Pinned Quick Starter errors thread

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    • I recently did a video about the Quickstarter, and in preparation I found a few errors. I sure most if not all have already been picked up upon, but in case they haven't:

      Page 7, The Unit Entry, last bullet: Contains the strange text: "(no extra paragraph just how it is)?"
      Page 9, Unit Boundary etc: Move the last paragraph to the next heading below.
      Page 10, Player Turn: An extra " sign?
      Page 13: "Deploying Units" heading should be in the second column.
      Page 15: The last half of a sentence from "Move Chargers" has to be moved back to page 14
      Page 15, Charge Range: I would add a reminder that distance is measured in a straight line. It is easy to forget for new players.
      Page 21: Maybe change from "In the Shooting Phase, each unit with Shooting Weapons can shoot once per Shooting Phase." to "In your Shooting Phase, each of your units with Shooting Weapons can shoot once."
      Page 23 Combat Sequence, step 1: Maybe add a reference to the Attack Chapter

      Rules Clarification

      Lord of the Hobby


      Empire of Sonnstahl Blog, including links to my other blogs
      The 9th Wiki, a community wiki for the official 9th Age background
      T9A: Skirmish Campaigns
    • I made a separate thread for discussion. Some kind moderator ( @Stunt perhaps?) could move post #122 and onwards into this thread:
      Some thoughts on the Quick Starter - Move Model Rules to Basic Rules

      Rules Clarification

      Lord of the Hobby


      Empire of Sonnstahl Blog, including links to my other blogs
      The 9th Wiki, a community wiki for the official 9th Age background
      T9A: Skirmish Campaigns
    • Remy77077 wrote:

      I may possibly badger some of you guys for answers to some of these if I get to playing some QS games before there's any revisions out...

      So it's my painting vs your updating.. The race is on! :D
      Just a poke in this thread to say... My painting is coming along nicely, and I'm in the finishing stages of the last unit for the 2nd QS army I'm painting now, and then just a few characters to finish it off....

      Sooo... any updates on these rules &/or clarifications soon would be really great :D
      (I didn't really want to win this race! :D )
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)
    • I was just watching @Mad 'At s video and realised the rule "A Character can only join a unit if it has the same base size as the unit’s models" actually solves a few of my queries. I'd not noticed that before.
      This seems particularly mean for the poor OnG though, no hiding your Goblin Witchdoctor in the Orc unit :/
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)
    • Remy77077 wrote:

      I was just watching @Mad 'At s video and realised the rule "A Character can only join a unit if it has the same base size as the unit’s models" actually solves a few of my queries. I'd not noticed that before.
      This seems particularly mean for the poor OnG though, no hiding your Goblin Witchdoctor in the Orc unit :/
      Yes thats a compromise for keeping it easy.
      Still every character at least has one unit to hide

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


      The post was edited 1 time, last by DJWoodelf ().

    • Ok guys well it seems I've won the race! Two QS armies made and painted and ready to go soon!... (photos soon too).

      But this means all my rules queries below are going to stump me if I actually try and play, especially as I am hoping to introduce new players, I really want to be clear I know how to play properly.

      There have been a few answers in this thread, and some of the things I am ok at dealing with myself for my own games, even though I think they could be clearer in the actual rules. So I've cut out everything I can deal with ok, but below are the queries left that still confuse me that I would really appreciate an answer on...

      Note: I actually have a little bit more time, because I want to make some new terrain to play battles with too (plus my old wargame tabletop has gotten a bit damaged over the years in storage, so I may need to do a new one of those first too! :( )

      ===

      pg9 Models and Base Contact / pg 17 Movement
      It's not clear if you can or cannot move through your own models

      pg.12
      If I'm reading this right, Hindering Terrain has no effect on the movement of 20x20 or 25x25 based troops at all? So it does nothing other than offer cover and give broken ranks to Infantry models?
      (I'm just very surprised as I am used to units being slowed down by woods, ruins, marshes etc).




      pg.15
      What I feel like the whole section is maybe missing is how you do calculate the minimum distance needed to roll to complete the charge? Obviously in a straight line it is simple, but it appears looking at the Wheel rules in conjunction with these rules, this could get pretty complex to calculate at times when the dice roll is very close to the distance to go when also needing a wheel.

