Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is available! You can read all about it in the news.

The brand new army book for Infernal Dwarves is finally available, along with a small surprise! Remember that it is a beta version, and provide us your feedback!

  • @PTG-Lucky-Sixes
    Noted about the dirty rats!

    For new ID feel free to request some tips or explain what you find difficult about the new book in this thread: HE Community feedback on the Infernal Dwarves Beta Slimbook

    I hear Lion Chariot fan and Ring of the Pearl Throne connoisseur @BustaMoovee has beaten the pyromaniac stunties recently :)
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor paints Highborn Elves

    Avatar from: The Silmarillion Project
  • A new version of the Errata is available.

    fjugin wrote:

    New errata available on the downloads page. Version 8
    As always, recent changes are marked in blue.


    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor paints Highborn Elves

    Avatar from: The Silmarillion Project
  • Didn't really update the lexicons for HE themselves (because they are already current), but you now have a index for the rules and I made sure all the links work (if you spell them how the armybook spells them):

    Index of Highborn Elf Rules or Index HER
    Index of Highborn Elf Units or Index HEU

    Working on this for every army, but HE is checked off as complete on this end. Let me know if I missed something.
    For Lexicon-team Project Blog: Updated lexicons
    If you need a mod: Moderator Request thread
    (I'm no mod, but seemed like a link that should be everywhere)

    Friend me on Pokemon Go: 4753 8292 4177
  • Hi!

    This is probably slightly old news to many, but I thought it would still be interesting:

    Results from the Ocho team tournament:
    tourneykeeper.net/Team/TKTeamcodexleaderboard.aspx?id=3187

    HE Ocho lists:
    HE General and News - Discussion

    On first glance, Highborn Elves were the fifth most popular faction and the fifth top performing faction (tied on average points with KoE).

    You can check the battle reports of second best HE scoring player @Arthur (tied with the one and only @BustaMoovee) here: Highborns in the OCHO
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor paints Highborn Elves

    Avatar from: The Silmarillion Project
  • Also: the HE lists for the online team tournament Cinco de Wingo:
    HE lists - Cinco de Wingo
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor paints Highborn Elves

    Avatar from: The Silmarillion Project
  • Thanks for the plug, @elendor_f. I'm writing the conclusions as we speak - but a sneak peak for general discussion - I think it's fantastic that the two players tied for best HBE had completely different builds, which are also both miles away from the norm to boot. The internal balance in the book is truly superb at the moment. There are very few units, if any, that I wouldn't consider taking at the moment. I think there are 5+ builds that are totally viable at a tournament level.

    I also think that we're in a very nice position in terms of external balence. If we're not one of the very top books, then we're definitely in the tier right below, and to make matters even better, we excel versus Daemons and VC and do decent versus VS and WDG, which I'd consider the top books right now.

    I won't be participating in Cinco unfortunately (holidays and work both occupying to much time, paradoxically ^^), but there's a few interesting lists around. Seems like the Lion Chariot spam is catching on :)
    ETC Team Belgium 2014 Dark Elves
    ETC Team Belgium 2015 Skaven
    ETC Team Belgium 2016 Lizardmen
    ETC Team Belgium 2017 Highborn Elves
    ETC Team Belgium 2019 Highborn Elves
  • The ID LAB team has put together this survey to ask for feedback regarding the Infernal Dwarves Beta book. It is important for the new ID beta version, so please fill it in :)

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    This is an announcement of an official survey, from the ID LAB team, put together by yours truly (with help from others, of course).

    It slices, it dices, it asks for a variety of feedback, it informs the decisions that will be made for Beta 3, possibly THE MOST IMPORTANT BETA! so please, please think through your answers.

