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  • Masamune88 wrote:

    one thing I will note from my time behind the curtain.

    BGT, RT and various ADT team members really liked the notion of HBE as the pinnacle of control.

    Be that magical control, battlefield control or self control.

    Lean into that with your ideas and suggestions and you will get more traction
    While I understand this suggestion as a play style of concentrated long range fire, combined with fast armored charges.... the concept of control is an exceptionally hard and awkward concept to balance around.

    What doesn't scream battlefield control if not brutally powerful tools that other armies seem entitled to over hbe? Obviously the army that controls the battle should in principle win?

    What are the limits to this concept of control? Is it that HBE get to choose the fights with an offset of fragility. And this comes in the form of some extra movement and... !?

    I think our hereditary spell is an eloquent way to give HBE this aspect of control without feeling overpowered. But it is difficult to wrap my head around how control isn't simply just brute Force, be it magic presence or battlefield presence.
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • jaith1 wrote:

    Masamune88 wrote:

    one thing I will note from my time behind the curtain.

    BGT, RT and various ADT team members really liked the notion of HBE as the pinnacle of control.

    Be that magical control, battlefield control or self control.

    Lean into that with your ideas and suggestions and you will get more traction
    While I understand this suggestion as a play style of concentrated long range fire, combined with fast armored charges.... the concept of control is an exceptionally hard and awkward concept to balance around.
    What doesn't scream battlefield control if not brutally powerful tools that other armies seem entitled to over hbe? Obviously the army that controls the battle should in principle win?

    What are the limits to this concept of control? Is it that HBE get to choose the fights with an offset of fragility. And this comes in the form of some extra movement and... !?

    I think our hereditary spell is an eloquent way to give HBE this aspect of control without feeling overpowered. But it is difficult to wrap my head around how control isn't simply just brute Force, be it magic presence or battlefield presence.
    Which is the beauty of the concept, conceptually HBE can be molded into any form of control however if you take into account DE and its beatstick approach and SE and its hit and run approach you'll find that Magic, veil control, hammer and anvil, zoning and messing with the opponents phase are all very much viable and more importantly available

    Think of it like this, what would you think of a one use item that halves the advancing distance of an enemy unit? a banner that increases the casting cost of all spells by 2+ for a phase, a shield that reflects half of the cc attacks back at the attacker, FW providing channel and MR in a bubble/retargeting MMs to themselves etc.

    The ideas that where coming around where focusing on making your opponent feel as though they had to make incredibly difficult decisions (and by extension make more mistakes) whilst mitigating HBE fragility through good play and thinking ahead.

    HBE should be played in such a way that you are thinking 2 or 3 turns ahead and dictating the flow of the battle, not reactionary.

    FoM is the outcome of a lot of these discussions, the idea of subtly pushing combats into your favour, clinching a key combat or supporting your prince to fight the big baddies was heavily encouraged and seen as a defining feature.

    HBE are the civilized elves, who strive to control all they see, not by force of arms but by political machinations, monetary power and influence. Influence being the key.

    Influence combat, influence magic, influence movement, influence shooting. This is what a lot of the team was looking at. Not winning by stats, winning by influence.
    Once a Highborn, always a Highborn.
  • Perhaps the Amethyst Crystal could be stronger for dispel attempts against spells targeting units that have already been the target of a successful spell. It's a bit of a clunky mechanic because you need to keep track of it each magic phase though.

    The idea is to make it tougher for the opponent to focus all magic missiles or hexes on the same unit.
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    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
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  • elendor_f wrote:

    Perhaps the Amethyst Crystal could be stronger for dispel attempts against spells targeting units that have already been the target of a successful spell. It's a bit of a clunky mechanic because you need to keep track of it each magic phase though.