      I'm also left wondering how you resolve a case where a unit rolls JUST enough to clip an enemy unit, whereas if they had more movement to wheel more etc they could've gotten more models into contact - I assume that's a valid charge still?



      pg.17 Rally Fleeing Units
      Can you rally and immediately cast spells even though you can't shoot?



      pg.17 Advance Move
      From reading this I believe that if a unit moves Backward or Sidestep must do so in a straight line ie: no 'backwards wheel' allowed. It might be worth making this more explicit by adding the words "in a straight line" to Backwards and Sidestep.



      pg.25 Combat Results
      Is it correct and intended that the bonuses for Charge and Flank/Rear apply no matter the size of the unit involved? So even small units or individual characters would get these bonuses too?

      Rank Bonus:
      Is it correct that there is no concept of 'complete ranks' here, and even a single model creates a whole rank for a unit to count here (also going by the example on page 9 of a unit, that also has an incomplete 3rd rank but just says it has 3 ranks).


      pg.29 Removing Casualties
      I maybe confused here, but because casualties in a unit are always removed from the rear ranks, Agility will only affect the numbers who can fight in a melee combat if this reduces a unit down to below 2 ranks - as then models that could have been attacked may get removed before they can fight. Is this right?

      I think a few examples of Removing Casualties would be extremely helpful to clarify things. Perhaps a unit in a single line that is being reduced by shooting in one phase, and then by Magic in the next phase. Then also a unit in a single line that is being hit on the flank by an enemy unit and taking casualties, as this would also help be an example for the 'Dropping out of Combat' rules.


      pg.30 Characters
      Movement:
      As both sides can always move their characters around at the start of the melee phase, who does this in which order needs to be clarified I think, especially as it could well be the case that one side has a character that would rather avoid being attacked by the other one! Or they just want to keep the option to attack enemy RnF and not be 'blocked' from getting into base-to-base contact by a larger base sized character model - which I believe is possible from reading the pg 24 Allocating Attacks rules.

      It's also unclear if a character can always move into a rear or 2nd rank for example to ensure they are fighting in a combat - as the other rules seem to say they must always be positioned in the front rank of the unit.
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Remy77077 ().

    • Aside - I've noticed this part of the forum does not appear in the general forum "Last 10 posts" part... I wonder why not. It's no wonder many players here seem to overlook the QS rules.
      Given their prominence on the new website, T9A team really need to get this sorted out asap imo! (I'm trying to help!)
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)
    • Remy77077 wrote:

      ...

      ===

      pg9 Models and Base Contact / pg 17 Movement
      It's not clear if you can or cannot move through your own models

      You cant


      pg.12
      If I'm reading this right, Hindering Terrain has no effect on the movement of 20x20 or 25x25 based troops at all? So it does nothing other than offer cover and give broken ranks to Infantry models?
      (I'm just very surprised as I am used to units being slowed down by woods, ruins, marshes etc).

      it does nothing else


      pg.15
      What I feel like the whole section is maybe missing is how you do calculate the minimum distance needed to roll to complete the charge? Obviously in a straight line it is simple, but it appears looking at the Wheel rules in conjunction with these rules, this could get pretty complex to calculate at times when the dice roll is very close to the distance to go when also needing a wheel.

      I'm also left wondering how you resolve a case where a unit rolls JUST enough to clip an enemy unit, whereas if they had more movement to wheel more etc they could've gotten more models into contact - I assume that's a valid charge still?

      Need to check how the rule is written




      pg.17 Rally Fleeing Units
      Can you rally and immediately cast spells even though you can't shoot?

      yes





      pg.17 Advance Move
      From reading this I believe that if a unit moves Backward or Sidestep must do so in a straight line ie: no 'backwards wheel' allowed. It might be worth making this more explicit by adding the words "in a straight line" to Backwards and Sidestep.

      Yes, only in straight line


      pg.25 Combat Results
      Is it correct and intended that the bonuses for Charge and Flank/Rear apply no matter the size of the unit involved? So even small units or individual characters would get these bonuses too?

      Rank Bonus:
      Is it correct that there is no concept of 'complete ranks' here, and even a single model creates a whole rank for a unit to count here (also going by the example on page 9 of a unit, that also has an incomplete 3rd rank but just says it has 3 ranks).