    Be honest, don't sugarcoat anything, and above all, tell your friends! Everyone should fill it in! Feedback!

    docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAI…H4FA/viewform?usp=sf_link
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor paints Highborn Elves

    Avatar from: The Silmarillion Project
  • elendor_f wrote:

    Friendly request for more feedback regarding the last ID beta version :)
    Feedback thread: HE Community feedback on the Infernal Dwarves Beta Slimbook
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor paints Highborn Elves

    Avatar from: The Silmarillion Project
  • Hi @KellyW! These are the builds I'd consider really top-level, not just decent or playable (pretty much any good HBE list can compete fine in a tournament imo), but good enough to allow a very good player to compete for first place in a singles tournament or play on the top tables in a team tournament.

    - the Furion build: big SG-star, accompanied by a Dragon or a Griffon, and magic/ranged support (three BT, Flame Phoenix is the staple). Probably the best build/the netlist. It's incredibly solid, and has very few unplayable match-ups (maybe it struggles with an all-out OG infantry spam or the WDG Forsakenspam). Not the best in the world vs armour, but has all the tools to deal with it nevertheless. Excells at pretty much every scenario. BTs and Griffon Prince are amazing versus the powerful single models (think monsters, cowboys,...) that dominate the game these days (you'll see this become a trend). Scrub has replaced the Griffon Lord with an OotFH Dragon, and I think that somehow makes it even better. He scored 90+ points with it in the Social Distancing tournament, and I shamelessly borrowed his list, made it a bit easier to play, and did the same with it in the Ocho. I'm currently experimenting with an Ancient as the big centrepiece, and while it think it's slightly less amazing, it's definitely still good enough to compete in any setting.

    - the chariot spam: @BustaMoovee gets the credit for this one! However, Lion Chariots have been on the rise in the meta for quite a while - and they are amazing. They murder Monsters and Monstrous Beasts/Cav, but are also really good versus big blocks - you charge in, stick quite easily on a LD breaktest with LD10rr (and maybe divination attribute?), and then swipe in with help. This is the archetype I know least about, as it's the only one of the 5 that I haven't tested, but it seems to tick all the boxes: zoning, powerful single models, tools against powerful single models, room for solid shooting/magic support.

    - the Queen's Cavalier list: more gimmicky, perhaps more geared towards an all-or-nothing attempt to make first place in a single day tournament than towards calculated play in a team tournament, but it has so many match-ups in which it cleans the house that it definitely belongs. The popular variant is BSB on Dragon + Griffon Lord + OotFH Dragon, but I prefer Lord on Ancient Dragon + Griffon Lord + Frost Phoenix. It leaves room for double adept on eagle (which synergizes better in terms of magic support than the OotFH), it's probably the only competitive build in which the Frostie can shine, and QC Lord on AD with KingSlayer kills, well, everything!

    - the burn babe burn list: has been flying a bit under the radar, but some people have gotten very good results by chucking a Pyro Master, 30 SG, 20 Queen's Guard, 3 BTs, 2 Fire Phoenixes, and as much chaff as they can find in a list and drowning the opponent in s4 hits. The thing about it is that it has crazy amazing match-ups, while it's bad match-ups aren't that bad: any list has to go through the huge trouble of zoning out the 2 Fire Phoenixes, you have the massive SG beatstick, and enough chaff to stall out the game. Very reliable and solid list.

    - the 5 musketeers: you put 5 Commanders on Griffon, 6 chariots, and 10 Ryma Knights on the table, and you run at the opponent. Invented by the Australians, and my least favorite one by far, but it has a proven tourney record. It has some awful match-ups (DL and VC come to mind), but in the right match-up, it's just a question of shoving the toys forward and rolling dice. Very extreme build, but it has proven to work. The next iteration of the HBE book needs an 0-3 limit on Griffons.

    (- the 300: ask @Herminard. Less serious than the previous builds, but I personally believe that it has added value for any 8 man team)

    That's 6 very different builds, 8 if you count the AD, the Griffon, and the OotFH builds as separate ones, and all highly viable!

