Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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  • HighBornAaron wrote:

    Hi guys, I'm fairly new & also not very good so please spare me my naviety!

    Why is the HE Heredity spell considered so good? Is saving 2 wounds per turn really that huge?
    Because saving wounds, for example, on griffon prince or swinging combat resolution by 4 etc is really strong imo.

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    Can anyone show me an Hereditary Spell that does NOT seem OP?
    se, bh, koe, ong from top of my head, if not like more than half of the hereditary spells.
  • Ciara wrote:

    HighBornAaron wrote:

    Hi guys, I'm fairly new & also not very good so please spare me my naviety!

    Why is the HE Heredity spell considered so good? Is saving 2 wounds per turn really that huge?
    Because saving wounds, for example, on griffon prince or swinging combat resolution by 4 etc is really strong imo.
    Especially since HBE wounds are very expensive. Consider a Lion Guard unit that loses 7 wounds in a combat, now only loses 3 wounds and might thus win instead of lose the combat. If you compare it to other spells with this effect e.g. Healing Waters, Favour has the Advantage of affecting multiple units. Flexibility like this are often times very strong.
    Don't forget to bring a towel!
  • HighBornAaron wrote:

    Hi guys, I'm fairly new & also not very good so please spare me my naviety!

    Why is the HE Heredity spell considered so good? Is saving 2 wounds per turn really that huge?
    It's basically incredibly versatile and has a very good effect.

    First - coverage. Most defensive spells have to be targeted on a single unit or have a small area (healing waters, scrying), which makes planning for them hard, as they are basically deterrents. A single casting of FoM allows your mage to decide on the spot which unit to defend based on needs and priorities. That alone is a big advantage over others. Even more - with a single casting of this spell you can affect different combats reliably, which is something that very few spells can do.

    Second - the way it provides defense. Other spells, like the ones mentioned before, protect against specific sources of damage - the enemy can bypass them in several ways - like using options that don't require to hit rolls such as impact hits, or negating fortitude with flaming attacks. Of course, the opponent might not have them available, but there are options - and, there is always the option of not engaging with the protected unit, something that you just can't do with FoM, as any other potential target will most likely be in range of the effect as well. FoM will always be able to handle whatever comes its way.

    Third - the effect itself. On top of the protection, reducing wounds can allow you to swing a combat up to 4 points of combat resolution, no question asked. In some cases, that's comparable to what a +1 Str buff could give you in combat, and on any, it's a huge swing that mostly stacks with other effects. Or avoid a panic test. Or avoid getting a mage exposed due to his bunker getting decimated. Or make your big flier survive one turn more.

    The fact that you can measure how much impact you need and "save" based on the flow of the game is huge - the opportunity cost of casting the spell is so small that pretty much there is very little reason not to cast it every turn you can. There might be cases where you may not want to cast it, if there are other spells that are uniquely ideal for the situation - but very rarely will it be a bad idea to cast it. And nearly always it's perfect to draw dispel dice.
  • Ciara wrote:

    HighBornAaron wrote:

    Hi guys, I'm fairly new & also not very good so please spare me my naviety!

    Why is the HE Heredity spell considered so good? Is saving 2 wounds per turn really that huge?
    Because saving wounds, for example, on griffon prince or swinging combat resolution by 4 etc is really strong imo.

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    Can anyone show me an Hereditary Spell that does NOT seem OP?
    se, bh, koe, ong from top of my head, if not like more than half of the hereditary spells.
    Ahh okay.. but the spell does just stop two wounds rather then 4? I thought it only stopped more then one if it is a multiple wound thing
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  • New

    Ciara wrote:

    HighBornAaron wrote:

    Hi guys, I'm fairly new & also not very good so please spare me my naviety!

    Why is the HE Heredity spell considered so good? Is saving 2 wounds per turn really that huge?
    Because saving wounds, for example, on griffon prince or swinging combat resolution by 4 etc is really strong imo.

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    Can anyone show me an Hereditary Spell that does NOT seem OP?
    se, bh, koe, ong from top of my head, if not like more than half of the hereditary spells.
    I've read these, they seem pretty strong for those races, and easier to cast too.

    So, let me get this straight, HBE is SUPPOSED be Magic Strong, so when they get a strong magic ability it is Broken?
    FoM is high cost(10+) to get up, minimum of 3 dice, usually 4 to be fairly certain. Then, if successful, their opponents throws up to 5 dice to dispel it or have their Binding Scroll to stop it.

    Serious Question;
    Are HBE to be strong in Magic ability as advertised or not?
    With FoM up;
    A maximum of two Veil Tokens maybe discarded each phase for this purpose.