    The idea is to make it tougher for the opponent to focus all magic missiles or hexes on the same unit.
    Or go the "messing with your phase route" one use only, spells affecting target unit are subject to 2+ increase to casting cost

    Or go with control the magic phase. Mental feedback - One use only - for each successful magical missile cast by this unit, the caster suffers D6 S4 Ap0 with divine attacks hits at the end of the magic phase

    Make it a mind game, with real tangible meaning behind decisions and people will like it.
    Once a Highborn, always a Highborn.
  • So reporting outcome of a game:

    List:
    Characters:
    - Prince: General, Queen's Cavalier, Elven Horese, Dragonforged Armor, Lance, Shield, Nova Flare, Basalt Infusion, Diadem of Protection.
    - Commander: Queen's Cavalier, Elven Horse, Heavy Armor, Paired Weapons, Alchemist's Alloy, Hero's Heart.
    - Commander: BSB, MoCT, Essence of Mithril, Great Weapon, Magical Heirloom
    - Mage: Adept, Rod of Battle (this was a mistake), Talisman of the Void
    Core:
    - Lancers x12, FCG, Banner of Speed
    - Elein Reavers
    - Elein Reavers
    - Archers x10, Musician
    Special:
    - 25 Sword Masters, FCG, Navigator Banner
    - 21 Flame Wardens, FCG, Banner of Becalming
    Naval Ordinance:
    - Bolt Throwers x2

    My opponent's list:
    Characters:
    - Runesmith, shield, 3x Battle Rune
    - Thane, Shield, BSB
    - Anvil of Power
    Special:
    - Kingsguard x30, Muso/Std, Banner of Wisdom
    Artillery:
    - Bolt Thrower x3
    Core:
    - Greybeards x20, Standard, Shield
    - Dwarf Warriors x20, Great Weapons
    - Spear Dwarf x20 w/ Shield (11 units total)

    So, some thoughts:
    1) Nova Flare does not work on a horse prince. At the end of the day, a Hero Heart prince will have a similar effect on the unit AND boost its grinding power. Lack of mobility on a horse guy means he won't be able to hunt characters effectively. I *do* think the Commander on a Horse, if I'd gone with Hero's Heart + Shield, would do a similar effect on the charge and better on the grind. The big question is "is an extra attack worth the added vulnerability of a 2+ armor?" To this, I cannot say. I will mention that he died to spear dwarves rolling on 4's and 4's with a 2+ save over 2 rounds of combat. So that tempts me to go with the 1+ save and drop an attack, given his cost.

    2) Lancers are DEFINITELY too pricy for what they bring to the table. A unit of 5 is basically "heavy chaff" that is unable to zone anything. A bus will not provide much more than "possibly flank and break steadfast". Granted, this was probably the WORST matchup for them possible. However, it just seems like even in situations where they might get a GOOD matchup, it's not that good. The fact that they lose out on Favor of Meladys just hurts them more. The ADDITIONAL fact that a unit of 5 Knights of Ryma is about half their price for a much better combat/zoning unit adds even more to the "Not that great" pile.


    PS. Flame Wardens were VERY surprising. Supporting them with offensive magic made for one HECK of a drug. MoFo's were out for blood and eliminated 20 Spear Dwarves, 30 King's Guard, and 20 Greybeards single handedly. . . all with usually only 1 spell up on them (Beast within while the MoCT was still alive, Word of Iron once he was not).

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Aenarion43 ().

  • Masamune88 wrote:



    FoM is the outcome of a lot of these discussions, the idea of subtly pushing combats into your favour, clinching a key combat or supporting your prince to fight the big baddies was heavily encouraged and seen as a defining feature.

    HBE are the civilized elves, who strive to control all they see, not by force of arms but by political machinations, monetary power and influence. Influence being the key.

    Influence combat, influence magic, influence movement, influence shooting. This is what a lot of the team was looking at. Not winning by stats, winning by influence.
    "Winning by Influence" is all well and good, but there's a limit to how much "influence" can affect the game. At the end of the day, you can "control" all you like. If all you have is "influence and control", then you're going to end up losing. There needs to be a point where the hammer falls.

