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  • i was too harsh/rude and rushed my argument, apology for that.

    Our strengh is path selection, i think a majority of player agrees on that.
    But i would maintain that asfad, not denying it beeing strong, does not bring variety. I think Ootfh is debatable. It has impact through the attribute of alchemy and tricky rules when mounted.
    Moct, no doubt.

    Now if you speak of option, as in customisation (and beeing reasonable), i think we do not have much variety :
    Master+ adept/bsb
    Moct prince + adept

    And that's kinda it. Which does not feels like this much (outside of path selection).

    Our magical items are decent with 2 out of 3 (becalming and meladys)
  • I can understand Asfad not feeling terribly different from vanilla mage, but OotFH? The choice between vanilla mage and OotFH alone is a bigger difference in how your magic phase plays than all the SE choices together.

    With all due respect, you are literally so spoilt for choice that you've lost sight of just how good your choices already are.

    What's the difference between a dryad and a treefather ancient? Access to wizard master, durability and some combat power. You get more than that from sticking your mage on a dragon!

    Now, despite that, I do think a conclave unit could be a great addition to HE. I don't know whether the potential wound pool makes infantry blocks too difficult to remove, but FW already have the 4+, so making them a conclave with spells from alchemy, pyromancy and cosmology might be cool.

    Or doing something really different, like a conclave warden's bond for a Phoenix, or make AD an unridden monster with wizard conclave.

    I'd certainly be disappointed if HE got a conclave and it was light cavalry with an aegis.
  • CariadocThorne wrote:

    I can understand Asfad not feeling terribly different from vanilla mage, but OotFH? The choice between vanilla mage and OotFH alone is a bigger difference in how your magic phase plays than all the SE choices together.

    With all due respect, you are literally so spoilt for choice that you've lost sight of just how good your choices already are.

    What's the difference between a dryad and a treefather ancient? Access to wizard master, durability and some combat power. You get more than that from sticking your mage on a dragon!

    Now, despite that, I do think a conclave unit could be a great addition to HE. I don't know whether the potential wound pool makes infantry blocks too difficult to remove, but FW already have the 4+, so making them a conclave with spells from alchemy, pyromancy and cosmology might be cool.

    Or doing something really different, like a conclave warden's bond for a Phoenix, or make AD an unridden monster with wizard conclave.

    I'd certainly be disappointed if HE got a conclave and it was light cavalry with an aegis.
    Choice is overrated. I'd take 1 good option over 10 sub-optimal ones any day.
  • CariadocThorne wrote:

    I can understand Asfad not feeling terribly different from vanilla mage, but OotFH? The choice between vanilla mage and OotFH alone is a bigger difference in how your magic phase plays than all the SE choices together.

    With all due respect, you are literally so spoilt for choice that you've lost sight of just how good your choices already are.

    Now, despite that, I do think a conclave unit could be a great addition to HE. I don't know whether the potential wound pool makes infantry blocks too difficult to remove, but FW already have the 4+, so making them a conclave with spells from alchemy, pyromancy and cosmology might be cool.Or doing something really different, like a conclave warden's bond for a Phoenix, or make AD an unridden monster with wizard conclave.
    Dunno. One way or other my WDG army feels like it has more and more varied options than HbE.

    The nice thing with Treefathers, Medusas and Giants is that they aren't just vulnerable casters that cower in units or get protection from mounts (which also costs loads of extra points) but can do other useful stuff as well. They still spread magic threat across the battlefield so you don't necessarily have to be in range of your one and only caster. And bring more versatility in spell choice, even of they bring only one or two.

    Sure you have a lot of choice when building an army but you can only take one, max two casters. MoCT is absolutely great because it's not iust another caster but can also be BSB and actually use weapons. Asfad is just extra range, not unlike the DE familiar. OOtFH gives another magic path but still isn't a fighter (with a measily 1 attack and OS4).