      Both correct, to keep rules easy



      pg.29 Removing Casualties
      I maybe confused here, but because casualties in a unit are always removed from the rear ranks, Agility will only affect the numbers who can fight in a melee combat if this reduces a unit down to below 2 ranks - as then models that could have been attacked may get removed before they can fight. Is this right?

      I think a few examples of Removing Casualties would be extremely helpful to clarify things. Perhaps a unit in a single line that is being reduced by shooting in one phase, and then by Magic in the next phase. Then also a unit in a single line that is being hit on the flank by an enemy unit and taking casualties, as this would also help be an example for the 'Dropping out of Combat' rules.

      That would make the rules too long.
      Maybe in whatever other document.




      pg.30 Characters
      Movement:
      As both sides can always move their characters around at the start of the melee phase, who does this in which order needs to be clarified I think, especially as it could well be the case that one side has a character that would rather avoid being attacked by the other one! Or they just want to keep the option to attack enemy RnF and not be 'blocked' from getting into base-to-base contact by a larger base sized character model - which I believe is possible from reading the pg 24 Allocating Attacks rules.

      It's also unclear if a character can always move into a rear or 2nd rank for example to ensure they are fighting in a combat - as the other rules seem to say they must always be positioned in the front rank of the unit.


      Need to check in detail how the rules are written.
      If unsure you can assume that only what is written does actually count...not what you assume based on the FB rules.

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • One other thing I noticed in the QS rules lately.

      pg.12 Terrain
      Impassable Terrain

      Gives the example of a "bottomless pit" ... but also all Impassable Terrain blocks all line of sight in the rules, so this seems like a very odd example to give for this. For simplicity's sake I would just remove that example from the text personally.
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)
    • I've also put up a couple of QS Battle Reports on the Hobby Hub section, but I will link them here. I figure they maybe useful to describe a new player experience for pointers as to where the rules maybe need more emphasis etc?

      Also, there are a few rules questions within them for the QS. I can reproduce them here if that's helpful for anyone, but the questions will make more sense in the context of the batreps. But just let me know and I'll paste the relevant stuff into here too.

      OnG vs EoS:
      agoners.wordpress.com/2019/08/…kstarter-battle-report-1/

      EoS vs HBE:
      agoners.wordpress.com/2019/08/…kstarter-battle-report-2/
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)
    • i say you should NOT repost them here! dont give us shortcuts, the path through the repirts is most enjoyable! : )

      thanks for the report and all the issues you raise. as a QS enthusiast, here's my (completely unofficial) opinions:

      - impassable blocks line of sight for hills as well: indeed that's the spirit. new players (with "no baggage") had no problems accessing this interpretation by reading the rules. if you play against a newcomer, could you please keep an eye on this and see how (s)he interprets it?

      - characters do replace RNF models, so you can make nice unit trays and have no hanging model in the back. so yes, Rob would have lost one shot

      - hindering terrain can cause panic, in my book. you're right, this might require some commenting: the direction of flee movement is away from closest enemy (p. 29), but it is not clear that wounds (and thus tests) are taken as soon as the model moves in(to) the terrain (p. 12). i dont know how to express it succinctly, tho...

      i'll try and read report 2 and react to the rules questions, then when im back home i'll try and revive my wordpress account so i can give more opinions in the blog itself. keep up the great job and... welcome back! : )


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    • alright, these reports are cutely addictive, so i'll read battle 2 right away and try addressing the rules issues.

      - archers on hill see a forest, handgunners behind the forest, wizard behind the handgunners. they can shoot at the wizard, apply the cover modifier from the forest. as you said, models on a hill ignore intervening models, so they wouldnt have ignored the forest (it's not a model), but they would have ignored your handgunners (they are models).

      - "We only on this turn also realised how the cover from the woods didn’t apply if you were shooting out from them – because that is only mentioned later in the QS shooting rules and not in the terrain section"... oi! page 12, we say that units in hindering terrain benefit from cover, meaning they get a -1 when being shot at ; )


      - the multicombat flee pictures are gold! we need more of this stuff - it's both epic and informative! ze could provide clear rules, with complete coverage of all cases, including terrain. this is what we do in the Full Rulebook (§15.H), where pursuit rules are one page longer than the entire QS Melee phase rules! my feeling is that, at this level, we should encourage players to agree among them, or maybe use the good old 4+ approach for tough questions. what would you guys think?





      to conclude, i'll allow myself a single non-rules comment: even between the same two players, QS games can be hugely different, depending on whether you play it safe (your game1) or if you're a bit reckless (game2). i take this as a good thing... and i can't wait for your next OnG - HbE match with Rob! get some more games in, see how a larger number of armies fare against each other (maybe you can use the proxying approach of the early @PTG - Hyper-G and @PTG-Lucky-Sixes ), and then we'll talk balance again ; )


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    • Thanks so much for reading and replying @piteglio ! :D
      I really appreciate your thoughts. I hope it's ok to discuss in this thread...

