Some Beast vs Beast Rules Queries...

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    • Some Beast vs Beast Rules Queries...

      Morning all!

      Couple queries came up from a recent Beasts vs Beasts game and thought I'd get them off my chest...:

      - 2 Players have ambushers. Who declares ambushers first, is it alternating?
      - 2 Players have units with 'Start of the battle' abilities (Centaurs being drunk/sober) - who declares first, is it alternating?
      - Centaurs Drunk/Sober - The rulebook says you do Scouts, then vanguards, then start of the battle abilities. Centaurs sober gives vanguard but happens after the vanguard step. Mistake that needs correcting?
      - Ld Bomb - Can someone other than Fred (Who wrote the rules and uses it...!) please give their affirmation that the Evocation/Jabberslythe double stacks to a potential -5Ld (Jabber being in range of both general and unit double stacks for -2, then fear, then the evo spell for -2.)

      Ta!
    • ukrocky wrote:

      - 2 Players have ambushers. Who declares ambushers first, is it alternating?
      Ctrl + F = ambush (1st sentence)
      Doesn't state if its alternating. So I would assuming same way as when you have multiple different casters

      ukrocky wrote:

      - 2 Players have units with 'Start of the battle' abilities (Centaurs being drunk/sober) - who declares first, is it alternating?
      Ctrl + F = Simultaneous Effects
      Doesn't state if its alternating. So I would assuming same way as when you have multiple different casters

      ukrocky wrote:

      - Centaurs Drunk/Sober - The rulebook says you do Scouts, then vanguards, then start of the battle abilities. Centaurs sober gives vanguard but happens after the vanguard step. Mistake that needs correcting?
      Probably an oversight

      ukrocky wrote:

      - Ld Bomb - Can someone other than Fred (Who wrote the rules and uses it...!) please give their affirmation that the Evocation/Jabberslythe double stacks to a potential -5Ld (Jabber being in range of both general and unit double stacks for -2, then fear, then the evo spell for -2.
      Jabberwock: it's clearly written in the rules you can't double stack itself
      Fear: it's clearly written in the rules you can't double stack itself
      Evocation of Souls: it's clearly written in the rules you can't double stack itself
      You can stack Jabberwock + Fear + Evocation of Souls for -3 seems to be the most
      :HE: Beware of the panda....with big guns
    • two jabber do not stack, if that´s what you are asking?

      I think what the posts before are pointing at is the stacking of jabber when both the general´s unit and the unit you have to take a test on (which is within 12 to general) are within range of one single jabber.

      In that case for sure your general has LD-1 from jabber aura. You can than choose to use generals leadership than with the testing unit (this is a transferred fix LD-value). This new base LD on the unit now can again be modified by the jabber-aura.

      To get it to the max (say general has LD 10, the unit testing LD 5): generals unit is in contact with a birar-beast during this situation (so -1LD from fear) and the jabber we are talking abput is in contact with the testing unit (fear as well). On top of that Whispers of the Veil is in effect on generals unit and the jabber is effected by evocation-trait. in that special maxed out case the general gains -1 LD from jabber, -1 LD from fear, -1 LD from evocation trait, -1LD from whispers. LD 6 general left. This value is transferred to the unit (choice of the player to use generals LD) now. This starts at LD6 before modificators apply. Their LD 6 now get -1 from jabber, -1 from evocation-trait, -1 from fear. LD3 left.

      Sounds complicated, but ruleswise this is perfectly clear (although a rare case to happen that way ;))


      pk-ng wrote:

      Jabberwock: it's clearly written in the rules you can't double stack itself
      Fear: it's clearly written in the rules you can't double stack itself
      Evocation of Souls: it's clearly written in the rules you can't double stack itself
      You can stack Jabberwock + Fear + Evocation of Souls for -3 seems to be the most
      agree -3 is max (-4 with whispers) on ONE UNIT. since generals LD is a special case of transferred LD you can definitely push this to a "-7", which is in this case not a stack at all, just the fact that generals inspiring presence is not a modifier.
      WTC OPEN 2020 - 25.-26.04.2020 in Amsterdam
      an official T9A event
    • To get it to the max (say general has LD 10, the unit testing LD 5): generals unit is in contact with a birar-beast during this situation (so -1LD from fear) and the jabber we are talking abput is in contact with the testing unit (fear as well). On top of that Whispers of the Veil is in effect on generals unit and the jabber is effected by evocation-trait. in that special maxed out case the general gains -1 LD from jabber, -1 LD from fear, -1 LD from evocation trait, -1LD from whispers. LD 6 general left. This value is transferred to the unit (choice of the player to use generals LD) now. This starts at LD6 before modificators apply. Their LD 6 now get -1 from jabber, -1 from evocation-trait, -1 from fear. LD3 left.
      Seems to me a too big benefit, even when it only happens sometimes, for fear and the stacking of modifications.
      I don´t doubt that it is viable and possible now, but then the rules of fear and the jabberwooks/Evocation should be revisited. Because exactly such things are the reason some players stopped to play warhammer, and will not start 9th age when the rules include some extreme things, that are only seen when you know them in every single detail. Ld modifications should not stack to each other, and for sure not when there is a value tranfered via general it should not have a double effect.
    • i think you cannot compare doom&darkness with the combination of jabber and evocation.

      to have -3 on a unit like with old doom and darkness you need a jabber within 6" a unit with fear in contact and either whispers or trait successfully cast in the magic phase. to make this happen everything has to work well and since you do not buy massive amounts of combat-units (mage and two jabber is a massive investment) there needs to be some kind of effect that can make enemy-units disappear. In 2/3 games the combo does not work in any way either way, because the enemy either disallows the jabbers to find a place to charge/land where he needs to be and of this works out, he wil dispell these two spells you need to make it really good.

      although i use it atm i do not think it is an issue or even broken at all. It´s good in some matchups where enemy has no ITP-stuff. Against undead, daemons and even HBE it´s completely useless btw .... you can marchblock a bit better and that´s it.

      I think if you have a combo that can work pretty well, but needs so many things working together, than it is perfectly fine to have a massive effect. you have to build you whole game around it and is all abput movement, tactics and strategy. Imo a very healthy thing ... everything but extreme (although the LD-bomb is something only viable for DL, VC and BH).
      WTC OPEN 2020 - 25.-26.04.2020 in Amsterdam
      an official T9A event
    • Not a slight against you Fred, I'm sure it does require tactics to use due to positioning, but some armies truly rely on Ld (Skaven come to mind) and can't compete heavily in denial of space in the late game. So, yeah. I just think that as a rules query and intention of the rule being played this way someone who isn't invested in an army that uses it should be ruling, if that makes sense? :)