    A Phoenix WC would be perfect I think, I also like the fire and ice theme. For instance Fire chooses from Fire from Ice and Fire (Cosmo) and Cleansing Fire (Thaumaturgy) and Frosty chooses from Ice from Ice + Fire (Cosmo) and Chilling Howl (Shamanism). Very fluffy.
    + :WDG_bw: :HE: :SA: + This forum need polls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Maybe i lost sight yeah. That can be true.

    I have played the mage drake without success. What was mostly notable is that you really want the H to get through as most of your army is high valuable pts. I played him cheap (without heroes heart or shineanigans) so i may not have the greatest POV, but honestly, having a standard mage on drake would rouhgly do the same, i was mainly counting on the rerrollable breath to do dmg (this one is fun).

    I do not envision how the magic phase is that different i'm sorry. Neither do i know the difference between mage and treefather in playstyle. I would lvoe to get your insight.
  • This is a very personal opinion, but I find MCav and MInf options quite boring. I want to play elves, not elves bringing their pets to battle.
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

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  • CariadocThorne wrote:

    With all due respect, you are literally so spoilt for choice that you've lost sight of just how good your choices already are.
    keep in mind, otofh is a paywall to access pyro and alchemy. vanilla mage alone doesnt cut either if you compare him to some other books, there is reason why you mostly see asfad divi mage and a motct in the backline holding the army together. even then, its only two models with different flavor :)
  • CariadocThorne wrote:

    ...
    Now, despite that, I do think a conclave unit could be a great addition to HE. I don't know whether the potential wound pool makes infantry blocks too difficult to remove, but FW already have the 4+, so making them a conclave with spells from alchemy, pyromancy and cosmology might be cool.
    ...
    This is something that would help not only in bringing more variety of choices in magic, but also wider use of special infantry choices. Would be best solution for book IMO.

    @Grand frere

    Personaly I would like a bit diffrent changes to both SM and WL. Basicly, add a bit of protection to SM, make strating size 10 with discount, ekstra models cheaper. 1A each with Battle Focus, and AP1 in profile. Don't have to pay ekstra for additiona attack which are not used from 2nd&3th rank, but BF and additional AP would make up for this I think. And changing starting size makes medium/big size units more affordable, because you dont have to pay a chaff tax.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by pazda_pl ().

  • @CariadocThorne

    Do not forget that HE alone among the elven races have no access to apprentice mages.

    Design wise and tied to background Asfad scholar is Tier 3 mage level in HE book.

    Also, Wconclaves give options for very different playstyles (it is possible to have 4 spell magic phase without a single point spent in magic in characters) in regards to regular mages.

    So, depending how you look, HE have reduced magic options when comparing the other books, not the other way arround. :D

    Some access to either WCon-s or some bound item spells tied to unit upgrades should appear in the full rework methinks.

    But do not take my words for gospel, it is just my personal take on things.
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

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  • Bound spell sounds less magical superiority to me.

    But single use scrolls otoh could be fun.

    I see bound spells as not so strong. I mean sure when cast right time could be really good but in general they're not strong.

    Scrolls by virtue of being single use could be stronger in effect and represent more magical superiority. No real defence against it (unless included in the wording of the scroll, which would then dictate the cost)
  • matrim wrote:

    Bound spell sounds less magical superiority to me.

    But single use scrolls otoh could be fun.

    I see bound spells as not so strong. I mean sure when cast right time could be really good but in general they're not strong.

    Scrolls by virtue of being single use could be stronger in effect and represent more magical superiority. No real defence against it (unless included in the wording of the scroll, which would then dictate the cost)
    I see bound spells as being less magically superior. Factions that don't have much access to wizards will use the bound stuff.

    That being said, if HBE do get bound spell stuff I would see it as a reflection of their high commerce city society with magical schools everywhere being able to produce these items. ....and those items have to better quality than a rag on a stick.