    I think that HBE lack the pure OPness of DL and WDG and VS, but they are super solid, and definitely in the tier just below in terms of raw power. What makes em even better, is that they have really good match-ups with most of these top tier armies. HBE are probably the worst match-up for DL; we have the tools to zone out any WDG;, and while the VS match-up is super technical and difficult to play, we have all the tools to do it. The learning curve is still steep as ever, and an army with 30 point models that have res3 and 5+ is always gonna be vulnerable to dice spikes, but we're in an amazing spot at the moment imo: super solid, probably top-5, but not quite one of the uberarmies either.
    ETC Team Belgium 2014 Dark Elves
    ETC Team Belgium 2015 Skaven
    ETC Team Belgium 2016 Lizardmen
    ETC Team Belgium 2017 Highborn Elves
    ETC Team Belgium 2019 Highborn Elves
  • Amazing summary @Arthur ! Thanks for the write up :)

    I noticed a trend in 4/5 builds you listed, and it is heavy reliance on Characters, particularly Flying ones. The one slightly less reliant on them is the Pyro Master + bowline (but it does have 2 Fire Phoenixes on heavy duty).

    I would like to see (in my dreams ahahaha) an HE top build relying on elite infantry (say double blocks, e.g. FW+SM, or FW+LG) + support (with or without the SG block, which is an amazing unit).
    Do you think Characters do their jobs better (more punch in a smaller frontage) and faster (all of our cowboys Fly after all) and that kinda pushes elite combat infantry out, or do they have other shortcomings?
    To be fair I must mention that many lists include a LG block, and we have seen some SMs in Ocho and some FW in Cinco.

    Thanks!
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor paints Highborn Elves

    Avatar from: The Silmarillion Project
  • Arthur wrote:

    (- the 300: ask @Herminard. Less serious than the previous builds, but I personally believe that it has added value for any 8 man team)

    I have made adjustments since. Its sadly not at all a 300 spear list anymore.
    I am also considering if I might need Alchemy more than the Afshad Pyro gatling gun.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • Herminard wrote:

    Arthur wrote:

    (- the 300: ask @Herminard. Less serious than the previous builds, but I personally believe that it has added value for any 8 man team)
    I have made adjustments since. Its sadly not at all a 300 spear list anymore.
    I am also considering if I might need Alchemy more than the Afshad Pyro gatling gun.
    What might I ask is your current list? I started recently running MSU since your success with 300 army.
  • @Arthur

    Thanks! I'm getting ready to play in a very small tournament here in the States and I find it funny that the list I've built matches none of your five! I had five shots and couldn't hit any of them!

    Joking aside, basically, I'm trying to build a list around @elendor_f 's idea/question. Big block of White Lions with Divination Master Mage and MoCT BSB, large spearmen with Ryma Banner and medium Sea Guard unit with some zoning and chaffing units is the basics of the list. Basically this list infantry-based with not very many single models. As best I can tell from reading the forums, I'm definitely bucking the trend/meta by not having several characters/cowboys/monsters. I've played that kind of list before over the years, and I've just decided (stubbornly, I'm beginning to think, as I've had limited success) to see if I can make this kind of list work.

    Thanks again for such a complete answer to my question, really appreciate it.

    Kelly
  • This was one of the HE lists from the Ocho tournament @KellyW, perhaps good for some inspiration :)
    'He opened the battered book. Bits of paper and string indicated his many bookmarks.
    "In fact, men, the general has this to say about ensuring against defeat when outnumbered, out–weaponed and outpositioned. It is..." he turned the page, "Don't Have a Battle."
    "Sounds like a clever man," said Jenkins.'
    Terry Pratchett, Jingo!

    My humble Highborn Elves army blog:
    Elendor paints Highborn Elves

    Avatar from: The Silmarillion Project
  • Cealyne wrote:

    Herminard wrote:

    Arthur wrote:

    (- the 300: ask @Herminard. Less serious than the previous builds, but I personally believe that it has added value for any 8 man team)
    I have made adjustments since. Its sadly not at all a 300 spear list anymore.I am also considering if I might need Alchemy more than the Afshad Pyro gatling gun.
    What might I ask is your current list? I started recently running MSU since your success with 300 army.
    565 - Mage, General, Asfad Scholar, Pyromancy,
    Wizard master, Book of Meladys

    395 - Commander, Master of Canreig Tower,
    Battle Standard, Book of Arcane Mastery

    240 - 11 x 20 Citizen Spears
    225 - 4 x 10 Lion Guard
    4500

    This is the Pyro version that we took to ETC and did decent with.