    Fizzle me this Batman;
    Do opponents have the tools to stop it if by chance we can actually get the required die roll (10+) required?
    If they prepare in advance to do so with 1 or 2 Binding Scrolls, so they can butcher R3 models for at least 2 turns, (4 rounds) of combat.

    Lastly, Let's not forget the" Token Tax". A couple of Tokens usually is not hard to come by, but for the full potential it would require 8 Tokens for the full coverage of Charges/Movement (through terrain), Magic, Missile Fire, and Melee including any pursuit/flee through terrain features.



    Darn; Fizzled again!
    Failure is not an option.
  • New

    jaith1 wrote:

    @kompatybilijny
    I personally think your suggestion to let Flame Wardens and HWotF characters to use Hereditary after special saves to be pretty reasonable.
    Eh, that depends on what you're dealing with. But overall, that unit is potentially going to resist a tad too much that way.

    F'rex,
    12 wounds with AP2 becomes (on average) 6 after saves, which become 2 if you use Meladys. Plus, some armies (WDG, KoE) are forced to use low model counts, which means their attacks/wounds are much more painful when discounted. F'rex, Warrior Knights would go: 16 attacks into 8 hits, 7 wounds, 3-4 after saves, then zero with Meladys if you so choose. Similar process applies to Cowboys and single models, often giving the ability to completely blank them.

    FWIW, I think that change was good and warranted.

    AlexCat wrote:

    I wonder, whether the current Favour of Meladys will survive the LAB process.
    I doubt it, and hope it doesn't. Mechanically, any entry that requires that much qualification and rules-lawyering should be redesigned. No one thing should have that large a complexity budget. From an "army variety" standpoint, the project has stated on more than one occasion that HE and DE aren't supposed to be "Mirror Images" like their inspirations. So having our Hereditary spells do Exactly That seems less likely (also helps that the DE one doesn't need anywhere near as much explanation/qualification).

    While I wouldn't be surprised if some form of the spell's effect persisted into LAB (e.g., making Ring of the Pearl Throne allow the character to discard a veil token to negate 1 wound per phase), I'd be surprised if the spell is Copy-Pasta'd that way.
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    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    I've read these, they seem pretty strong for those races, and easier to cast too.
    Rerolling 1s to wound or soft cover (se) isnt pretty strong, fear, terror nad -1ld (bh) isnt pretty strong when its useless against itp models and so on. If path spells are picked more often than hereditary spell then this hereditary isnt pretty strong. You are only right about being easier to cast but making forest under your unit with 1 dice wont win you battle in contrary to FoM.

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    So, let me get this straight, HBE is SUPPOSED be Magic Strong, so when they get a strong magic ability it is Broken?
    FoM is high cost(10+) to get up, minimum of 3 dice, usually 4 to be fairly certain. Then, if successful, their opponents throws up to 5 dice to dispel it or have their Binding Scroll to stop it.
    Did you actually read the discussion? We are not discussing whether FoM is broken or not, its just really strong actually, but anyway we are discussing allowing it after special saves and if that would be broken, like in the past it probably was (broken) that way.

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    Serious Question;
    Are HBE to be strong in Magic ability as advertised or not?
    Spoiler: they actually are strong in magic phase.


    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    Fizzle me this Batman;
    Do opponents have the tools to stop it if by chance we can actually get the required die roll (10+) required?
    If they prepare in advance to do so with 1 or 2 Binding Scrolls, so they can butcher R3 models for at least 2 turns, (4 rounds) of combat.
    I dont understand your question here. If your argument is "just dispel it bro" then okay i guess? If someone bind your spell then its pretty darn strong spell with biggest influence during game, right?

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    Lastly, Let's not forget the" Token Tax". A couple of Tokens usually is not hard to come by, but for the full potential it would require 8 Tokens for the full coverage of Charges/Movement (through terrain), Magic, Missile Fire, and Melee including any pursuit/flee through terrain features.
    What? Obviously what are you talking about is not possible. To be at full potential with FoM you need to store 3 tokens and have banner of becalming in roster and thats it. You cant go more than than.
  • New

    The spell is NOT hard to cast.

    First of all the casting value means very little in HbE book, when it is reduced by 1 for every mage. Having a master mage on top makes it an 8+ spell to be cast successful. And for sure this spell is worth to invest 3-4 dices.

    Depending on the urgency you need it, you can cast it first and propably draw out a lot of dispell dices or keep 3 dices to cast it last, and force the oponent to choose to let spells go to keep dispell dices for the important spell.
  • New

    Aenarion43 wrote:

    jaith1 wrote:

    @kompatybilijny
    I personally think your suggestion to let Flame Wardens and HWotF characters to use Hereditary after special saves to be pretty reasonable.
    Eh, that depends on what you're dealing with. But overall, that unit is potentially going to resist a tad too much that way.
    F'rex,
    12 wounds with AP2 becomes (on average) 6 after saves, which become 2 if you use Meladys. Plus, some armies (WDG, KoE) are forced to use low model counts, which means their attacks/wounds are much more painful when discounted. F'rex, Warrior Knights would go: 16 attacks into 8 hits, 7 wounds, 3-4 after saves, then zero with Meladys if you so choose. Similar process applies to Cowboys and single models, often giving the ability to completely blank them.