    So access to powerful scrolls would be a fitting role for this. It's an interesting avenue to explore for T9A game design.
    Daemon Legions have +1 to cast, easy access to Wizard Conclave, repeatable spell, and lots of token generation. Which lets them have lots of power dice to cast spells.
    HBE have lots of little gimmics but are still limited by the power dice. -1 to cast helps, expensive book of melady's helps, but it falls a bit short.
    Perhaps powerful scrolls that are like bound spells but make very efficient use of powerdice could be explored.
    use 2 dice and it casts at bound level 8? ...so basically geting the value from 3 dice bound spell for 2.
    That feels more magically superior.

    Anyway, definitely something that should be explored. I doubt the final version of rules would be anything close to what we brainstorm here anyway. :)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Peacemaker ().

  • cptcosmic wrote:

    CariadocThorne wrote:

    With all due respect, you are literally so spoilt for choice that you've lost sight of just how good your choices already are.
    keep in mind, otofh is a paywall to access pyro and alchemy. vanilla mage alone doesnt cut either if you compare him to some other books, there is reason why you mostly see asfad divi mage and a motct in the backline holding the army together. even then, its only two models with different flavor :)
    Compared to some armies, absolutely. Off the top of my head though, I'd guess HBE can still pull off a better magic phase than at least half the other books can, just with vanilla mages and magic items.

    As for diversity, I don't think many armies have as many options which actually effect how their magic phase plays as HBE do.

    That doesn't mean there is no room for improvement though, HBE should be a top magical race after all.

    ArchangelusM wrote:

    @CariadocThorne

    Do not forget that HE alone among the elven races have no access to apprentice mages.

    Design wise and tied to background Asfad scholar is Tier 3 mage level in HE book.

    Also, Wconclaves give options for very different playstyles (it is possible to have 4 spell magic phase without a single point spent in magic in characters) in regards to regular mages.

    So, depending how you look, HE have reduced magic options when comparing the other books, not the other way arround. :D

    Some access to either WCon-s or some bound item spells tied to unit upgrades should appear in the full rework methinks.

    But do not take my words for gospel, it is just my personal take on things.
    Access to apprentices isn't a big deal IMO. Elves are too expensive to bring apprentices as caddies, and honestly, aside from an occasional Dryad, I don't see apprentices much in SE either.

    I do agree about Conclaves, and totally agree HBE should have one. I just think HBE have a good range of choice for the magic phase already, and that suggesting that SE have better choices is ridiculous.

    Suggesting some armies do, sure, but SE? No way. Hell, as I said a few days ago, I only play HBE these days when I want to enjoy my magic phase for a change.
  • @CariadocThorne I agree with you that HbE have no less variance in paths available. 4 full paths + assortment of #1 spells.
    But the chassis for these paths are limited in HbE, that's what people are trying to tell you. You have 4 different units to provide magic. We have only 2. We want a diversity, not having to buy magic only from characters. Hooray for the Conclave Phoenix!

    And I fully expect HbE to be more versalite and powerful magic wise than SE. Do you not agree?
  • AlexCat wrote:

    @CariadocThorne I agree with you that HbE have no less variance in paths available. 4 full paths + assortment of #1 spells.
    But the chassis for these paths are limited in HbE, that's what people are trying to tell you. You have 4 different units to provide magic. We have only 2. We want a diversity, not having to buy magic only from characters. Hooray for the Conclave Phoenix!

    And I fully expect HbE to be more versalite and powerful magic wise than SE. Do you not agree?
    It depends what we mean by diversity.

    When we're talking about diversity in magic options, I'm looking for options which:
    • give me access to different paths
    • Let me choose spells outside the normal path structure
    • let me play my caster in a way other options can't.
    Both SE and HE have the first of those. Both have the second, SE through the BM wizard conclave, and HBE through the MoCT's Protean Magic.
    SE don't have the third, HE do.

    What SE have instead, is options for physically tougher caster chasis, either the Dryad at R4 with 5++, but no armour and no magic items means they aren't really any more durable than a HE mage with a magic item or two, and the Treefather ancient at a mighty Res6, HP6, 3+5++, but wth access to only a single magic item which must be an artifact.

    If you want a Res 6 mage, stick him on a dragon, You'll have better combat stats, better mobility and a breath attack. You won't lose him so easily to a 400pt cowboy either.