      I personally agree with all your unofficial rules interpretations too & will play that way from now on unless someone says otherwise - but hopefully this points out possibly vague areas in the rules for when they are updated/finalised. Hopefully it helps official people to make clarifications too.



      I totally agree that not understanding how Woods cover worked properly was entirely our fault too! :D
      Again, this maybe an issue of previous baggage as woods are SO different to how I'm used to (couldn't see through them in the games I used to play, also would really slow movement down for everyone) that it's easy for me to get muddled up with old ideas. Actually I should have added this to my "Likes" section really though - Woods being actually interesting tactically in T9A QS and not just a "no go area" for anything that isn't Skirmishers etc is a nice thing. I also liked how they give Infantry mostly a buff compared to cavalry too, as Cav is far more affected by them than Infantry overall.

      Re: the multi-combat melee stuff. This all worked out pretty cleanly for us in the end. But I do think there could be just a couple of extra lines added to help clear up the potential corner cases in extreme examples like this too. Like making it clear pursuers ALSO move in the order the dice were rolled perhaps in the order that fleeing units moved? ie: repeat this rule but for pursuers:
      "If several units are fleeing from the same combat, the units move in the same order as their flee distance was rolled (the player controlling
      the units chooses in which order they roll the flee distance)."
      And then something like, if they pursue into a unit that was fleeing from the SAME combat, but hadn't been caught by other pursuers, then that fleeing unit flees another 2D6" and is moved further to clear the pursuing unit if that 2D6 distance still wasn't enough?


      Rob lives quite a long way from me in the UK sadly, so it maybe a while before our next games... but I will try and get some other new people to play the game soon too :) (ideally against each other too, rather than vs me, and then I can focus on helping with the rules etc when I'm not also playing). When I get Veil of the Ages, I will use that as an introduction too ofc, looking forward to that :D Even if it's just for 10-15 minutes before playing a QS, I think it would be useful for people that are totally new to anything like this.

      I also totally agree my balance points are 100% with a pinch of salt. In other games, I would get annoyed by new player making these kinds of "silly claims" too! So I must admit I'm sort of saying them here to run with the old adage - the fastest way to get someone to respond is to make an incorrect claim on the internet.. ;) So basically I'm really asking, tell me why I'm wrong - which you already have to some extent there. I definitely agree in the same situation, with better play and better understanding of the rules, EoS could've won vs HBE... but I still eye those Knights of Ryma and Orc Eadbashers with suspicion - just like I do the Scorching Salvo spell. I guess I just don't enjoy these very "swingy" powerful effects & units so much - when as I have seen, the game can be swingy enough even without them.
      I'm not keen on proxying though I'm afraid! I used to do that all the time in my youth. But I've realised now a huge part of the appeal of mini wargaming for me is the look & feel of it.

      Looking forward to watching more of your YT more intently now as I say, now that I've played the QS myself it will be even more interesting (although I still refer written reports for batreps personally, as I've done here, as I feel it's much easier to follow in a written format. But maybe I'm just too much of an old-timer!)
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)
    • very valid points, would deserve indepth comments, so sorry for hasty reply (using smartphone since am travelling atm)

      - multicombat: you're right, i think our rulemaking and lectoring staff (hallo @kisanis !) might want to try adding some short clarifications (pursuing as fleeing + extending charges by the minimum + destroying contacted fleeing units?)