    Things that influence how hard our hammer falls are good. Things that influence where our hammer can fall have the potential to be good (e.g. Asfad, Meladys). Things that influence your opponent's hammer. . . are unlikely to be allowed to be good for their price and opportunity cost (e.g. Frost Phoenix). So while I like the idea of "Highborn work by influence", that really is something that needs to be done with a very careful eye, since truthfully "Machinations, Money, and Influence" are not things that work in the TT. They are GREAT for something like Total Warhammer 2 (where you can definitely see political machinations, influence, and monetary power at play in the Asur).

    Masamune88 wrote:

    Or go the "messing with your phase route" one use only, spells affecting target unit are subject to 2+ increase to casting cost
    Or go with control the magic phase. Mental feedback - One use only - for each successful magical missile cast by this unit, the caster suffers D6 S4 Ap0 with divine attacks hits at the end of the magic phase

    Make it a mind game, with real tangible meaning behind decisions and people will like it.
    I'd prefer to have better control over our own magic phase. It'd probably be considered too powerful/OP, but something like:
    Amethyst Ring (since there's a hard on for elven rings in BGT, I hear :P :( One Use Only. You may choose a Flux Card from those remaining in your deck, and replace the card you drew with the selected card. Shuffle your Flux cards afterwards.

    This would fit "control", as you are choosing the flux card selected. It comes with the restriction that already used cards cannot be used, but allows you to "fix" a magic phase by getting a better one out. Alternately, you could use it to get a bad flux card (like 2 or 1) out of the way early in the game, thus making your next phases better.

    I'd like things that are ACTIVE to be the focus of the army. So controlling our OWN phases and turns, rather than trying to mess with an opponent's. Remember, anything like that is risking a weak/poor design because designing things that are frustrating for opponents is considered bad. Things that help the active player also tend to be viewed FAR more positively by opponents than thing that hurt them (see, counterspells in MtG).
  • Aenarion43 wrote:


    I'd prefer to have better control over our own magic phase. It'd probably be considered too powerful/OP, but something like:

    Amethyst Ring (since there's a hard on for elven rings in BGT, I hear :P :( One Use Only. You may choose a Flux Card from those remaining in your deck, and replace the card you drew with the selected card. Shuffle your Flux cards afterwards.


    Nice, like it! Until it's not super expensive. Could be nerfed a bit to: draw 2 flux cards and choose one of them.
  • Masamune88 wrote:

    HBE should be played in such a way that you are thinking 2 or 3 turns ahead and dictating the flow of the battle, not reactionary.
    Just to put some more thoughts on this sentence:

    First every army benefits from thinking 2 or 3 turns ahead and gets a bonus from this. So if HBE get even better than other armies by playing good and thinking ahead, they should be slightly worse off when not doing this to balance it out.
    This results in a lot of players feeling bad as they fail to think so far ahead (which is really difficult!).
    -> The skill required to play HBE is raised, so even if the army is overall balanced it won't feel this way.

    However, I do like the idea of "master of control" part, however that ends up being expressed mechanically. A job for the LAB team :). The Hereditary is a good way to go for this I feel.
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  • Aenarion43 wrote:

    So reporting outcome of a game:

    List:
    Characters:
    - Prince: General, Queen's Cavalier, Elven Horese, Dragonforged Armor, Lance, Shield, Nova Flare, Alchemist's Alloy, Diadem of Protection.
    - Commander: Queen's Cavalier, Elven Horse, Heavy Armor, Paired Weapons, Alchemist's Alloy, Hero's Heart.
    - Commander: BSB, MoCT, Essence of Mithril, Great Weapon, Magical Heirloom
    - Mage: Adept, Rod of Battle (this was a mistake), Talisman of the Void
    Core:
    - Lancers x12, FCG, Banner of Speed
    - Elein Reavers
    - Elein Reavers
    - Archers x10, Musician
    Special:
    - 25 Sword Masters, FCG, Navigator Banner
    - 21 Flame Wardens, FCG, Banner of Becalming
    Naval Ordinance:
    - Bolt Throwers x2