    I also liked the variation with 9 units of Citizen Spears and 4 units of Lions and 5+5 Eagles.

    Uhm.. I am torn if the Pyro dakka dakka is too good to drop. I would like to do some tests with Alch.
    Hermund Vigerust Endressòn Furu - Savage Sage of the Norse
    Faux-pro player and ETC vagabond.
    Enjoys the company of deluded nerds and women of unquestionably low morale.

    Do not fall to the folly of the best laid of plans - for the mind of man is fickle in the face of the dice gods.
    Give yer high fives where yer opponents dice have been blessed, and in equal give yer handshakes when dice fall in malicious ways.
  • Arthur wrote:

    Hi @KellyW! These are the builds I'd consider really top-level, not just decent or playable (pretty much any good HBE list can compete fine in a tournament imo), but good enough to allow a very good player to compete for first place in a singles tournament or play on the top tables in a team tournament.

    - the Furion build: big SG-star, accompanied by a Dragon or a Griffon, and magic/ranged support (three BT, Flame Phoenix is the staple). Probably the best build/the netlist. It's incredibly solid, and has very few unplayable match-ups (maybe it struggles with an all-out OG infantry spam or the WDG Forsakenspam). Not the best in the world vs armour, but has all the tools to deal with it nevertheless. Excells at pretty much every scenario. BTs and Griffon Prince are amazing versus the powerful single models (think monsters, cowboys,...) that dominate the game these days (you'll see this become a trend). Scrub has replaced the Griffon Lord with an OotFH Dragon, and I think that somehow makes it even better. He scored 90+ points with it in the Social Distancing tournament, and I shamelessly borrowed his list, made it a bit easier to play, and did the same with it in the Ocho. I'm currently experimenting with an Ancient as the big centrepiece, and while it think it's slightly less amazing, it's definitely still good enough to compete in any setting.

    - the chariot spam: @BustaMoovee gets the credit for this one! However, Lion Chariots have been on the rise in the meta for quite a while - and they are amazing. They murder Monsters and Monstrous Beasts/Cav, but are also really good versus big blocks - you charge in, stick quite easily on a LD breaktest with LD10rr (and maybe divination attribute?), and then swipe in with help. This is the archetype I know least about, as it's the only one of the 5 that I haven't tested, but it seems to tick all the boxes: zoning, powerful single models, tools against powerful single models, room for solid shooting/magic support.

    - the Queen's Cavalier list: more gimmicky, perhaps more geared towards an all-or-nothing attempt to make first place in a single day tournament than towards calculated play in a team tournament, but it has so many match-ups in which it cleans the house that it definitely belongs. The popular variant is BSB on Dragon + Griffon Lord + OotFH Dragon, but I prefer Lord on Ancient Dragon + Griffon Lord + Frost Phoenix. It leaves room for double adept on eagle (which synergizes better in terms of magic support than the OotFH), it's probably the only competitive build in which the Frostie can shine, and QC Lord on AD with KingSlayer kills, well, everything!

    - the burn babe burn list: has been flying a bit under the radar, but some people have gotten very good results by chucking a Pyro Master, 30 SG, 20 Queen's Guard, 3 BTs, 2 Fire Phoenixes, and as much chaff as they can find in a list and drowning the opponent in s4 hits. The thing about it is that it has crazy amazing match-ups, while it's bad match-ups aren't that bad: any list has to go through the huge trouble of zoning out the 2 Fire Phoenixes, you have the massive SG beatstick, and enough chaff to stall out the game. Very reliable and solid list.

