Pinned ID General Chat

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    • Hard to measure the exact center.

      I would, if 360° shooting is kept, limit the shooting to rear and flank to the actual formation of the unit. 1 model wide able to shoot in each direction.

      I also don´t like the theoretical mechanic on it....it gives softcover because in imagination the unit is inside the tower.
      So...basically shooting would hit the tower and penetrate it to reach the models inside. Why has the tower soft cover itself then and also only 1 shot out of a salve of light shooting can hit it? (serious question, I know that the game rules dictate this, but it seems to be very unintuitive on the tower)


      Organ gun is the better cannon anyway, and vs non-fireproof units the flamecannon is pretty good, why would you use ballista and catapult?
      Organ gun needs to be somewhat exposed to be useful, so rather easy to charge and easy to be in range of magic.
      Flamecanon has clear disadvantages against single models or small units, and it is not useful when you need to target higher R and armor.
      Flamecanon is great for the points, but it´s main target is infantry, in best case R3 infantry with little armor, while stonethrower is useful against more different targets thanks to the big hit, and ballista is meant to threaten single models more than big units.
    • I doubt that 1-2" shorter will fix it.w Its range is problematic, yea, but it is not the worst to play against. Also there is no real need to change wording because people get caught out - they will learn after first mistake im pretty sure.


      But! In my opinion this unit ignore game too much.

      Los? Dont care, i have 360.
      Marching or moving? Dont care, qtf and march and shoot.
      Low movement? Witchcraft or speed to the rescue.
      Durablity? Perma soft cover, R4 3+ bodies 5++ against flaming and bastion itself have 8hp.
      Cowboys? Watch out for crush attack and static cr.
      Troubles with wounding? Lots of hit plus flamings/flammable combo which opponent sometimes cant counter in any way.
      Slaves dying on 1 while giving battlefocus on ranged? Reroll 1s on short.
      Dangerous tests on wall? Wall breaker. Ruins? Still got slaves for that.

      All these rules stacking result in really powerful unit, mostly from core! Amazing.
      Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
    • Ciara wrote:


      Cowboys? Watch out for crush attack and static cr.
      Good! Cowboys can go die in a fire :P.


      Ciara wrote:


      All these rules stacking result in really powerful unit, mostly from core! Amazing.
      And here I thought people wanted core to be viable.

      "Make core viable"

      *ID do it*

      "No not like that!"

      Lord of the Hobby

      The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
    • viable and over the top are two different things. :)
      I hardly find a shooting unit that is better (from pure elite status, no matter of the points, that will change for sure) in any other book.
      And if there are some, they share a limitation that matters, while these core shooters have a lmitation that is no limitation at all. (cheapest way to include 60 is more than core requirement)
      (at least as long you don´t plan to include the taurukhs with shooting weapons)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by berti ().

    • I'm still collecting game experience against ID, but here are some ideas that might be considered.
      I like the ideas of the new book, so I tried to preserve the fluff of things.
      Blunderbus:
      Range 18″, Shots 1, Quick to Fire,
      -Shooting at short range Str.4 AP 1,failed to-hit rolls of ‘1’ when shooting at Short Range must be rerolled.
      -Shooting at long range: Str 3, AP 0, Area Attack (2×1)
      The idea behind a blunderbus is a shotgun, a weapon that can be devastating at short range, but the bullets spread out wide at long range, hitting more targets with less effect.

      Bastion:
      As the idea is that the shooters are inside the bastion, thus getting soft cover and 360° shooting, they should also suffer the ill effects of being inside a slow moving tower:
      -The number of ranks the unit has is halved (round down) when calculating steadfast
      - the unit cannot move after a reform.
    • @Tyranno
      I think the nuance might be this (I could be wrong of course, just going off past conversations/observations):
      People want core to be viable/powerful in a way that respects the fundamental game concept (because core).

      E.g. SE heath hunter spam in early 2.0 was *core*, but that didn't stop it being (seen as) unfriendly/problematic.


      In my view, the the heavy focus on shooting (particularly move+shoot) in core in the new ID LAB is not a good way to get "powerful" core, because of how it interacts with core in other books and what it incentivises in the ID book at the 4500pt list level.

      This is subjective on some level of course, and points can do a lot to mitigate it.
      But I think the objections are to "core rule breaking/mitigating" in core, more than to viable core per se.
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    • berti wrote:

      Hard to measure the exact center.

      I would, if 360° shooting is kept, limit the shooting to rear and flank to the actual formation of the unit. 1 model wide able to shoot in each direction.

      I also don´t like the theoretical mechanic on it....it gives softcover because in imagination the unit is inside the tower.
      So...basically shooting would hit the tower and penetrate it to reach the models inside. Why has the tower soft cover itself then and also only 1 shot out of a salve of light shooting can hit it? (serious question, I know that the game rules dictate this, but it seems to be very unintuitive on the tower)



      IIRC a mechanic was proposed where the unit had Hard Cover, but missed shots would hit the Bastion, and another where shots would be distributed between the Bastion and the unit, mostly on to the Bastion.


      There are pros and cons to any decision. I doubt they'd be more popular ("HARD COVER!?!" "I don't want to shoot the stupid tower with my crossbows, why do I have to waste my shots?" or whatever).



      Organ gun is the better cannon anyway, and vs non-fireproof units the flamecannon is pretty good, why would you use ballista and catapult?
      Organ gun needs to be somewhat exposed to be useful, so rather easy to charge and easy to be in range of magic.Flamecanon has clear disadvantages against single models or small units, and it is not useful when you need to target higher R and armor.
      Flamecanon is great for the points, but it´s main target is infantry, in best case R3 infantry with little armor, while stonethrower is useful against more different targets thanks to the big hit, and ballista is meant to threaten single models more than big units.