    My opponent's list:
    Characters:
    - Runesmith, shield, 3x Battle Rune
    - Thane, Shield, BSB
    - Anvil of Power
    Special:
    - Kingsguard x30, Muso/Std, Banner of Wisdom
    Artillery:
    - Bolt Thrower x3
    Core:
    - Greybeards x20, Standard, Shield
    - Dwarf Warriors x20, Great Weapons
    - Spear Dwarf x20 w/ Shield (11 units total)

    So, some thoughts:
    1) Nova Flare does not work on a horse prince. At the end of the day, a Hero Heart prince will have a similar effect on the unit AND boost its grinding power. Lack of mobility on a horse guy means he won't be able to hunt characters effectively. I *do* think the Commander on a Horse, if I'd gone with Hero's Heart + Shield, would do a similar effect on the charge and better on the grind. The big question is "is an extra attack worth the added vulnerability of a 2+ armor?" To this, I cannot say. I will mention that he died to spear dwarves rolling on 4's and 4's with a 2+ save over 2 rounds of combat. So that tempts me to go with the 1+ save and drop an attack, given his cost.

    2) Lancers are DEFINITELY too pricy for what they bring to the table. A unit of 5 is basically "heavy chaff" that is unable to zone anything. A bus will not provide much more than "possibly flank and break steadfast". Granted, this was probably the WORST matchup for them possible. However, it just seems like even in situations where they might get a GOOD matchup, it's not that good. The fact that they lose out on Favor of Meladys just hurts them more. The ADDITIONAL fact that a unit of 5 Knights of Ryma is about half their price for a much better combat/zoning unit adds even more to the "Not that great" pile.


    PS. Flame Wardens were VERY surprising. Supporting them with offensive magic made for one HECK of a drug. MoFo's were out for blood and eliminated 20 Spear Dwarves, 30 King's Guard, and 20 Greybeards single handedly. . . all with usually only 1 spell up on them (Beast within while the MoCT was still alive, Word of Iron once he was not).
    Are those character loadouts right? Alloy is on there twice
  • @20phoenix
    My guess is the Commander actually has Basalt Infusion, since he is equipped with HA.

    Why on earth he took Alch Alloy (-2 OS!?) after investing in expensive upgrades like QC and Nova is beyond me. I do not agree with his assesment of the Nova horse Prince, i still think its the best use of Nova, but it does leave me a bit more open minded of Nova on Griffon.

    His conclusion on Lancers is correct imo. Lancers seriously just need Dev Charge (+1 A) and be done with it. The +1 S/AP/OS/DS/Di + Fireborn on the Ryma's will still justify their existance in comparison and you would still see big and small units of Lancers and Ryma's.
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • Just a comment on the "Control" concept.

    I feel (and this is only personal opinion) that achieving control by messing with opponents is more of a DE and SE thing. If you look at fluff, stuff like Witchcraft, trickery and deception are very thematic to both DE and SE. Mechanically, I'm not sure about DE, as I don't know how they are being redesigned for the LAB, but for SE at least, stuff like messing with opponent's movement fits very well, as it compliments their own mobility. You can see this sometimes in things like the banner of silent mists, which can remove units ability to make swift reforms, or put them at -1 to march tests, or in the use of things like treesinging or Break the Spirit to discourage marching/charging due to DT tests.

    For HE, I feel that "control" should not be about making it harder for your opponent to things they would normally, but rather about letting your own units do things they wouldn't normally. The hereditary is a great example, as it lets your units go into combats they normally wouldn't, or even come unscathed through situations you might not normally risk. So along the same lines, I think more temporary buffs which let your units do things they normally wouldnt could be a great way of representing the HE style of control.

    Forest blocking your cavalry charge? Give your cavalry ghost step for a turn.

    Want to thin out those back-line archers wiithout putting your own archers in charge range of the enemy infantry? Give your archers +6" range for a turn.