    It seems to me that the only possible definiton by which SE have more diversity is if you look only at cosmetics. Then sure, SE have an elf mage, a band of elf witches, a small tree spirit or a big tree spirit, while HE just have elf mages in different colour robes.
  • Ok, let's look at it a different fashion:
    While we do have options that give us different path access, they do not significantly change the available ways to play the mage. You are still looking at a Res3 HP3 guy on foot that has to be backlined and is going to shoot out its spells from behind your line. Whether he is a standard mage with Divination, Cosmology, or Pyromancy . . . or an OotFH with Alchemy (you should never pick Pyromancy with OotFH), the function of the mage is the same. Here we see that Asfad is the same thing because it leads to the same play: A Res3 HP3 on foot mage that needs babysitters. So regardless of having options to "choose a new path" for the foot slogger, he plays exactly the same. Had Alchemy been added to standard mages, we'd probably have ZERO play to OotFH (as it took a MASSIVE nerf when Pyromancy was nerfed from "balanced lore" into "Man, screw elves").

    Then let's look at the Dragon Mages. You get a choice between a Mage on a Dragon, or a OotFH on a Dragon. Both play the exact same way. The difference is that you will pay a premium for a (most of the time) slightly better dragon. However, the playstyle does not change between the Mage on a Dragon and the OotFH on a Dragon (note a Young Dragon can be significantly better for OotFH, but pays an extreme premium as it is over 2x the price of a standard mage's young dragon).

    Then we have the MoCT, which actually DOES provide us with significant magical variety by giving Protean magic to a large number of paths AND allowing us to keep Fountain of Youth for focused healing.

    Following this, HbE would have two options for magic:
    - Mage, which can be played as Mage on Dragon or backline support
    - MoCT

    By contrast, SE would have 3:
    - Druid (druid on dragon vs. backline support)
    - Briar Maidens
    - A more aggressive/fighty mage in Tree models.

    Now, this is not to say that HbE magic is inferior. HbE magic is good, when utilized and invested in properly. This usually means a Master w/ 2 casting artefacts as well as some form of MoCT (the BSB being the most common one because of its efficiency). In those cases, the magic phase for HbE is good (though whether it is "top 5" is arguable both ways). HbE also have the option to make somewhat effective "budget" magic phases by using an MoCT with Magical Heirloom + Void Talisman and Banner of Becalming. This would give you 4 spells (at BSB) or 6 spells (at Prince) to craft a decent magic phase. Whether it would be worth it is questionable due to the lack of redundancy.

    At the end of the day, HbE have good magic (though I don't feel like it's Top 5). The problem is that it's fairly standardized because your choices will always run similarly (Backline Fooslogger Mage + MoCT, Mage on Dragon +/- MoCT).


    As I mentioned, I think that a Wizard Conclave would be a cool idea. I'd simply like it to be a UNIQUE idea, rather than rehashing the same "light cavalry with 4+ Aegis" from SE and DE. Which is why I thought an Infantry unit with a defensively skewed spell list (e.g. Hand of Glory, Unity in Divergence, Stone Skin) could be an interesting unit to explore. It's different from other elves not just in function (Infantry support vs. light cavalry) but also in the magic it provides (skewed towards defensive magic as opposed to the more balanced spell lists that SE and DE sport).

    Doing this, walking back the Alchemy Tax, and walking back the OotFH nerfs and On Foot option, would then give us several options:
    1) Foot Slogger that supports from the rear (Standard mage, Asfad)
    2) Defensive Support Wizard Conclave (for keeping those sweet elite infantries alive!)
    3) Mage on Dragon that serves as both a bombardier and a great combat support unit (OotFH)
    4) Aggressive Combat Mage (MoCT) that works by providing "close in support" while fighting on the front lines.

    Once we have those options, we can think of having items (be they artefacts, armors, or weapons) that support the spellcasters and provide interesting and unique options.


    PS. @CariadocThorne, if you think no part of a HbE magic phase is mediocre, the Amethyst Crystal would like a word with you. ;)