points) and the point of this change is to maybe see more lightly armed characters with moonlight arrows as some sort of a battle force. 10 points is a switch in a right direction.

    CHARACTER MOUNTS

    Dragon. This is the most playable of all the mounts. This is because again, the issue with HBE is lack of high S to deal with high Amour. The dragon when compared to it counter part is just too expensive. Sylvan dragon can dish 5 s7 attacks with lighting reflexes on offensive 8. Dread Prince on Dragon can dish out attack with killer instinct and is 30 points cheaper. In scale of the cost of the model, 30 pts is 4% of the cost of the model. This is why the HBE still sees play: although it is too expensive for what it offers, it's not too expensive enough in light of other units serving this matter with even worse result. The dragon shoul be made cheaper by 30 pts.

    Ancient Dragon. The base size is pretty much a deal breaker here. The cost in combination with base size... I just don't see it. Since we can't change the base size in this update, the point cost has to be adjusted. Start with 100 pts decrease, which coupled with 30 pts decrease for a dragon should make it a reasonable alternative.

    Now to the good stuff. Griffon, Eagle and Young Dragon. First of all, I don't think there is enough design room to keep all those similiar concepts together. But once again, since we are limited to solely changing the costs of units and nothing more, we must give it a try with points. Young Dragon and Griffon are just plain too expensive. They have never seen competitive play since the beginning of this armybook. These mounts are the most massively overpriced mounts in the entire game. Both the griffon and young dragon should see a 90 pts drop just for the very starters. Think about that in this way: currently you can have a Prince on a Griffon which will serve as a zoner with some survivability for 250 for prince, 200 for griffon, 30 for mundane gear, around 150 for magical gear, which brings us on 680 pts. For this price, you can have almost 2 units of Knights of Ryma, which serve the exact same purpose. And you have 10 wounds, more attack, gimmicks of dragon armor at your disposal. The conclusion is that the prince itself is overpriced, and the mount is overpriced.

    Young dragon can take a little bit of a more tanky role, maybe 2+ rerollable with a lance, but for simliar price you can have... a regular dragon. Resiliance 6 and armor 3+ is very comparable to Resiliance 5 and armor 2+ with reroll. And the big Dragon gives more very precious S6 attacks and a d6 stomps in case you need them. Young Dragon and Griffon should go down by 90 pts each for starters. And I mean it, for starters. Without that, there is just no point in ever considering them.

    Horse. The horse price comes from an age, when Titanic Might gave both +3 strength and +3 armor penetration. This made for a viable prince build. Currently such build is obsolete because AP1 is just simply not enough to ever be considered. I feel like the update on horse price was missed when making changing to the rulebook. Currently the horse should be at least 30 points cheaper, to even consider having a horse mounted character.

    Reaver Chariot - I don't know what is the benefit of having a Prince on a Reaver Chariot. Maybe I miss something, maybe there is some overpowered Light Troops gimmick I fail to use - but judging on my experience, it just makes the chariot significantly more expensive with little to no benefit. Just make it cheaper for starters, I'm not sure will this be enough but once again - let's work in the right direction.

    Prince on Lion Chariot. Currently it comes with around 600 points, Any other army that can field reasonable chariots (Dread Elves, Beast Herds, Empire) can do it for less points with greater benefit. However I propose the mount to be just 20 points cheaper, because in what I suggest it will be cheaper anyway with prince price reduction and with Royal Huntsman honor reduction so it's better to take a small step first.

    Fleet officer on Sky Sloop. Now we are talking heavy drugs. 750 pts for a flying chariots that either is worth 350 points of shooting (when it shoots, I say 350 because it's slightly better than 250 pts for Sky Sloop) or is worth like 400 points for fighting (when it fights) is just pure madness. The utilities of prince on Sky Sloop are mutually exclusive, therefore the price tag should represent that. Currently it only represents what happens when you mix cocaine with amfetamine and funny fungus.

    Finally, we get to OotFH mages. Young Dragon, as sad before: too expensive. The dragon, if you decide to take it to your roster, is by definition a center piece of your army. Its 1200 points worth of points. The closest thing to consider is a yema mage (so no dangerous terrain checks) with wandering familiar (which is MASSIVE as it allows to cast spells from safe distance) and with dagger (another massive point, in combat generates more veil tokens) and this combination is 200 points cheaper. We should start with decreasing the cost of dragon mount by 100 and see from there. Also, the honor itself has received several nerfs: you no longer know the flaming sword spell which is a very strong nerf. Also, in Pyromancy there is a hex spell now that can be cast into combat, so it lowers the value of the upgrade. I would suggest a 20 points drop in honor aswell. Finally, a mage under normal Wizard Master should reiceve a 50 pts drop for the very same reason.

    Ok, so that would be it when it comes to units. I know I have skipped a few, mainly considering the Commander options and honor, but the way I see it the option to go commander or prince is so alike, that in order to make this video understandable I considered only Prince. In short, the Commander should receive the same discounts as Prince, as the roles are the same and the logic of fielding alternatives is the same.

    Now, as a bonus, let's talk magical items.

    HBE have 4 magic items that are playable and 10 magic items that are absolute garbage. The good and playable ones are: Elu's Heartwood, Banner of Becalming, Book of Meladys and Sliver of the Blazing Dawn. The fact I consider is it worth to give spear to a Prince Master of Canreig Tower or should he run with Great Weapon is a good thing. The fact that Banner of Becalming has to be taken on BSB or special unit, and this way I consider should I go Elu's or Becalming is a good thing. The fact that I consider should I go with MoCT and Book of Arcane Power instead of Meladys is again, a good thing. This means that all of those items are on the same level and they provide choice when building your army.