    Want to catch your opponent out with a suprisingly long range infantry charge? Give them +3 Adv and swiftstride for a turn.

    Things like this could parralel the EoS orders system, but rather than making a unit simply do what it usually does better, it lets a unit do something it wouldn't usually be able to do. It could also reflect HE command mixing leadership and magic from a background perspective, which would seem fitting.

    To make things interesting and encourage forward planning, you could have characters able to buy several of these "magical orders", outside of their normal item allowance, with each being one use only. You would then have a set pool of magical orders available to your army, and you would need to plan ahead to get thhe best out of the orders available, rather than using them in a reactionary fashion, then not having them when you most need them later on.

    Maybe I'm way off here, but that is how I picture HE's drive to control, enforcing their will on the world, making the impossible possible, and not allowing such trivial details as the fundamental laws of space and time to get in their way. I think there is room there for some really cool rules which would really fit HE and work with HE characters. The mechanics I've suggested here are just an example of the sort of thing which I think could be possible.

    Imagine an HE commander staring out over the battlefield, and an aide comes up to him and tells him the distance from the hill where he has positioned his archers to the enemy is too far. Rather than order the archers to move forward, he orders the space to shrink!
  • I think it would feel better if those things were linked to the magic rather than just a special kind of order.

    I could see these things as options taken by our mages/archmages and that they could use whenever they want in exchange of some Veil Tokens! (I would also give more option to create Veil Tokens in order to not ruin our magic phase ^^)

    This way it would feel really magical! You could then allow some of these "orders" only for archmages ect ect...
  • faramir wrote:

    I think it would feel better if those things were linked to the magic rather than just a special kind of order.

    I could see these things as options taken by our mages/archmages and that they could use whenever they want in exchange of some Veil Tokens! (I would also give more option to create Veil Tokens in order to not ruin our magic phase ^^)

    This way it would feel really magical! You could then allow some of these "orders" only for archmages ect ect...
    Channel (2) perhaps with an honour?
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  • I mean, Favor of Meladys would need a rework, but I’d be ok with that. I don’t think Channel 2 on an Honor would necessarily work. Odds are we aren’t getting any extra, and we’re already somewhat strapped. Unless you meant add it to an existing one, which.... also is a bit iffy as Asfad is at the correct price point. Doubling it to 190 points for more channel would kinda put things a bit ridiculous for price (especially as mages would see a price hike for this ability, likely on the base form). OotFH would have issues as it ideally smacks the dude into a Dragon only (there’s been talk of moving alchemy to standard mages and making OotFH Pyro only). So then we have MoCT.... which then also comes into the pricing issue. I dunno, unless something relaxes with regards to the number and function of Honors, I don’t see it happening. Maybe add it as an effect to an item? Channel in the opponent’s phase to boost that and Meladys?


    I really DO like the idea of “subverting reality” through using Veil tokens, and would love to see that added in.

    PS. With a rework to Meladys to be well designed and not cripple our magic phases.
  • Amethyst Crystal: Remove dispel modifier, replace with drain magic bound spell. 50sih points.

    Asfad: remove drain magic bound spell, replace with "knows 5 spells" or "always knows spell 1 of chosen path".

    OotFH: Is fine, even if it is just a tax for alchemy. Regular Mage should either be given access to alchemy or OotFH should be the fire option and regular mage could replace pyro path with some other magic path.

    I think of magic control as a wider variety of spells available. Maybe give the option to make one spell replicable would have the same effect but with less flexibility. I would additionally like more mage honours so we could roll it into that.

    Asfad Scribe: Wizard Adept only. Once per turn on the controlling player's magic phase may attempt to cast the spell previously cast by any controlling wizard (not bound spells, not failed casts). Casting dice and targets are allocated and chosen normally. Probably 50-70 points. Would let you double slap with a spell or try again if a spell is dispelled with the restriction that you would have to attempt the double spell simultaneously.

    If we want more magic phase control I would like to see an anti-mage honor. Like "enemy models within 36" reduce their channel value by 1"