      Background Team

    • I am aware the bastion rules are based on the rulebook rules. But this is a thing where exceptions to the rules would fit the mechanic better in my opinion. (I am not sure, but are there not mixed units in saurian book that have some rules that could fit?

      Propably some kind of normal shooting, but random distribute shooting that is aimed at the unit would make more sense.
      Perhaps only aiming at the tower in addition. (so 1-4 hits tower, 5-6 the unit).

      It is a bit weird that the tower also get´s soft cover. (not a thing on a canon, but elfes will love it on their spear throwers)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by berti ().

    • Tyranno wrote:

      Good! Cowboys can go die in a fire :P.
      Why, you dont like cowboys? Did elven balistas killed your cowboys in cc too? ( ಠ ͜ʖಠ)

      Tyranno wrote:

      And here I thought people wanted core to be viable.
      "Make core viable"

      *ID do it*

      "No not like that!"
      As berti said. Viable is nice, but it shouldn't be too powerful.
      Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
    • Because of my tag, I try not to comment on these kinds of discussions too often. But as an ID player, I think it's worth pointing out that the situation presented involves 900ish points buffed by magic in what sounds like an ideal situation for maximum effect. 900 points of just about anything can shred 600 points of something else under optimized circumstances. Let's not raise our pitchforks quite yet.

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    • Tyranno wrote:


      Ciara wrote:

      All these rules stacking result in really powerful unit, mostly from core! Amazing.
      And here I thought people wanted core to be viable.
      "Make core viable"

      *ID do it*

      "No not like that!"
      I feel you. Ud chariots were also viable 2 years ago. Later they decided to change their rules and make them more expensive, as if they did not want viable core units in the game, right?
    • Ciara wrote:

      Why, you dont like cowboys? Did elven balistas killed your cowboys in cc too? ( ಠ ͜ʖಠ)
      No I just hate hero-hammer and the idea of a single small character being able to hold up a big block of troops almost indefinitly.

      (Just to clarify. Single guy on a large mount, that feels logical. Single guy on a horse; no)

      Lord of the Hobby

      The Great Horde of Chaos <-My hobby blog Tyranno's Ride into the Steppes <-My Makhar hobby/army-list blog
    • Grimbold Blackhammer wrote:

      Because of my tag, I try not to comment on these kinds of discussions too often. But as an ID player, I think it's worth pointing out that the situation presented involves 900ish points buffed by magic in what sounds like an ideal situation for maximum effect. 900 points of just about anything can shred 600 points of something else under optimized circumstances. Let's not raise our pitchforks quite yet.
      1) it does not need magic

      2) it does so from safe distance of 27" shooting

      3) many units behave similarily when ancountered with bb area shooting

      4) it is 1 turn, and not "that" optimised circumstances. People shoot units in the open all the time, as units that want to charge cannot always afford to hide behinde cover, when they need to get in range. These are normal circumstances
    • No I just hate hero-hammer and the idea of a single small character being able to hold up a big block of troops almost indefinitly.

      (Just to clarify. Single guy on a large mount, that feels logical. Single guy on a horse; no)

      and what about an unbreakable R7 train? dishing out autohits
      Doesn´t cost much more than the single charakter too, when you take protection and HP into accoutn train is even better.

      Note: I also don´t like herohammer, but I also don´t like the single models outside hero´s to be so dominant in comparison to normal R&F units.
    • Shino wrote:

      1) it does not need magic
      2) it does so from safe distance of 27" shooting

      3) many units behave similarily when ancountered with bb area shooting

      4) it is 1 turn, and not "that" optimised circumstances. People shoot units in the open all the time, as units that want to charge cannot always afford to hide behinde cover, when they need to get in range. These are normal circumstances
      It doesn't "need" magic but he had it which gave him a double-Flaming Attacks which I'm sure helped against a unit that only uses an Aegis save for protection. And while it does have the movement to go straight forward and shoot up to 27", the range is really only 18". But my point is 900 points of Handgunners, Dread Elf Crossbowmen, Dwarves with Crossbows, or whatnot that rolls above average is really going to kick the stuffing out of just about any 600 point unit. Regardless, that's just my opinion. I'll step back out and let ya'll continue :)

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    • Grimbold Blackhammer wrote:

      It doesn't "need" magic but he had it which gave him a double-Flaming Attacks which I'm sure helped against a unit that only uses an Aegis save for protection. And while it does have the movement to go straight forward and shoot up to 27", the range is really only 18". But my point is 900 points of Handgunners, Dread Elf Crossbowmen, Dwarves with Crossbows, or whatnot that rolls above average is really going to kick the stuffing out of just about any 600 point unit. Regardless, that's just my opinion. I'll step back out and let ya'll continue :)
      Yea, you dont need magic but you almost always have it since is nice to have. You also have acces to flammable tokens cause you take vassal cav for redirecting purpose etc.

      The point is, all these weapons you mentioned (does anyone play dread crossbows anyway? Arent they bad?) have easy counterplays. Dread xbows after moving on long they hit on 6. Only synergies are reroll to hit from divination, hereditary (with insane casting value), cosmo #1 while body is still r3 with bad save (isnt it amazing that they have 29" total range while ID bus is 27"?). Xbows and handguns are also unwieldy. You have to move? You can march anyway since you will hit badly anyway and either body is r3 with no save (imperium) or not so numerous (dwarves). And they still will probably do less wounds than blunder tower unit.
      Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.