    Now to the not so fun list of bad items.

    Nova Flare. This is no Divine Judgement. With this, you have a paper Prince who won't make it to 2nd round of combat against any other possible threats. The item sees no play as it is just way too expensive.

    Gleaming Robe is just a trick item for me, Destiny's Call is for 70 for 4+ 4+ which is probably better against chaff attacks than a 3+. The item is just too expensive.

    Protection of Dorac. This is an item for on foot characters. But the on foot characters are too expensive and you can't kit them enough to have some survivability and some damage. Then comes some Warriors of Dark Gods lord with Resiliance 5 1+ rerollable save with spiked shield that dishes out 5s7 attacks. The elves have Resiliance 3 and are stompable. This combination means that any armor save on them is less effective than on other, tankier on foot heroes in other armies. The army needs to be cheaper to be considered. If High Warden of the flame will start to be too good - which I sincerely doubt, because we haven't seen him for 2 years now - then maybe just consider the Honor price to go up. But this armor buffin a Sea Guard Prince will not break the game in any way.

    Start Metal Alloy with 50 pts is just not worth it.

    Daemons Bane should be 10 points maximum. Maybe then it would see play.

    War Banner of Ryma no longer gives +1 Armor Penetration. It comes with hidden cost of +20 pts for standard beaer that you usually don't need if your intention is to go with Banner of Ryma. For Knights of Ryma, 80 pts is significantly more than an extra Knight (and that gives you an extra wound and 2 more attacks) and for spearmen I don't think buffing the unit with +1 S on charge is warranted for the price tag.

    Ring of the Pearl Throne is a silly version of OnG Mikinoks Totem or some Dwarven Toys. It should be at least 50 points cheaper to even consider it.

    Diadem of Protection is a more expensive version of Destiny's Call, and comes with hidden cost of a Dragon Armor. It should be slightly cheaper to compensate for that, a 15 pts price drop will suffice.

    Amethyst Crystal is again severly overpriced, It is a slightly better version of Crystall Ball, and Crystal Ball is bad.

    Glitering Laquer is another one of those utility items that are too expensive to warrant taking it. Make it half the price, maybe together with half the cost for griffon it will reach some point of usability. Right now, it will never be taken as it does not pay for what it gives.

    Navigator Banner is slightly overpriced, it should go down by 15 points. The only unit that benefits from this item is Sword Masters: Spears are cheap anyway, Flame Wardens are tanky anyway, Lion Guards don't need this buff, and in Sword Masters it competes with Rending Banner. Currently Redning banner is too good on Swordmasters to not take them.

    OK, that would be it. On a Final note, let's consider some ETC rosters, how would they look under new point costs. I will take 2 top scoring HBE lists into account.


    With this changes in my roster I would exchange 1 Bolt Thrower for a Sky Sloop (it is often hard to find a good position for 3rd Bolt Thrower) and I would take 1 Sea Guard model more to fill the core and add a Luckstone to a Dragon. I leave the judgement to you does that push the roster to being overpowered.



    Henry's roster would end up with 1 more Sea Guard, 2 more Swordmasters, 3 more Queen's Guard and a luckstone. Once again, if units bigger by 2 elves each brake the army, then HBE must be in better shape than I think they are.
    my ETC 2019 roster
    750 - High Prince on Dragon, Dragon, Great Weapon, Obsidian Rock
    565 - Mage: Asfad Scholar, Master, Divination, Book of Meladys,
    485 - High Prince: Queen's Companion, General, Spear, Sliver of the Blazing Dawn, Destiny's Call, Longbow, Moonlight Arrows
    280 - 20x Citizen Spears, MC
    190 - 5x Elein Reavers, Bows
    662 - 27x Sea Guard, MSC, Banner of Speed
    360 - 5x Knights of Ryma, M
    180 - 3x1 Sea Guard Reaper
    663 - 21x Lion Guard, MSC, Banner of Becalming
    4500
  • @Vespacian @Masamune88

    Can we please get a thread like this going:

    Post ETC What points adjustments do you think would help the Army?
    Point adjustment suggestions for autumn update

    Post ETC, what adjustments do you think would improve the army?

    SA balance ideas

    ...so that suggestions/feedback from the HbE playerbase about this specific subject doesn't get buried under heaps of inane (and often off-topic) kipple this amorphous blob of a thread tends to generate at an insane rate like some cancerous growth gone wild? It would be better if it's initiated by one of our ACS people and perhaps also stickied. Furion's video could be added to the OP along with a set of rules for discussion like "please don't let it devolve into 35 pages of back-and-forth discussion about the general importance of the Core section or the minutiae of data gathering methodology".
  • Nice post by Furion, even though the many many comparisons to stuff the other elf factions have are rather pointless

    Don't disagree Lancers might need a point drop, but worst heavy cavalry in the game is bit harsh. Depending on whether you count 4+ non-light cavalry units in the same category I think there are several units out there with stronger claims to that title.

    All the rest - Sure :). I do think he misses some important points in the urge to talk down HBE here and there (as a VC player lemme assure you that Queensguard with their flaming/magical arrows are NOT the same as Archers :) ). The update likely won't go over every unit/item and revalue them, so maybe that huge analysis could do with a "Top 10"