    - the 5 musketeers: you put 5 Commanders on Griffon, 6 chariots, and 10 Ryma Knights on the table, and you run at the opponent. Invented by the Australians, and my least favorite one by far, but it has a proven tourney record. It has some awful match-ups (DL and VC come to mind), but in the right match-up, it's just a question of shoving the toys forward and rolling dice. Very extreme build, but it has proven to work. The next iteration of the HBE book needs an 0-3 limit on Griffons.

    (- the 300: ask @Herminard. Less serious than the previous builds, but I personally believe that it has added value for any 8 man team)

    That's 6 very different builds, 8 if you count the AD, the Griffon, and the OotFH builds as separate ones, and all highly viable!

    I think that HBE lack the pure OPness of DL and WDG and VS, but they are super solid, and definitely in the tier just below in terms of raw power. What makes em even better, is that they have really good match-ups with most of these top tier armies. HBE are probably the worst match-up for DL; we have the tools to zone out any WDG;, and while the VS match-up is super technical and difficult to play, we have all the tools to do it. The learning curve is still steep as ever, and an army with 30 point models that have res3 and 5+ is always gonna be vulnerable to dice spikes, but we're in an amazing spot at the moment imo: super solid, probably top-5, but not quite one of the uberarmies either.
    Nice write-up! Just wanted to know about the griffon list: When did the Australians start running them? I didn't see any griffon lists before I started running them, although not as many as 5, but I would love to see some feedback or tourney reports from the Australians.
  • I can field this one. The Australian community is both small and isolated, so it's highly unlikely you'll get any of the players using it posting on here. @Arthur has actually played against it twice and seen it in action quite a bit more (he is a UB rat, plus we faced them in an international teams event), so will also be well positioned to comment.

    5x hero on griffon
    3x5 lancers
    3x5 Reavers
    3x1 reaver chariot
    2x5 knights of ryma
    2x1 lion chariot
    (ish)

    The list is a one trick pony, albeit a good trick. It leverage the insane speed on literally every unit in the army (the slowest unit is a lion chariot) and disposable nature of MSU list to create extremely aggro attacks and explosive charges in the weak points of the enemy line. It has zero magic or shooting so is a bit one dimensional for my taste but it does deliver some spectacular wins on occasion (and some crushing defeats in others, leading it to be less stable than I'd originally thought).

    The biggest issue with the list that the users reported was how incredibly fiddly it is. As a glass cannon list which relies on getting the charge there can be a tedious amount of positioning, angle checking, measuring, remeasuring, opponent confirmations, etc. The players reported it was close to unusable on UB which is already a little more time consuming (their longest reported game went for 6 hours from memory).

    I don't like the list at all... (sorry dudes). It's way too gimmicky and based on what I feel is a loophole of being able to spam under costed griffins. On top of that I don't think it makes for very good games, you either obliterate your opponent who is totally unprepared for it or end up getting frustrated because someone brings the rock to your scissors, or after spending 4 hours setting up your attack you make a minor positioning mistake and everything unravels. Always gonna be frustrating for one side or the other.
  • Some good lists here, But most are spamming one thing or another. It seems that 9th Age is slipping into the old berated spam of the other game we don't mention here. That being said, we don't see Heros'/Monsters much doing most of the heavy lifting either, or will we?

    I posted a detailed Fleet Officer build in the Army build thread.
    It seems no one is interested in this particular Honor.
    Wondering if it is just too costly or gimmicky for consideration at this iteration of our book.
    Or, is there just no build to compliment this Honor to consider using it?

    Failure is not an option.
  • Calm down. Most lists are far from spammy and this is just one example - and thankfully it hasn't taken the world by storm / blows up a lot.
    In fact in 18 years of playing the game we are in one of the least spammy eras I can remember.

    Re Fleet Officer. It has been discussed to death I'm afraid. Check the pages of the main HBE forum and you'll find at least one long thread about it. The honour itself is too expensive, the sloop mount is too expensive and counts towards character cap, and it just doesn't bring anything new to the army that can't be done cheaper or better by other stuff. Needs a 100 points drop or honour redesign to start being taken IMO.