    FWIW, I think that change was good and warranted.
    okay, 12 wounds becomes 2 wounds, but right now those 12 wounds become 4 wounds (12-4= 8/2=4) and this strategy currently isn’t overbearingly powerful as far as I’m concerned. We are talking a difference of 2 combat resolution, assuming hereditary is actually active.

    This combination is too hard of a counter to low model count armies? I could take that same argument and say dryads are too powerful then, because SE have access to two +Res buffs.

    WotDG have so many tools to deal with a FW block. Aside from 3 sources of divine attacks in their character section, Spiked Shield Warriors (core unit) have a surprisingly decent chance of grinding down Flame wardens, point for point…

    And for KoE, Grail Knights will slaughter FW on the charge, and even have a decent chance of grinding down FW if they don’t get the charge. Admittedly, Favour Of Meladys does a decent job of mitigating the charge in this scenario.

    Without a doubt our hereditary is strong, but I don’t think Flame Wardens are ‘2 combat res away’ from being broken. If that were the case, then they would probably be much more popular than they are now…

    I’m not going to say Flame Wardens are unplayable in their current state, I’ve had decent success with them when they have character support (sliver princes, or HWotF BsB). And the original suggestion was for the Hereditary to work after special saves only for Flame Wardens (not Griffons or phoenixes).
    The change in font size of this post is purely accidental: my phone is stupid, and I am too stupid to fix it.
  • New

    Flame wardens are one of the most reliable defensive unit. Costly, but they are good defensively against everything.

    And they were clearly over the top when the hereditary worked after the special safe. So the change on the hereditary was ok to exclude special safes before. Still a spell I take everytime when I play HbE, and there are only few rounds of combat where it is not wirth to be casted. (in early turns when oponent has no ranged output).
  • New

    You don´t target a specific unit, so you use the spell where it is needed the most. Does it matter to reduce 4 wounds on a big block of spears...sure, when it is the only important fight. If there are more, propably avoiding 4 wounds on sword masters or 2 wounds on a unit of rhyma knights is more important. You can decide on spot, and not in the magic pahse before where to apply the spell.

    Triggering the spells ability before special safes was just a workaround to have the spell be a lot better on all things with a special safe.

    Currently it is one of the best spells in the game, so no need to talk it worse than it is. In most cases it is perfect to have the spell active. Sure you need some tokens on top to benefit from it. It generates 1, and you could for an additional investment steal one from oponent each round. Works great together.
  • New

    For some reason you don't get my sarcasm on a few of these points. On the Token Tax point, if you can understand the part where the FoM spell can be used on' . A maximum of two Veil Tokens maybe discarded each phase for this purpose, (Each Phase of the turn!) then you can see the full Potential of this Spell.

    And yes, I am enjoying the discussion, more than you know. I think we think differently about things, and I'll leave it at that.

    Failure is not an option.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Borjnfer Wraith ().

  • New

    You guys do realize that if FoM was changed to allow special saves, then flame wardens would probably be reduced to a 5+ aegis save right? Of course this would come with a point decrease. Heck, the unit could even go to a 6+ aegis depending on hose the rest of the book gets changed.

    It's about an entire army book LAB. Not just change 1 rule then point out every bad interaction with existing units. It's what you gotta wrap your head around when designing an army book.
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    Sincere apologies to your plight with my posts. I will endeavor to shorten them with the delete you suggested, (I did not know thank you). As to the pictures... well I like them, they help to drive my point home, and some others like that I take the time to do it as well.

    I appreciate that you take the time to read my thoughts, I hope that what I share continues to help in this creative process.
    Sincerely,
    BW
    Failure is not an option.
  • New

    @'Peacemaker

    Well if the agis does go down then I hope they consider giving them either Essence of Mithril, (Wearer’s Armour is set to 5 and cannot be improved beyond this). or Dragonforged Heavy Armor(The wearer gainsAegis (2+, against Flaming Attacks) and Aegis (6+), and automatically fails all Fortitude Saves.) at the very least.

    I think the major compliant about the FoM is that it negates the wounds taken for Combat Resolution. I suggest that these unsaved wounds should count for CR even though the wounds get ignored as a result of the effect of FoM.
    I say give them what they have earned in Combat, at least the affected unit will hopefully retain a rank anyway to offset the result by one point.
    Failure is not an option.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Borjnfer Wraith ().