      - finding new players besides Rob and introducing them to the game via VotA/TheBreach: couldnt agree more! in 15' they would get a grasp of shooting/charging/fighting/moving mechanics. this means that they can then enjoy the tactics of RNF battles even more. work on TheBreach is advancing slower than i hoped, but i should be able to honour the initial idea of delivery by February next year. btw, if im being late, it's only because im also working on something else that you, of all people, might actually enjoy quite a lot. but no spoilers... yet ; )

      - balance: well done on your internet communication tactics! : D id say that the more you focus on the victory scenario, the more you can appreciate armies like OnG. scoring darts (wolfriders) and extra redirecting character (witchdoctor) can be veeery useful. HbE Rymas are strong, but for example they live in fear of handgunners. EoS Knights are tanky, but the whole army is quite slow, so they can be countered (as you've just learnt!). and the list goes on for every faction... but of course things can be perfected. as i said, im afraid DH and WDG might need some tweaking. this will all be dealt with if, as you just did, the community helps us with some playtesting.

      (on this topic, i once was in Sheffield and had a great time there - if i ever happen to be in that area, i'll make sure i let you know!) (as many of my friends know, i am stupidly in love with the UK, so it's not excluded i might be there in the near future!)

      final thought: your partner positioned terrain in a very fun way! sometimes experienced players go for balanced but a bit boring solutions. if i were you, id let her draw a couple fun maps for your future games! ; )


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    • Wow I have no idea how you can manage to use this so well on a smartphone! I wouldn't even attempt that (kinda hate phones for any kind of typing out things) But good going and hopefully it's enhancing your travels :D (I actually don't know how these batreps look on a phone now that I think about it, although wordpress has some built in mobile support so hopefully it's ok!). Glad you like the UK and amazed you even know of Sheffield too! (it's not usually a tourist destination!) Glad you had a good time here, obviously I love it here as I chose to live here most of my life :) Let me know and maybe I will accept your fb add one day :P (Apologies, I'm cagey on fb and don't generally add people I've not met & known for a little while!).

      One other thing with multi-combat would be a simple line in the rules for where to position pursuing units should they end up overlapping each other. I do agree there's no way to make things as complex as the full rulebook.

      That reminds me, did we do this bit right?

      "Rob rolled a massive charge distance on his Spearmen as it happened and could easily make the charge, and could even wheel enough to position his spearmen block wherever they wanted to be along the Knights frontage. Rob chose to align himself far across to their right, meaning he could leave an open area of the unit potentially ‘chargeable’ next turn by his Knights"

      I think he was allowed to do that, in fact, re-reading the Charge movement rules, once they are ruled a successful charge, they would always be able to manoeuvre like this I think, regardless of how much movement they had, due to the unlimited forward movement. ie: wheel to face the exact contact point they want, and then move forward unlimited distance to hit it, then align to face as they like).


      Balance - yup I agree that army vs army does seem pretty good so far, I just don't personally like the way some powerful things affect and rather limit the tactics available in the game to this point in my experience. But that is also a taste thing I realise - some people will enjoy the really powerful unit or spell feeling. I was going to ask why the Goblin Witchdoctor had less HP than the other wizards, but it seems that is a thing in the main game too. Strange but okay!

      I totally agree re: my partner's scenic setup! :love: Hopefully will be able to do more of that in future. I'm gonna take some credit for the idea to ask a 3rd party to set it up though :D

      Very intrigued to find out what else you're working on too!
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)
    • being cagey on fb: agreed, that's a very sensible way of doing things. respect!

      charge repositioning: indeed this is possible (and should be used to your advantage)

      balance swings: remember that the Salvo is supposed to be one of the strongest spells in the QS basic rules, so you're right about that. which reminds me: the QS advanced, when delivered, should mitigate the necesary roughness of the simple premade lists. after all, you're essentially meant to play premade armies a few times. more balance and customisation and fun await, if you read and use the advanced rules and armylists... (not available yet, i know - so much more work to so, but my hands are tied here!) : (


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    • The Salvo: Yup I was fortunate my opponent didn't figure out in the first game that throwing max 5 dice at the Scorching Salvo was a good idea until later on, and on that turn I had 5 dispel dice and still managed to stop it.

      For future things, some kind of 1 page QS summary sheet (turn sequence etc) would be really handy, as it slowed us down a lot having to check that kind of thing and flick through the whole draft rulebook each time (also my fault I only printed out one copy and should've done two really in retrospect!).
      My gaming website: agoners.wordpress.com
      My gaming twitter: Agoners Gaming
      I currently can play for T9A: Orcs & Goblins, Empire of Sonnstahl (QS only)